[SantaPimp27]

Originally Posted by benmoooon

The Rossion Q1 is basically an updated version of the Noble M400. Rossion company bought the production rights to the M400.

Yeah, but they took a kit car and really turned it into an all around amazing car. Interior in the Rossion in much much better than in the noble.

I see some M400 for sale for around $50K pretty nice buy at that price

[b0bab0i]

Originally Posted by SantaPimp27

Yeah, but they took a kit car and really turned it into an all around amazing car. Interior in the Rossion in much much better than in the noble.

I see some M400 for sale for around $50K pretty nice buy at that price

But you would still register the Rossion as a kit car right?

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by ChineseGuy

I would assume when you mean bespoke, it's like Audi making an engine specially for the R8. So after some research it turns out RS4, S6, S8 shares the V8, and Gallardo with the V10. If you still think it's special I have nothing to say. GT3RS has parts of aluminium body panels and aluminum alloy chassis.

I never said the GT3 was the most bang for the buck car. I said I would prefer GT3 over the R8. I would also prefer GT3 over ZR1 and the GTR.

No, I have not driven the GTR at speeds like.

I'm not bringing the E63 in this, I'm trying to say there's going to be people preferring GT3 suspension, people preferring R8 suspension, and people preferring even softer suspension like the E63. Ones who are do not prefer the GT3 category does not immediately fall under the R8 category, since you said 99% would prefer R8 outside the track.

Then why compare C4S to R8 V8 and not Turbo to R8 V8? If the price difference is to be ignored here and say it's due to the extra stuff they put on the R8.

Yes, it snows here in Canada. With the ride height of the R8, you sure you want to drive it in snow? I don't see someone buying a R8 and see the ability to drive it in snow a factor to consider.

I don't get why they compare it to the 4S as I explained before. To me, I see competition being matched with price. I assume I have the 140K at hand, and I decide which car to buy. That's how I compare cars.

I see it as overpriced because I refuse to pay that price. If I added the IMO before my the start of this discussion, maybe it'll make more sense. IMO R8 is overpriced, because I'm not willing to pay for it at that price.

I think we can pretty much conclude this debate, and I'll sum it up.

I support the GT3, and while you support the R8. The R8 to me is overpriced, because I value performance over any other factors, including interior. You believe the difference in price between the R8 is due to the increase in interior design and built material. To me, GT3 is the better car, and to you the R8 is the better car.

I think I summed it up just about right. Agree?

You mis-read what I posted. I never said it's bespoke. I said it's more bespoke.
Parts of aluminum body panels != aluminum spaceframe.

Just because you prefer the GT3 doesn't mean it's not overpriced. Using your very own criteria for what constitutes overpriced, the GT3 is overpriced. The ZR1 and GT-R have made it so. Take that line of reasoning to its logical conclusion and you'll see even the ZR1 and GT-R are overpriced.

You should try driving the GT-R at speed. Plenty of people have said it is fun and involving.

I didn't say 99% of people would prefer the R8 outside of the track. I said it would be better for that 99% of the time that you aren't going for outright lap records.

In terms of price in their home market (which is a better indicator of what the manufacturers' intentions are, rather than relying on fluctations in exchange rates and customer preferences in other markets), the R8 V10 competes more directly with the Porsche Turbo. In both price and power vs weight.
Fine, you can compare R8 to the Turbo if you want:
R8 V8 beats DB8 and Porsche Turbo
The R8 V10 has been coming out on top over even the 997.2 Turbo in recent tests too.

What, they haven't thought of using snow plows to clear the roads in Canada? And how would you know what goes on in the minds of prospective R8 buyers who live in snowy regions?

I'm not saying the R8 is the better car as if it's a fact like you originally said it's overpriced. It depends on what a person is after. I already said the GT3 is the better track car. I'm saying: There are valid reasons why the R8 is priced like that, and even if I didn't personally agree with them, it doesn't make those reasons go away. And if all you care about is performance per dollar, the GT3 is a poor choice; it's overpriced.

[SantaPimp27]

Originally Posted by benmoooon

But you would still register the Rossion as a kit car right?

Yes because it is sold without an engine. It also lets Rossion bypass some of the DOT laws for production cars like ride height, ABS and i think airbags.

And being a kit car gives you the ability to insure it in a couple different ways. As a kit car insurance is way lower than comparable exotics. And if you don't plan on driving it a lot < 5000 miles a year you can register it as a classic and pay around $500 annually for full coverage.

Honestly though, if i had one i would have a lot of trouble keeping the miles down

[b0bab0i]

Originally Posted by Guibo

You mis-read what I posted. I never said it's bespoke. I said it's more bespoke.
Parts of aluminum body panels != aluminum spaceframe.

Just because you prefer the GT3 doesn't mean it's not overpriced. Using your very own criteria for what constitutes overpriced, the GT3 is overpriced. The ZR1 and GT-R have made it so. Take that line of reasoning to its logical conclusion and you'll see even the ZR1 and GT-R are overpriced.

You should try driving the GT-R at speed. Plenty of people have said it is fun and involving.

I didn't say 99% of people would prefer the R8 outside of the track. I said it would be better for that 99% of the time that you aren't going for outright lap records.

In terms of price in their home market (which is a better indicator of what the manufacturers' intentions are, rather than relying on fluctations in exchange rates and customer preferences in other markets), the R8 V10 competes more directly with the Porsche Turbo. In both price and power vs weight.
Fine, you can compare R8 to the Turbo if you want:
R8 V8 beats DB8 and Porsche Turbo
The R8 V10 has been coming out on top over even the 997.2 Turbo in recent tests too.

What, they haven't thought of using snow plows to clear the roads in Canada? And how would you know what goes on in the minds of prospective R8 buyers who live in snowy regions?

I'm not saying the R8 is the better car as if it's a fact like you originally said it's overpriced. It depends on what a person is after. I already said the GT3 is the better track car. I'm saying: There are valid reasons why the R8 is priced like that, and even if I didn't personally agree with them, it doesn't make those reasons go away. And if all you care about is performance per dollar, the GT3 is a poor choice; it's overpriced.

GT2 VS R8 V10?

Top of the range models for each.

[b0bab0i]

Originally Posted by SantaPimp27

Yes because it is sold without an engine. It also lets Rossion bypass some of the DOT laws for production cars like ride height, ABS and i think airbags.

And being a kit car gives you the ability to insure it in a couple different ways. As a kit car insurance is way lower than comparable exotics. And if you don't plan on driving it a lot < 5000 miles a year you can register it as a classic and pay around $500 annually for full coverage.

Honestly though, if i had one i would have a lot of trouble keeping the miles down

For sure haha

[gonzo]

Do you two have to quote each other each time you lay down your rebuttal?

It's flaring my ADHD.

[ChineseGuy]

Originally Posted by Guibo

You mis-read what I posted. I never said it's bespoke. I said it's more bespoke.
Parts of aluminum body panels != aluminum spaceframe.

Just because you prefer the GT3 doesn't mean it's not overpriced. Using your very own criteria for what constitutes overpriced, the GT3 is overpriced. The ZR1 and GT-R have made it so. Take that line of reasoning to its logical conclusion and you'll see even the ZR1 and GT-R are overpriced.

You should try driving the GT-R at speed. Plenty of people have said it is fun and involving.

I didn't say 99% of people would prefer the R8 outside of the track. I said it would be better for that 99% of the time that you aren't going for outright lap records.

In terms of price in their home market (which is a better indicator of what the manufacturers' intentions are, rather than relying on fluctations in exchange rates and customer preferences in other markets), the R8 V10 competes more directly with the Porsche Turbo. In both price and power vs weight.
Fine, you can compare R8 to the Turbo if you want:
R8 V8 beats DB8 and Porsche Turbo
The R8 V10 has been coming out on top over even the 997.2 Turbo in recent tests too.

What, they haven't thought of using snow plows to clear the roads in Canada? And how would you know what goes on in the minds of prospective R8 buyers who live in snowy regions?

I'm not saying the R8 is the better car as if it's a fact like you originally said it's overpriced. It depends on what a person is after. I already said the GT3 is the better track car. I'm saying: There are valid reasons why the R8 is priced like that, and even if I didn't personally agree with them, it doesn't make those reasons go away. And if all you care about is performance per dollar, the GT3 is a poor choice; it's overpriced.

If you say so, GT3 engine found in previous 911s, although it's only the GT3 using this engine right now. vs R8 engine found in gallardo, RS4, S6, S8. And again, I'm not saying that's bad. I have no problem with cars sharing engines, just don't find anything special about it. Even if you do insist the R8 engine is more bespoke, then sure.

Okay, GT3 is overpriced for others, but not for me. I'm willing to pay for it. In comparison to the GTR and ZR1, the GT3 is more expensive, but I wouldn't see it as overpriced. I'm looking at this with the perspective of their performance, which you know by now how I usually see cars. GTR is similar to ZR1 in where it produces speed, but GTR really just lacks the refinement for me. I don't know if the refinement will suddenly appear at very high speeds, I shall try that next time? But for me, it wasn't as fun as the GT3. Zr1 on the other hand, I have not driven one before, but from what I'm seeing, it seems to have too much power. So yes, the GTR and ZR1 is cheaper, but as a total package, it lacks the fun factor I saw in the GT3. You can also say R8 is the same in this comparison in which it's more expensive but it has interior. However, interior does not play a huge role in my considerations.

I don't pay too much attention to magazine comparisons. I'm not saying they're useless, but their tests are value every aspect the same. ex. performance and interior worth the same. and I would really like to see the tests between R8 vs 997.2 ...is it in car and driver?

I live in snowy regions. I don't even see GTRs in snow. When they plow the road, it snows again on top of the salt. Your right that I don't know what goes on to R8 drivers in snowy regions, because I do not own one.

I'd agree to you for saying GT3 is overpriced in your perspective, but not mine. Just as how R8 is overpriced in my perspective but not yours. However, GT3 will not be a poor choice, as I explained with the GTR and Zr1 explanation.

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by benmoooon

GT2 VS R8 V10?

Top of the range models for each.

That's like comparing the top of the line Bentley to the top of the range R8 V10. You could do it, but why?
Do me a favor: Go to Porsche's website and build yourself a GT2 with aluminum spaceframe, AWD, magnetic shocks, luxury interior with real alloy bits, then tell me what the total price is. Then spec for me a GT2 cabriolet.
If Audi really wanted to offer a competitor to the GT2, don't you think they'd offer a stripped-down, lighter car with a big rear wing? Oops, they're already working on that. Which means the current cars aren't the track-focused ones.

ChineseGuy:
Uh, no. Using your own logic of what constitutes worth vs what's overpriced, the ZR1 and GT-R show up the GT3 to be overpriced. I never said the GT3 is overpriced. I'm using your own logic against your. You can hide behind "fun" all you want, but that wasn't a part of your original argument. Only performance for the money.
Yes, you should try the GT-R at higher speeds next time. It particularly likes high-speed sweepers, apparently.

Just because you don't see Audi R8's in snow doesn't mean people in those regions deciding between an R8, Porsche, or Aston don't consider the R8's AWD as a contributing factor to their purchasing decision. I have yet to see an R8 V10 even on bone dry pavement. I guess they don't exist?
http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=audi+r8+snow

No, C&D doesn't have the test of the R8 vs the 997.2. Maybe the Porsche will come out on top. Come to think of it, maybe the updated versions have the edge against the R8. But it really says something that Audi are on their first legitimate super sportscar try, while Porsche has to fine-tune even further a car they've already been honing since the '60s.
I think if you add up the points that pertain to performance (1/4 mile acceleration, handling, braking, fun-to-drive), you'd probably see they don't consider interior on a par with performance. And even if they did, so what? If a person cared so much about performance, he wouldn't take the Porsche anyway. When you buy a Porsche (or Audi), you're not just paying for performance-related items only.

[ChineseGuy]

Originally Posted by Guibo

Uh, no. Using your own logic of what constitutes worth vs what's overpriced, the ZR1 and GT-R show up the GT3 to be overpriced. I never said the GT3 is overpriced. I'm using your own logic against your. You can hide behind "fun" all you want, but that wasn't a part of your original argument. Only performance for the money.
Yes, you should try the GT-R at higher speeds next time. It particularly likes high-speed sweepers, apparently.

Just because you don't see Audi R8's in snow doesn't mean people in those regions deciding between an R8, Porsche, or Aston don't consider the R8's AWD as a contributing factor to their purchasing decision. I have yet to see an R8 V10 even on bone dry pavement. I guess they don't exist?
http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=audi+r8+snow

No, C&D doesn't have the test of the R8 vs the 997.2. Maybe the Porsche will come out on top. Come to think of it, maybe the updated versions have the edge against the R8. But it really says something that Audi are on their first legitimate super sportscar try, while Porsche has to fine-tune even further a car they've already been honing since the '60s.
I think if you add up the points that pertain to performance (1/4 mile acceleration, handling, braking, fun-to-drive), you'd probably see they don't consider interior on a par with performance. And even if they did, so what? If a person cared so much about performance, he wouldn't take the Porsche anyway. When you buy a Porsche (or Audi), you're not just paying for performance-related items only.

Zr1 and GTR makes the GT3 more expensive in comparison, but definitely not overpriced in my book. The GT3 offers things ZR1 and GTR doesn't and to me those things make up for the difference in price. I know you are going to use this to say how the R8 is same in how they offer the "better" interior and such which makes up the difference in price. But to me, those aren't as important as the driving of the car.

I'm not hiding behind "Fun". The fun factor is definitely under the performance category for me. It's how the car performs. Every bit of how the GT3 performs fall under my decision to buy it or not. If it's fun, fast, handles brilliantly, then that's important to me. I care less about what the R8 is made of or what it uses for interior. You can mark up the price and fit diamonds in the interior, it would not matter to me. You can explain how the difference in price goes to the diamonds and design, but that does not make me consider it.

Well you can use any car in snow, it's the tires anyways. I'm saying it's not so good of an idea to drive the R8 in snow because of the ride height. It's so low that you can bend the bumper while hitting the snow. And again, I don't see a point in driving the R8 in snow, but whatever floats your boat.

To me, Porsche is ALL about performance. They don't have much luxury, with only the basic features. Most stock 911s are already track ready. It will not disappoint if you were to take it to the track. Even the GT3RS, one of the options, you can take out the A/C. That's how much attention they put on the car to make it track ready. But it's not always the best lap times. Although it does say something about the car, what I value quite a bit is the fun factor that I keep emphasizing. It really is a pleasure to drive a 911, any 911. On paper or even physics, it's a failure: RR layout, super oversteer. But it's that oversteer that makes it fun. It's a very special feeling that most 911 fans can agree on.

Honestly, us 2 beating on the dead horse wouldn't get anywhere. It's down to personal preference. You think that is better, I think this is better.

[pittsy]

Maserati GT looks and sounds great!

[b0bab0i]

Originally Posted by Guibo

That's like comparing the top of the line Bentley to the top of the range R8 V10. You could do it, but why?
Do me a favor: Go to Porsche's website and build yourself a GT2 with aluminum spaceframe, AWD, magnetic shocks, luxury interior with real alloy bits, then tell me what the total price is. Then spec for me a GT2 cabriolet.
If Audi really wanted to offer a competitor to the GT2, don't you think they'd offer a stripped-down, lighter car with a big rear wing? Oops, they're already working on that. Which means the current cars aren't the track-focused ones.

So what you are saying is GT2 > R8 V10.

Thanks! I win.

[Project1]

I miss my Maserati

But my BMW does things a little differently, two different styles of drive. The both excel at their maker's intentions. So in this, I MUST choose the Maser, I will post a video of my Maser's exhaust note with straight pipes and you will know why...

[b0bab0i]

Originally Posted by Project1

I miss my Maserati

But my BMW does things a little differently, two different styles of drive. The both excel at their maker's intentions. So in this, I MUST choose the Maser, I will post a video of my Maser's exhaust note with straight pipes and you will know why...

You got rid of a maserati gran turismo for a 135i???
Really?

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by benmoooon

So what you are saying is GT2 > R8 V10.

Thanks! I win.

No, you don't "win" because they are not competitors. Like I said, go to Porsche's website and spec the GT2 the way I've described. Here, I'll even help you get started.
$195k BEFORE options

This is likely to be a more legit competitor:


ChineseGuy:
Just because you can use any car in the snow doesn't mean all cars will handle snowy conditions in the same way. By your own admission, the GT3 is oversteery. Combine that with the Sport Cup semi-slicks and see how "fun" it is when you leave the road ass backward. The point about the R8 and snow (and other low-grip conditions; it doesn't even have to be snowy) is that it's more useable more of the time. Even in (generally) bone dry and sunny California, you can set off for a drive in good conditions, only to meet worsening conditions throughout the day.

[ChineseGuy]

Originally Posted by Guibo

ChineseGuy:
Just because you can use any car in the snow doesn't mean all cars will handle snowy conditions in the same way. By your own admission, the GT3 is oversteery. Combine that with the Sport Cup semi-slicks and see how "fun" it is when you leave the road ass backward. The point about the R8 and snow (and other low-grip conditions; it doesn't even have to be snowy) is that it's more useable more of the time. Even in (generally) bone dry and sunny California, you can set off for a drive in good conditions, only to meet worsening conditions throughout the day.

I'm not trying to say a RWD car, for example, with snow tires vs. a AWD car with all seasons will handle the same. I'm saying both of them will get the job done, which is to get from point A to point B. That is usually what's most important during snowy seasons. You wouldn't really leave your house when you see cars abandoned outside and stuck in the snow.

Are you trying to say GT3 in semi slicks in snow? I didn't say anything about GT3 in snow. I'm hoping I misunderstand in some ways.

Well in wet, a GT3 will get you to places too. It shouldn't give you too much trouble unless you want to take a corner above 100km/h. I'll agree a R8 would be quicker in wet due to the AWD system, but i wouldn't see that as a deal breaker for the GT3. I'm very slow and careful during rainy days, and even if I'm in the R8 I wouldn't drive too quick either, for the safety of others.

In snow as I said before, I wouldn't take the R8 out simply because I'll need to change tires and risk getting the lower panels and the bumpers damaged from the snow. You can again argue rich guys don't care and still take it in winter, but I just wouldn't.

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by ChineseGuy

Are you trying to say GT3 in semi slicks in snow? I didn't say anything about GT3 in snow. I'm hoping I misunderstand in some ways.
You can again argue rich guys don't care and still take it in winter, but I just wouldn't.

Well, you were using the GT3 as an example of why you think the R8 is overpriced. So yeah, GT3 on the factory Cup tires. I'm not saying someone would drive crazy fast in snow or wet conditions, nor am I saying the R8 will be faster. I'm just saying the AWD security is there, and it is a factor in some people's puchasing decisions.
Yes, we know you wouldn't. You wouldn't even take the R8 in bone dry conditions; you'd be too worried someone thought you made a bone-headed decision in buying an R8 instead of a GT3.

[ChineseGuy]

Originally Posted by Guibo

Well, you were using the GT3 as an example of why you think the R8 is overpriced. So yeah, GT3 on the factory Cup tires. I'm not saying someone would drive crazy fast in snow or wet conditions, nor am I saying the R8 will be faster. I'm just saying the AWD security is there, and it is a factor in some people's puchasing decisions.
Yes, we know you wouldn't. You wouldn't even take the R8 in bone dry conditions; you'd be too worried someone thought you made a bone-headed decision in buying an R8 instead of a GT3.

Sigh, you really make it seem like I really hate the R8. At my first post I stated I actually LIKE the R8. Even as an Audi-hater, it's the only Audi I like from their whole lineup throughout all these years.

Either way, have fun in your R8, and I'll take my GT3.

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by benmoooon

You got rid of a maserati gran turismo for a 135i???
Really?

I have to say he didn't come out straight after the financial crisis between 2007~2010.