[Ezio]

Originally Posted by snipe

BMW have six cylinders since 1919. I'm always disappointed when I see, hear or drive a BMW with a V8. It's just wrong, like a Maserati diesel is wrong. Right engine at a wrong place.

a 6 cylinder simply doesn't cut it anymore for some cars though. a M5 needs a bigger engine. they were not making cars this heavy in the past 100 years. if you want a N/A engine to make enough power to compete it needs to be a at least V8. thats only if you want N/A

yes i agree BMW is known for there I6 engines.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Ezio

a 6 cylinder simply doesn't cut it anymore for some cars though. a M5 needs a bigger engine. they were not making cars this heavy in the past 100 years. if you want a N/A engine to make enough power to compete it needs to be a at least V8. thats only if you want N/A

yes i agree BMW is known for there I6 engines.

Yes at this moment in time to have enough power and tq and remain NA you need at least a V8. Moreover, it needs to be a big V8... I would say at minimum 5.0L but preferably closer to 6.0L. Even for a performance car, if you dd a car with that type of engine, do you really want to deal with 15 mpg? I sure as hell don't and the answer then is simple.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by timboslice

Going down whilst breaking their all time sales record in a month? Right...

As for the 4 banger turbo comments, this engine is faster than our old e92 328 in every single way AND delivers a ton more MPG. I don't see the problem here.

A 4 cylinder motor in a 55K 528 is laughable at best.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Yes at this moment in time to have enough power and tq and remain NA you need at least a V8. Moreover, it needs to be a big V8... I would say at minimum 5.0L but preferably closer to 6.0L. Even for a performance car, if you dd a car with that type of engine, do you really want to deal with 15 mpg? I sure as hell don't and the answer then is simple.

simple fact. a C7 corvette 6.2 L V8 N/A making 460HP and 450TQ WILL match a M4s 3.0L turbo engine all day long with MPG.


the days of V8s being worse on gas is outdated thinking. get with the times.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Ezio

simple fact. a C7 corvette 6.2 L V8 N/A making 460HP and 450TQ WILL match a M4s 3.0L turbo engine all day long with MPG.


the days of V8s being worse on gas is outdated thinking. get with the times.

On the hwy yes, not in any other scenario. The corvette is geared very tall in 6th... Have fun driving that thing around town and getting good mpg... no v8 in the world does that. DI can only do so much.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by ASAP

On the hwy yes, not in any other scenario. The corvette is geared very tall in 6th... Have fun driving that thing around town and getting good mpg... no v8 in the world does that. DI can only do so much.

i think you would be surprised what a light weight car with a big V8 can get in the city. when the engine is barely turning on a big V8 with the right gears.

i think in the coming years with American companies staying with V8s. we might start to see a different light. they have a bad rep atm.

thats all i am saying.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Ezio

i think you would be surprised what a light weight car with a big V8 can get in the city. when the engine is barely turning on a big V8 with the right gears.

i think in the coming years with American companies staying with V8s. we might start to see a different light. they have a bad rep atm.

thats all i am saying.

Well fair enough... but the M3/M4 is not a lightweight sports car with a large V8 that revs to barely 7K.

If the m3 got a motor that revs that low, there would be an absolute uproar for example in that arena. Also, to get a motor to rev that high, it can't be that large of a displacement typically hence automatically less tq, lower mpg and so forth so forth. It's a complicated scenario.

The turbo motors resolve almost all issues in one. You can even make a turbo motor sound good, the only real concern is responsiveness which we can't speak on yet in terms of the new m3.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Well fair enough... but the M3/M4 is not a lightweight sports car with a large V8 that revs to barely 7K.

If the m3 got a motor that revs that low, there would be an absolute uproar for example in that arena. Also, to get a motor to rev that high, it can't be that large of a displacement typically hence automatically less tq, lower mpg and so forth so forth. It's a complicated scenario.

The turbo motors resolve almost all issues in one. You can even make a turbo motor sound good, the only real concern is responsiveness which we can't speak on yet in terms of the new m3.

as a V8 m3 owner i agree. i am a V8 guy all the way. i wanted a V8 engine car that had luxury and class over getting a corvette or mustang. although i find the new twin turbo V8s found in the M5 to not be to my likely sound wise. the turbos mute to much sound. i would say more so turbo engines struggle to make good sound over N/A or even a supercharged engine. although some turbo cars have sounded good i will admit.

but really thinking about it. the new turbo 6 coming simply fits the bill better for what the car is (M3). for me it doesn't. I will most likely move into a car that has a V8 and without turbos. although a S/C is ok as it doesn't effect engine noise.

i can respect the fact that some people prefer a 4 or 6 cylinder engine noise. as i pefer a V8 growl

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Ezio

as a V8 m3 owner i agree. i am a V8 guy all the way. i wanted a V8 engine car that had luxury and class over getting a corvette or mustang. although i find the new twin turbo V8s found in the M5 to not be to my likely sound wise. the turbos mute to much sound. i am would say more so turbo engines struggle to make good sound over N/A or even a supercharged engine. although some turbo cars have sounded good i will admit.

but really thinking about it. the new turbo 6 coming simply fits the bill better for what the car is (M3). for me it doesn't. I will most likely move into a car that has a V8 and without turbos. although a S/C is ok as it doesn't effect engine noise.

i can respect the fact that some people prefer a 4 or 6 cylinder engine noise. as i pefer a V8 growl

Well, outside of the M3, I only know of one car that fits the bill but I warn you; it costs 3x as much. haha

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by ASAP

A 4 cylinder motor in a 55K 528 is laughable at best.

I think a 4 cylinder motor in a 528i is sufficient at the price point. You're still getting 240 HP and more torque than the previous N/A inline 6 all while getting better mileage.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

I think a 4 cylinder motor in a 528i is sufficient at the price point. You're still getting 240 HP and more torque than the previous N/A inline 6 all while getting better mileage.

I am going to pretend that this is a joke, a 228i also gets this motor for half the price.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I am going to pretend that this is a joke, a 228i also gets this motor for half the price.

Does that mean a 535i is laughable too? After all, you could get a M235i for significantly cheaper too. Despite this, I doubt anyone cross shops between the two.

Your logic, basically, makes no sense at all. The motor isn't the only factor in determining the price of a car.

In addition, by virtually every measurable performance and efficiency metric aside from "displacement" and "number of cylinders", the N20 beats out the old inline six engine it replaces. Despite that, it's "laughable". Sounds reasonable.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Does that mean a 535i is laughable too? After all, you could get a M235i for significantly cheaper too. Despite this, I doubt anyone cross shops between the two.

Your logic, basically, makes no sense at all. The motor isn't the only factor in determining the price of a car.

In addition, by virtually every measurable performance and efficiency metric aside from "displacement" and "number of cylinders", the N20 beats out the old inline six engine it replaces. Despite that, it's "laughable". Sounds reasonable.

No, the N55 is sufficient in power to tow a 4300 LB car and has IMHO acceptable levels of NVH for a car of this class. The 4 banger NVH is a pure joke and it sounds like a diesel at low speeds and rpms. An M235i is considered a premium model and that engine is retuned for as a performance variant... but that is completely aside because at least for the US market, I would never offer a 528i... especially at the price point or with a 4 banger when its Mercedes E350 rival has an NA6 with more power and TQ. Everyone knows the 4 banger is a joke and brushes it aside for the badge.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by ASAP

No, the N55 is sufficient in power to tow a 4300 LB car and has IMHO acceptable levels of NVH for a car of this class. The 4 banger NVH is a pure joke and it sounds like a diesel at low speeds and rpms.

thats something we can agree on!

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by ASAP

No, the N55 is sufficient in power to tow a 4300 LB car and has IMHO acceptable levels of NVH for a car of this class. The 4 banger NVH is a pure joke and it sounds like a diesel at low speeds and rpms. An M235i is considered a premium model and that engine is retuned for as a performance variant... but that is completely aside because at least for the US market, I would never offer a 528i... especially at the price point or with a 4 banger when its Mercedes E350 rival has an NA6 with more power and TQ. Everyone knows the 4 banger is a joke and brushes it aside for the badge.

For starters, the E350 rivals the 535i, the E250 would be the closest competitor to the 528i...which has a turbocharged 4 cylinder diesel. The E Class pricing model is unusual though as the E250 costs approximately the same as an E350.

The N20 is sufficient enough for the average person for merging and passing hence why you see so many 528i's on the road vs. the 535i and 550i. The people who go for the 528i probably rarely go wide open throttle in it I'm sure. Do they buy it just for the badge? I'm sure some do, others just like the luxury and size and don't need the extra power. The NVH of the N20 is fine until you get into the upper reaches of the RPM band. At least that's the case of my co-worker's 328i with the same motor.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the power wouldn't suit my needs for such a large vehicle but I wouldn't call it a joke.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

For starters, the E350 rivals the 535i, the E250 would be the closest competitor to the 528i...which has a turbocharged 4 cylinder diesel. The E Class pricing model is unusual though as the E250 costs approximately the same as an E350.

The N20 is sufficient enough for the average person for merging and passing hence why you see so many 528i's on the road vs. the 535i and 550i. The people who go for the 528i probably rarely go wide open throttle in it I'm sure. Do they buy it just for the badge? I'm sure some do, others just like the luxury and size and don't need the extra power. The NVH of the N20 is fine until you get into the upper reaches of the RPM band. At least that's the case of my co-worker's 328i with the same motor.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the power wouldn't suit my needs for such a large vehicle but I wouldn't call it a joke.

The NVH is unacceptable for a car of the 5 series class and price. The power, well let's say a civic si has 200 hp at a weight of under 3000 lbs. I simply don't agree.

[CedarZ4]

Originally Posted by Ezio

simple fact. a C7 corvette 6.2 L V8 N/A making 460HP and 450TQ WILL match a M4s 3.0L turbo engine all day long with MPG.


the days of V8s being worse on gas is outdated thinking. get with the times.

The C7 has cylinder deactivation and not exactly sure how they did their MPGs, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did it exclusively in that mode in which case their 17/19 MPG is actually quite a shame, as it's only running 4 cylinders.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Ezio

i think you would be surprised what a light weight car with a big V8 can get in the city. when the engine is barely turning on a big V8 with the right gears.

i think in the coming years with American companies staying with V8s. we might start to see a different light. they have a bad rep atm.

thats all i am saying.

You're wrong on this - it's the extra tall 6th gear that provides the fuel economy benefit you believe the Vette has.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

You're wrong on this - it's the extra tall 6th gear that provides the fuel economy benefit you believe the Vette has.

I think gears have a big part. But also the fact that they are making better v8 engines than before. With mix city and highway driving I strongly feel you can see 2x mpg from a c7 corvette. Just to put this out there also. I am not some vetted fan boy. I could have bought a c7. I picked a slower and more fuel thirsty m3 because It's what I felt I wanted more.

[FriskyDingo]

Corvettes get good mileage because of their gearing, aerodynamics, and weight. They have more than enough drawbacks to outweigh it. Besides, fuel economy shouldn't be a very big priority with performance cars.


As for the topic, as someone who owns an E36 318i and E90 335i, I completely agree on BMW watering down their products as of late. I've recently driven a new 328i and 528i both, and they feel and drive like a nice Camry. Artificial, overboosted, lifeless steering; floaty ride; less solid feeling. They just don't feel 'special'. It my help their bottom line right now, but it's eventually going to come back and haunt them.

I will say the N20 is a gem, and deserves no criticism. It's smooth, powerful, efficient, and moddable. Paired with the ZF 8AT, it makes for a great powertrain. It's just a shame the rest of the car is so humdrum. But it looks as if the new 2 is a good car, the new M3/4 is right around the corner, and the next 5 is supposed to be lighter. So maybe there's still hope.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ASAP

A 4 cylinder motor in a 55K 528 is laughable at best.

Just have a thought for most of the 5-series users in the UK and across Europe. The 520d (yes 2.0d 4-cylinder diesel) is the only model many users would even consider, or even look at, running bigger engines (particularly petrol engines) are off the buying radar for fuel and/or tax costs. The 2.0-litre engines allow users to get into a 5-series.

BMW are clearly catering for the bread and butter buyers/users, plus BMW themselves have to meet manufacturers emission targets.

Even the M-cars are not immune to running costs, this side of the pond. We are very fuel consumption conscious. There is often a pain barrier on mpg, even for M-cars.

HighlandPete

[P1]

If I could afford them, I'd have a Q7 and an A5 or A6 in my garage. But they are pricey and there's less of them, so an X5 and a 135i it is. For now.