[r3dbimmer89]

Originally Posted by JNoSol

This is good. Love their design, much better looking than Tesla.

Design wise maybe...but Tesla blows Fisker out of the water performance wise...no comparison

[MalibuBimmer]

Fisker originally wanted to make the car all electric but found he didn't have the battery capacity for long range. Thus it became a hybrid. And one that weighed as much as an Escalade. Yet another fail for the guy who has done nothing well since leaving Aston Martin (except raising money for his failed projects).

[lexae]

Failure is not a bad thing. I'm happy to see that he is making a return. Partnering with tesla might have been a better options. Especially since all the patents are readily available

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I know I do this all the time... and I currently own 3 BMWs (4 total life time) and been around BMW cars for nearly 35 years, but I find this quote quite interesting when it comes to hybrids:

"Throughout automotive history, BMW has been globally recognized for engineering and manufacturing world-class products. They are a proven technology leader and renowned for conceiving and delivering groundbreaking innovations."

Any of the hybrid driveline parts BMW may supply under this agreement are far from world class and technology-leading. Despite what BMW may want you to think, BMW is so far from any leadership position regarding hybrid technology it is laughable. While GM, Honda, Toyota were developing hybrid driveline technology (Toyota's basically derived from 1970's TRW-Automotive technology) 15 - 20 years ago, BMW was the industry leader in paying the highest fines to the EPA for not meeting CAFE regulations. If you want to really find an innovative hybrid drivetrain go look that the Chevy Volt I and now Gen II drivetrain; both recognized by the Society of Automotive engineers as one the most complex drivetrain used in a production vehicle.

To wit just a few innovations: the electric starter, fuel injection, HID head lamps, air bags, ABS, direct fuel injection, Atkinson Cycle, VTEC (VANOS), blah blah blah, none developed nor introduced into production vehicles by BMW.

This organization may disagree with you.
http://www.ukipme.com/engineoftheyear/results.php?id=2

[Z K]

Originally Posted by lexae

Failure is not a bad thing. I'm happy to see that he is making a return. Partnering with tesla might have been a better options. Especially since all the patents are readily available

It's not Fisker returning. It's the Chinese Wanxiang Group (they purchased Fisker's rights) who is bringing Fisker cars back into production.

[adc]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

I am. I'm a lawyer. I've never gone bankrupt, never lost money of investors, never had my firm acquired at bargain basement prices by the Chinese.

You've never had any investors if you're a lawyer. You've never had a magnificent vision, didnt follow through against all odds, to establish a brand new manufacturing concern of incredible complexity.

From the safety of routine and following a well trodden path, it becomes very easy to criticize those who dare to dream, and fail.

But this thread wasn't about me, it was about Fisker and Karma, Henrik.

Actually it was about the new Karma car manufacturer and their vision for the future, until you felt obligated to rain on Fisker's parade. Whatever floats your boat.

[MalibuBimmer]

Originally Posted by adc

You've never had any investors if you're a lawyer. You've never had a magnificent vision, didnt follow through against all odds, to establish a brand new manufacturing concern of incredible complexity.

From the safety of routine and following a well trodden path, it becomes very easy to criticize those who dare to dream, and fail.

You have no idea whether I've had investors or not. But we all know that Fisker has run two failed companies, taken hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer money and flushed it away, and has lost tens of millions more for his credulous investors. He's actually made Bricklin and DeLorean look like Henry Ford. As I mentioned before, since he left Aston Martin the only thing he's done well is to raise money, pay himself handsomely, and lose everyone else's investment. I wouldn't call that a "magnificent vision." I'd call it close to securities fraud.

The Karma was a disaster when Fisker decided it had to weigh as much as a Cadillac Escalade and needed a large ICE to power the batteries. It was a flawed concept but he didn't pull the plug on it because he wanted to remain employed as long as he could.

While Fisker designed the lines of cars well, he was a failure at running a car company. And his first effort, to re-skin Mercedes SLs and BMW 6 series, demonstrated that he didn't know how to run a company. So he persisted. And brought in investors who were blinded by nice lines rather than paying attention to an incompetent manager.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

This organization may disagree with you.
http://www.ukipme.com/engineoftheyear/results.php?id=2

Yeah, I'll stick with real automotive engineers when it comes to assessing drivetrains...

The i8 has an electric motor driving the front axle and an engine driving the rear w/ a bunch of software in between. BFD - like some modern greenie 2-engine Hot Wheels toy car - LOL. GM actually puts the two drive technologies together in a compact drive unit in a car that costs $40K not $150K. BMW's actual equivalent hybrid to the Volt, the i3, has a 2-cylinder motorcycle engine designed to get you back home to your solar powered i3 charging station, and hopefully there are not many hills in between. The Volt will drive in gas mode as far as across town or across country and not have to stop every hour for gas.

I'm sure you'll harp on the i8's performance, yeah, well, I'd get a C7 Vette for $70K and spend the other $80K on gasoline for it for the next 25 years.

Like I said, my wife and I have been driving BMWs daily since 1988 and my association with the brand goes back to the late 70's. I think they make some great cars, but to believe all the hype that comes out of BMWs PR department is something you need to take with a grain of salt.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Yeah, I'll stick with real automotive engineers when it comes to assessing drivetrains...

The i8 has an electric motor driving the front axle and an engine driving the rear w/ a bunch of software in between. BFD - like some modern greenie 2-engine Hot Wheels toy car - LOL. GM actually puts the two drive technologies together in a compact drive unit in a car that costs $40K not $150K. BMW's actual equivalent hybrid to the Volt, the i3, has a 2-cylinder motorcycle engine designed to get you back home to your solar powered i3 charging station, and hopefully there are not many hills in between. The Volt will drive in gas mode as far as across town or across country and not have to stop every hour for gas.

I'm sure you'll harp on the i8's performance, yeah, well, I'd get a C7 Vette for $70K and spend the other $80K on gasoline for it for the next 25 years.

Like I said, my wife and I have been driving BMWs daily since 1988 and my association with the brand goes back to the late 70's. I think they make some great cars, but to believe all the hype that comes out of BMWs PR department is something you need to take with a grain of salt.

LOL.
Many of the voters ARE REAL ENGINEERS. For example, I don't know if you have heard of a little publication named CAR AND DRIVER. The writing staff is littered with mechanical engineers.

I appreciate what the SAE says about the VOLT and I have driven one, myself. Impressive technology as is the ability to sync 2 completely independent drivetrains in multiple modes, on the fly while altering the deployment of power. Let's be realistic...electric motors and their use is not special. Like many things, the devil is in the details and this powertrain and it's dynamic management and deployment of energy is nothing short of amazing. I am a real-world user who puts serious mileage on cars and I am stunned each time I drive the car.

Additionally, I have owned german cars since I was 18 years old and grew up in a Mercedes family. We came to own BMWs when the local MBZ would not cover a repair on my dads E320 when the vehicle was one day out of warranty in 2003. Since 2006 I have personally owned 6, 4 of which are still on the ground. My M6 and i8 are both Int'l Engine of the Year award winners. The award is special and prestigious and generally indicates that quite a bit of serious engineering went into the design of the awardees.
Dismissing the award that went to the S85 (an engineering masterpiece) for multiple years may indicate less than complete knowledge and appreciation of drivetrain engineering.

BTW. On the highlighted portion...the i8's version of the B38 has an electric motor incorporated into the ICE. And please show me the GM engine that can develop 152bHp per liter.

Cheers-mk

[adc]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

You have no idea whether I've had investors or not

.

Well did you?

But we all know that Fisker has run two failed companies, taken hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer money and flushed it away, and has lost tens of millions more for his credulous investors. He's actually made Bricklin and DeLorean look like Henry Ford. As I mentioned before, since he left Aston Martin the only thing he's done well is to raise money, pay himself handsomely, and lose everyone else's investment. I wouldn't call that a "magnificent vision." I'd call it close to securities fraud.

Well as they say, history is written by the winners, and he definitely failed in the end. But his vision was not to pay himself handsomely, but rather to create something new and unique. He didn't get involved with cocaine like DeLorean so you're just being mean. I meant successful.

The Karma was a disaster when Fisker decided it had to weigh as much as a Cadillac Escalade and needed a large ICE to power the batteries. It was a flawed concept but he didn't pull the plug on it because he wanted to remain employed as long as he could.

Not really. He piggy backed onto GM's technology knowing that GM was using it in the Volt, and that they would develop and sustain it for the future, just like they are doing now. What did him in was the collapse of his battery supplier, and he didn't have the deep pockets to re-engineer for another supplier, it's as simple as that.

Tesla also went through some truly shaky times, but they survived because Elon Musk has poured ungodly amounts of cash into the business. The world is waiting with baited breath to see when Tesla will become profitable, it's extremely difficult to create such large scale enterprises from scratch.

While Fisker designed the lines of cars well, he was a failure at running a car company. And his first effort, to re-skin Mercedes SLs and BMW 6 series, demonstrated that he didn't know how to run a company.

Not really. His first effort was to raise awareness, funds and start building expertise for the second venture. It was never meant for long term.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

LOL.
Many of the voters ARE REAL ENGINEERS. For example, I don't know if you have heard of a little publication named CAR AND DRIVER. The writing staff is littered with mechanical engineers.

I appreciate what the SAE says about the VOLT and I have driven one, myself. Impressive technology as is the ability to sync 2 completely independent drivetrains in multiple modes, on the fly while altering the deployment of power. Let's be realistic...electric motors and their use is not special. Like many things, the devil is in the details and this powertrain and it's dynamic management and deployment of energy is nothing short of amazing. I am a real-world user who puts serious mileage on cars and I am stunned each time I drive the car.

Additionally, I have owned german cars since I was 18 years old and grew up in a Mercedes family. We came to own BMWs when the local MBZ would not cover a repair on my dads E320 when the vehicle was one day out of warranty in 2003. Since 2006 I have personally owned 6, 4 of which are still on the ground. My M6 and i8 are both Int'l Engine of the Year award winners. The award is special and prestigious and generally indicates that quite a bit of serious engineering went into the design of the awardees.
Dismissing the award that went to the S85 (an engineering masterpiece) for multiple years may indicate less than complete knowledge and appreciation of drivetrain engineering.

BTW. On the highlighted portion...the i8's version of the B38 has an electric motor incorporated into the ICE. And please show me the GM engine that can develop 152bHp per liter.

Cheers-mk

Automobile Magazine and thier mechincal engineering editor is the source that SAE thinks the the Volt Gen 2 drivetrain is the most complex they've seen. I'll double check it later but I believe the electric motor in the i8 rear is basically a copy of Honda's IMA design, which came out over 16 years ago IIRC. But we're getting off point. You are discussing engines specifically, I am adressing claims of BMW leadership though out the spectrum of automotive technology. BMW didn't have any hybrid drivetrain 16 years ago, especially in unit production. And if the price point of the vehicle is $150,000 there's plenty of room to gain 152 BHP per liter. I'm just not that impressed.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Automobile Magazine and thier mechincal engineering editor is the source that SAE thinks the the Volt Gen 2 drivetrain is the most complex they've seen. I'll double check it later but I believe the electric motor in the i8 rear is basically a copy of Honda's IMA design, which came out over 16 years ago IIRC. But we're getting off point. You are discussing engines specifically, I am adressing claims of BMW leadership though out the spectrum of automotive technology. BMW didn't have any hybrid drivetrain 16 years ago, especially in unit production. And if the price point of the vehicle is $150,000 there's plenty of room to gain 152 BHP per liter. I'm just not that impressed.

Well.
The V Gen 2 is a semi-closed loop system that simply consist of an ICE to maintain the charge of the battery system via a generator with regen through the drive motor, as well. BFD. Anyone can design this.

The price point is not driven by the drive train but by the overall engineering of the entire vehicle. I own an E63 M6 and have friends with the entire gamut of auto's from the McLaren P1 down. One of the P1 owners, an engineer, states that the i8 is amazing in that it delivers an advanced power train for $135K. Please use this reference to keep it in perspective: The next vehicle price point for this drivetrain and basic construction is the Porsche 918. I built one out for sh**s and giggles and came out with a delivered cost of $945K.

I used this analogy before in another post but this use of CF in an advanced drivetrain for a price point of $150K in a vehicle that can be driven daily AND has a warranty is nothing short of earth shattering. It is similar to the democratization of horsepower in the eighties. After the fuel crisis of the 70s everything was anemic in power and the only cars with serious power were out of reach to the normal buyer. The Japanese came along and turned this on it's ear with a few great cars joined by the '84 Corvette. Horsepower to the masses.

I have a close friend who acquired a Ferrari about 18 months ago. He sold it because he underestimated the $25K per year that it takes to keep it on the road. When I purchased my i8 I performed a similar calculation and determined that over a 4 year period the i8 will actually cost me about $60K less in operating expenses than almost any similarly priced offering on the secondary market. Again, a no brainer. Dig deeper and you will see that the i8 is a paradigm shattering car.

Cheers-mk

P.S. BMW has won the award 62 times since it's inception in 1999, 7 times overall. VW+Porsche+Audi is in second place with 34 awards. GM has been awarded the prize 3 times. And only once for any of the VOLT engines and exactly never in the overall category. This is not technical leadership.

[VMRWheels]

This actually sounds interesting. Looking forward to hearing more of the details. Wondering if there will be any similarities to the i8 drivetrain.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Well.
The V Gen 2 is a semi-closed loop system that simply consist of an ICE to maintain the charge of the battery system via a generator with regen through the drive motor, as well. BFD. Anyone can design this.

The price point is not driven by the drive train but by the overall engineering of the entire vehicle. I own and E63 M6 and have friends with the entire gamut of auto's from the McLaren P1 down. One of the P1 owners, an engineer, states that the i8 is amazing in that it delivers an advanced power train for $135K. Please use this reference to keep it in perspective: The next vehicle price point for this drivetrain and basic construction is the Porsche 918. I built one out for sh**s and giggles and came out with a delivered cost of $945K.

I used this analogy before in another post but this use of CF in an advanced drivetrain for a price point of $150K in a vehicle that can be driven daily AND has a warranty is nothing short of earth shattering. It is similar to the democratization of horsepower in the eighties. After the fuel crisis of the 70s everything was anemic in power and the only cars with serious power were out of reach to the normal buyer. The Japanese came along and turned this on it's ear with a few great cars joined by the '84 Corvette. Horsepower to the masses.

I have a close friend who acquired a Ferrari about 18 months ago. He sold it because he underestimated the $25K per year that it takes to keep it on the road. When I purchased my i8 I performed a similar calculation and determined that over a 4 year period the i8 will actually cost me about $60K less in operating expenses than almost any similarly priced offering on the secondary market. Again, a no brainer. Dig deeper and you will see that the i8 is a paradigm shattering car.

Cheers-mk

P.S. BMW has won the award 62 times since it's inception in 1999, 7 times overall. VW+Porsche+Audi is in second place with 34 awards. GM has been awarded the prize 3 times. And only once for any of the VOLT engines and exactly never in the overall category. This is not technical leadership.

The Model T was a paradigm shattering car. It allowed people in mass to shift from horse-based transportation to automobile transportation in under a decade. It completely changed the economic earning power and eventually labor rights of the American factory worker (although Ford was the last to unionize). It completely changed the way most products thereinafter were designed and developed for moving assembly line manufacturing. It completely transformed the worlds landscape with the development of paved roads. It made Henry Ford the wealthiest man in the world. At one point the Ford Motor Company had 85% of the world's automotive market.

And actually the Volt Gen 2 uses a double planetary gearset to allow the wheels to be powered by one or both of the electric motors and the engine as well. It's great you have a bunch of rich friends that can afford expensive automobiles, not sure what that has to do with the discussion.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The Model T was a paradigm shattering car. It allowed people in mass to shift from horse-based transportation to automobile transportation in under a decade. It completely changed the economic earning power and eventually labor rights of the American factory worker (although Ford was the last to unionize). It completely changed the way most products thereinafter were designed and developed for moving assembly line manufacturing. It completely transformed the worlds landscape with the development of paved roads. It made Henry Ford the wealthiest man in the world. At one point the Ford Motor Company had 85% of the world's automotive market.

And actually the Volt Gen 2 uses a double planetary gearset to allow the wheels to be powered by one or both of the electric motors and the engine as well. It's great you have a bunch of rich friends that can afford expensive automobiles, not sure what that has to do with the discussion.

Nowhere above do you discuss the actual fact that BMW has been the most awarded manufacturer for the International Engine of the Year award since it's inception. It flies in the face of your pronouncement that BMW evidences no real engineering leadership in the industry. Please address that fact for me. Thank you.

Sigh. I was talking about the major components of the entire system. Not a single part of the system (Planetary gearset - Sooooo Advanced). I was also providing perspective about the car markets and ownership. Please. Get out of the weeds.

I have a bunch of hard working engineering friends, small business owning friends, and biotechnology friends who work 65-80 hrs per week to take care of their families. As like minded people (we are car people...all cars, not just exotics.)

Earlier, I was attempting to ignore your subtle digs but I see where this is going. Please remember that we live in the USA (many of us, anyway) and all have equality of opportunity. I may sound pollyanna but I believe in this country and what it has to offer. Please avail yourself of every opportunity that this country offers and end your subtle digs. It is most unseemly.

If you don't like a car BUT haven't spent any serious time behind the wheel...I value your opinion pretty low. Let's get to brass tacks.

Do you own an i8?
Have you driven an i8?
Do you own a Volt?
Have you driven a Volt?

Or do you simply Keyboard Warrior it up and drop subtle digs at things you do not understand? Based on your original analogy, the ideal performance machine is definitely a motorcycle. I can spend $18,000, blow the doors off almost any car around AND have save enough money over the 'Vette to purchase fuel for my nonexistent grandkids. Jeeze. Next.

Cheers
MK

[MalibuBimmer]

I'm just not that impressed.

Sniffs the man who's never driven one.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Nowhere above do you discuss the actual fact that BMW has been the most awarded manufacturer for the International Engine of the Year award since it's inception. It flies in the face of your pronouncement that BMW evidences no real engineering leadership in the industry. Please address that fact for me. Thank you.

Sigh. I was talking about the major components of the entire system. Not a single part of the system (Planetary gearset - Sooooo Advanced). I was also providing perspective about the car markets and ownership. Please. Get out of the weeds.

I have a bunch of hard working engineering friends, small business owning friends, and biotechnology friends who work 65-80 hrs per week to take care of their families. As like minded people (we are car people...all cars, not just exotics.)

Earlier, I was attempting to ignore your subtle digs but I see where this is going. Please remember that we live in the USA (many of us, anyway) and all have equality of opportunity. I may sound pollyanna but I believe in this country and what it has to offer. Please avail yourself of every opportunity that this country offers and end your subtle digs. It is most unseemly.

If you don't like a car BUT haven't spent any serious time behind the wheel...I value your opinion pretty low. Let's get to brass tacks.

Do you own an i8?
Have you driven an i8?
Do you own a Volt?
Have you driven a Volt?

Or do you simply Keyboard Warrior it up and drop subtle digs at things you do not understand? Based on your original analogy, the ideal performance machine is definitely a motorcycle. I can spend $18,000, blow the doors off almost any car around AND have save enough money over the 'Vette to purchase fuel for my nonexistent grandkids. Jeeze. Next.

Cheers
MK

I have no issue with wealthy people owning nice cars, I just don't see the need to mention them in the discussion as it adds no material value to the argument. I grew up on the same street as Robert Kogod (they've named the U of M Business school after him) so it's not like I don't know rich people too, while were rich-dropping here. His brother in-law built Crystal City, VA, and he lived down the street (their houses were basically one big complex with shared tennis courts and pools), so BFD about rich people. I delivered his newspaper too... So, relax about it.

Regarding the i8, no I've not driven one and don't care too since I'm not impressed with it nor in the market for a $150K car. It's an engineering exercise. It's nice, fast, advanced compared to the general car population, I get all of it. But it certainly not a paradigm shift in the transportation industry. I gave an example of a car that was. I have driven the i3, nice for a city car with 80 mile range. I think the REX version is a joke however.

I have driven a Volt extensively, and am quite impressed with it. Impressed because it executes its design goals perfectly and it costs $40,000. Its design goals are to provide general transportation to how most people drive with an electric range of 38 miles and an unlimited gas-mode range. The Volt is very good affordable solution to a 1-car household where the vehicle can be driven in EV mode at 106 MPGe and in gas mode at 40 MPG (Gen 1 Volt). The Gen 2 does even better. Further with the Gen 2, GM managed to increase the electric range to 48 miles (IIRC) and the fuel consumption to 42 MPG (again IIRC - don't have time to look it up), all the while reducing the overall vehicle weight by about 300 pounds, increasing the interior passenger volume slightly, and lowering the MSRP by $2,000. To me that is good engineering, not some snipit about how great the engine is. Most BMW redesigns increase in weight, increase in size and increase in price. By comparison, the new CF 7-Series chassis only loses only 77 pounds by using CF in the chassis (per BMW). Whereas Cadillac dropped the chassis weight of the upcoming CT6 by 88 pounds and didn't use any carbon fiber.

Most people by cars in the $30K - $40K price range, not $150K. Give any manufacturer a MSRP target of $150K and they'll come up with good stuff too. And with respect to the engine of the year awards, so the N54 was one; but let's ignore the coil issues, fuel injector issues, wastegate extended warranty, and the HPFP extended warranty - give me a break. Yup it makes great power and torque until it breaks at around 50,000 miles. So just because a manufacturer make the engine of the year award doesn't impress me. Let's discuss Ford's engine of the year awardee, the 1.0L 3-cylinder with the rubber-tooth drive belt for the oil pump buried in the oil sump. We'll see the longevity of that motor. Let's see how it does... And nice,we'll not laugh about VW...

And I originally stated that 15 years ago when major manufacturers were introducing production hybrids, BMW was paying the largest fines in the industry for missing CAFE regulations; not evidence of technical leadership by any stretch.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I have no issue with wealthy people owning nice cars, I just don't see the need to mention them in the discussion as it adds no material value to the argument. I grew up on the same street as Robert Kogod (they've named the U of M Business school after him) so it's not like I don't know rich people too, while were rich-dropping here. His brother in-law built Crystal City, VA, and he lived down the street (their houses were basically one big complex with shared tennis courts and pools), so BFD about rich people. I delivered his newspaper too... So, relax about it.

Regarding the i8, no I've not driven one and don't care too since I'm not impressed with it nor in the market for a $150K car. It's an engineering exercise. It's nice, fast, advanced compared to the general car population, I get all of it. But it certainly not a paradigm shift in the transportation industry. I gave an example of a car that was. I have driven the i3, nice for a city car with 80 mile range. I think the REX version is a joke however.

I have driven a Volt extensively, and am quite impressed with it. Impressed because it executes its design goals perfectly and it costs $40,000. Its design goals are to provide general transportation to how most people drive with an electric range of 38 miles and an unlimited gas-mode range. The Volt is very good affordable solution to a 1-car household where the vehicle can be driven in EV mode at 106 MPGe and in gas mode at 40 MPG (Gen 1 Volt). The Gen 2 does even better. Further with the Gen 2, GM managed to increase the electric range to 48 miles (IIRC) and the fuel consumption to 42 MPG (again IIRC - don't have time to look it up), all the while reducing the overall vehicle weight by about 300 pounds, increasing the interior passenger volume slightly, and lowering the MSRP by $2,000. To me that is good engineering, not some snipit about how great the engine is. Most BMW redesigns increase in weight, increase in size and increase in price. By comparison, the new CF 7-Series chassis only loses only 77 pounds by using CF in the chassis (per BMW). Whereas Cadillac dropped the chassis weight of the upcoming CT6 by 88 pounds and didn't use any carbon fiber.

Most people by cars in the $30K - $40K price range, not $150K. Give any manufacturer a MSRP target of $150K and they'll come up with good stuff too. And with respect to the engine of the year awards, so the N54 was one; but let's ignore the coil issues, fuel injector issues, wastegate extended warranty, and the HPFP extended warranty - give me a break. Yup it makes great power and torque until it breaks at around 50,000 miles. So just because a manufacturer make the engine of the year award doesn't impress me. Let's discuss Ford's engine of the year awardee, the 1.0L 3-cylinder with the rubber-tooth drive belt for the oil pump buried in the oil sump. We'll see the longevity of that motor. Let's see how it does... And nice,we'll not laugh about VW...

And I originally stated that 15 years ago when major manufacturers were introducing production hybrids, BMW was paying the largest fines in the industry for missing CAFE regulations; not evidence of technical leadership by any stretch.

1. You mentioned them first.

2. It is as usably fast as my E63 M6 and gets 3.5 times the fuel economy. If that is not a paradigm shift, I do not know what qualifies.

3. I can think of quite a few crap boxes in the $150+ range. One out of 62. Give me a break.

4. False. Technical leadership is not limited to adherence to CAFE regulations. That is actually called compliance. Next.

Cheers-mk

[Chihuahua]

This thread delivers

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

1. You mentioned them first. Ah well not really. Your quotes: (1) "I own and E63 M6 and have friends with the entire gamut of auto's from the McLaren P1 down. One of the P1 owners, an engineer, states that the i8 is amazing in that it delivers an advanced power train for $135K." (2) "I have a close friend who acquired a Ferrari about 18 months ago. He sold it because he underestimated the $25K per year that it takes to keep it on the road." and (3) "I have a bunch of hard working engineering friends, small business owning friends, and biotechnology friends who work 65-80 hrs per week to take care of their families. As like minded people (we are car people...all cars, not just exotics.)" - I'm unable to understand how an Owner of a McLaren P1 (i.e. he's wealthy) qualifies as a source that the i8 is the paradigm shifting car you think it is.

2. It is as usably fast as my E63 M6 and gets 3.5 times the fuel economy. If that is not a paradigm shift, I do not know what qualifies. - You are correct. Now if the i8 did this AT THE SAME PRICE as a E63 M6... then maybe it's close - but really not. Let's see if BMW can cut the price in half in 15 years (hint - this is what Ford did with the Model T).

3. I can think of quite a few crap boxes in the $150+ range. One out of 62. Give me a break. - You missed the point entirely. The engine of the year awards is exactly that, of the year. The voters get wowed about engine performance, the owners are left to deal with the reality of the quality issues.

4. False. Technical leadership is not limited to adherence to CAFE regulations. That is actually called compliance. Next. - Next... No, actually not. The point is while Honda (Insight 1999) and Toyota (Prius 2000) and I'll go GM too with the EV1 (1996), were in production with high-MPG hybrids (and GM's EV), BMW was paying huge fines to the EPA; so Honda, Toyota and GM were actually in technology leadership roles, while BMW was shitting in its diapers.


Cheers-mk

See above. And...

The i8 doesn't impress me as an automobile considering the main purpose of the automobile is to take people and stuff places at a reasonable investment and with continued affordability; and in the case of some good cars... have fun doing it (why I drive a BMW). The i8 does none of these things in my view. It has 5 cubic feet of real trunk-lockable storage (you can get $26K of carbon fiber luggage for the back seat though), and Car and Driver's instrumented test it returned 26 MPG. Sure, it'll launch 0 - 60 in 3.8 seconds but that's a purpose mode of the drive train (launch control). In electric mode it goes 0 - 60 MPH in 9.2 seconds (I guess that's at 76 MPGe too). And in between modes for just normal driving it is 5 - 60 MPH in 4.6 seconds (I guess this is where it gets 26 MPG). I'm sorry, but that is just not impressive and certainly not paradigm shifting... So it appears to me the i8 is an EV that gets 15 miles on an electric charge an attains 60 MPH in 9.2 seconds (what a 1st gen Volt does), and carries around a 300+ HP turbo 3-banger (at 22 PSI boost - we'll see how long that engine lasts) in its ass to get some good performance numbers for the press to report on while achieving 26 MPG. These are reasons I've not taken the time to test drive it, the car for its real world capability is just not worth $150K. Sorry. It is a great engineering exercise though and why engineers like it.

Cheers-Efthreeoh

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

See above. And...

The i8 doesn't impress me as an automobile considering the main purpose of the automobile is to take people and stuff places at a reasonable investment and with continued affordability; and in the case of some good cars... have fun doing it (why I drive a BMW). The i8 does none of these things in my view. It has 5 cubic feet of real trunk-lockable storage (you can get $26K of carbon fiber luggage for the back seat though), and Car and Driver's instrumented test it returned 26 MPG. Sure, it'll launch 0 - 60 in 3.8 seconds but that's a purpose mode of the drive train (launch control). In electric mode it goes 0 - 60 MPH in 9.2 seconds (I guess that's at 76 MPGe too). And in between modes for just normal driving it is 5 - 60 MPH in 4.6 seconds (I guess this is where it gets 26 MPG). I'm sorry, but that is just not impressive and certainly not paradigm shifting... So it appears to me the i8 is an EV that gets 15 miles on an electric charge an attains 60 MPH in 9.2 seconds (what a 1st gen Volt does), and carries around a 300+ HP turbo 3-banger (at 22 PSI boost - we'll see how long that engine lasts) in its ass to get some good performance numbers for the press to report on while achieving 26 MPG. These are reasons I've not taken the time to test drive it, the car for its real world capability is just not worth $150K. Sorry. It is a great engineering exercise though and why engineers like it.

Cheers-Efthreeoh

Ahhhh.
Magazine expert.
If you are not already a pilot but always wanted to become one, I will send you a flight manual so you can add this to you list of skills.

My REAL WORLD experience tells a completely different story. 1200 mile, one-way trip 38.2 mpg at an avg speed of, well...let's just say I get down the road. My overall driving in the car has yielded 32.2 mpg this is calculated from the first mile driven, by the car. Overall i8 fleet mileage is 38.2 mpg. My longest distance in ecoPro mode only, mixed driving is over 23 miles with me reactivating the ICE at 0. My fellow owners tell me that after it reaches 0, there is still a mile or two left in the old girl.

My overall mileage is a bit lower because I drive hard...nearly always. My M6 overall mpg is about 9.8 mpg, as a reference. I use cars.

My highest mpg on a real world mixed trip...285 mpg on a 32 mile drive. Yes...285 mpg.

Return to your magazines. I will continue to operate in the real world. We are done here.
Cheers-mk

I now return you to our normally scheduled thread.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Ahhhh.
Magazine expert.
If you are not already a pilot but always wanted to become one, I will send you a flight manual so you can add this to you list of skills.

My REAL WORLD experience tells a completely different story. 1200 mile, one-way trip 38.2 mpg at an avg speed of, well...let's just say I get down the road. My overall driving in the car has yielded 32.2 mpg this is calculated from the first mile driven, by the car. Overall i8 fleet mileage is 38.2 mpg. My longest distance in ecoPro mode only, mixed driving is over 23 miles with me reactivating the ICE at 0. My fellow owners tell me that after it reaches 0, there is still a mile or two left in the old girl.

My overall mileage is a bit lower because I drive hard...nearly always. My M6 overall mpg is about 9.8 mpg, as a reference. I use cars.

My highest mpg on a real world mixed trip...285 mpg on a 32 mile drive. Yes...285 mpg.

Return to your magazines. I will continue to operate in the real world. We are done here.
Cheers-mk

I now return you to our normally scheduled thread.

Oh that's right, we all have to be "experts" in order to comment on something... Though I've never actually jumped out of an airplane without a parachute, I know that there is a high probability of death doing so -stupid argument.

Magazines provide real world data and driving impressions, I use that information to form an opinion. I own several cars tested by Car and Driver, so I can evaluate their data as to how it compares to my real world data, which allows me calibrate their findings to mine. Yup my cars get better overall MPG than C&D did; no news flash that. But the actual facts that I stated earlier to me don't add up to paying $150K for an i8. The car basically has two drivetrains in it and not much room for more than two people and 5 cubic feet of luggage space. Most hybrids have a compact dual-mode drivetrain and space for people and luggage. Yes, those cars are not high-performance coupes (or 2-door sedans as BMW used to call them) but most of the real estate in the i8 is consumed by its drivetrain(s), which to me is more an engineering exercise than anything else. BMW is going to have to really shrink the footprint of the drivetrain to translate their i8 technology into a real useable automobile that people with normal disposable incomes can consider purchasing. I just don't see it happening without a serious reduction in performance (i.e. make the parts smaller and less powerful), which gets us back to a vehicle such as the Volt and Prius... It could be possible that GM, Toyota, Honda, all started with dual drivetrains, realized the architecture of a realistic car really didn't allow for such a space-consuming drivetrain footprint, and developed the compact drivetrain found in the typical hybrid.

I'm glad you enjoy your car. It's a cool car, but you stated it as a paradigm shift. I'm just not seeing it. Sorry.