[tranquility]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

The RF looks cool, no doubt. But I couldn't bring myself to lose even more trunk space and add something like 110 lbs.

And it doesn't look like the ND2 is receiving nearly the aftermarket support as far as drivetrain mods as it used to. Because of all the EPA stuff regarding emissions/tunes. For example, Edlebrock isn't even bothering to develop a S/C kit for the ND2.

Orange Virus Tuning and Good-Win Racing HP increases from tunes haven't been able to be verified by third parties. IE, not seeing close to the power gains they claim.

Even if I don't heavily mod a car, I like to know there is good aftermarket support if I do.

One last one, if you ever decided you want to do HPDE, you basically need an oil cooler, transmission cooler, and diff cooler for the NDs. In the search of lightweight, the fluid capacities are so small they get well in to the danger zone in less than a 20 minute session. Whereas the Twins just need an oil cooler. Which basically any modern car does for track work.

Good pts, tx man.

I could understand the extra 110lbs or so, some reviewers said they noticed, some say they didn't. Who knows? ...but for sure that's a consideration for track rats where everything counts. Not sure about the trunk factor though, seems to be negligible.

I dunno if I'd ever wanna go to the track, maybe some auto-x in the future, but I don't think I'd enjoy it as much as just driving back roads. As such, I'm not into modding, but it's good to know that the potential of the twins seem better.

[Red Bread]

Mazdas have always liked to cook their transmission fluids. The FD RX7 had a light specifically for it. Oops, guess it was exhaust. Been a few years since I've driven one.

[IMG]https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...6b91b98f7f.jpg[/IMG]

[CharsadehBEAST]

If you can swing it, there's nothing like the Exige.

Surprised no one has mentioned the S2000, here's a good comparison between the S2k, Miata and 86:

[tranquility]

^Those are good cars but only interested in new ones.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by CharsadehBEAST

If you can swing it, there's nothing like the Exige.

Surprised no one has mentioned the S2000, here's a good comparison between the S2k, Miata and 86:

Because a clean AP2 S2K costs almost as much as a new BRZ. And you're getting a 12-15 year old.

For what an Exige costs, I'd just go buy a new Cayman S.

[turvytopsy]

Must be an Exige surely. There might be better cars overall, but purely on handling I can't think of anything that is better straight out of the factory

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by turvytopsy

Must be an Exige surely. There might be better cars overall, but purely on handling I can't think of anything that is better straight out of the factory

You guys are lucky, we don't get the new ones here in N Amer.

[tranquility]

Pretty cool a MX-5 hanging w a GT3? and 720S (chase starts @1:33).

[bwright657]

In terms of smiles per mile, you can't beat the ND2 Miata. If you're going to stick to backroads and the occasional autocross, then I would go for the ND2 soft top 6-speed with the factory Bilsteins and Recaro seats. Then throw on a set of sway bars to cut down the body roll and leave the rest of it stock.

If you need back seats or plan on more track work, then the new Toyobaru twins are the way to go. Moving up from there, a 1LE package Camaro is the next best choice, but will feel very heavy and the visibility is awful. After that, you're looking at a Cayman GTS or GT4 depending on whether you want backroads or track.

My pick right now would be the ND2 Miata. You'll be having just as much fun as the guys in the Porsches for 1/3 to 1/4 of the money.

[Alfisti]

You just need REALLY good roads. I drove a Miata back home in OZ and it was tons of fun, but here, ARROW straight roads, meh. Miata needs switchbacks, and tons of them, to be fun, there's just no shove in your back on exit so you need the right roads.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

You just need REALLY good roads. I drove a Miata back home in OZ and it was tons of fun, but here, ARROW straight roads, meh. Miata needs switchbacks, and tons of them, to be fun, there's just no shove in your back on exit so you need the right roads.

I kinda get your pt, but I'm not gonna let the roads dictate what I drive, otherwise we'd all have to drive some boring, cushy things since many of the roads are in such disrepair here. Luckily, we have some good drivers' roads here.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

You just need REALLY good roads. I drove a Miata back home in OZ and it was tons of fun, but here, ARROW straight roads, meh. Miata needs switchbacks, and tons of them, to be fun, there's just no shove in your back on exit so you need the right roads.

Agreed.

I moved about 120 miles away from where I grew up and there are no fun roads around here, or else I would have bought a Ducati by now.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

You just need REALLY good roads. I drove a Miata back home in OZ and it was tons of fun, but here, ARROW straight roads, meh. Miata needs switchbacks, and tons of them, to be fun, there's just no shove in your back on exit so you need the right roads.

Absolutely. Just changing jobs buggered my commute and took the fun out of my Miata. The M Coupe fixed that issue, but it still suffered with boring Dallas roads. It's not like it was fast in modern terms, and in highway areas, that's really all that works.

Fortunately, Austin has very few straight or flat roads and I really find myself wanting another Miata now that I'm down here.

[mikado463]

Originally Posted by Sedoy

If money not an issue Porsche 911 GT3 RS, if on the "budget" Cayman GT4

here's what my 'budget' just bought me, 21k, if there is a better performing car to be had out there for 21k I'd like to see it ..........

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by mikado463

here's what my 'budget' just bought me, 21k, if there is a better performing car to be had out there for 21k I'd like to see it ..........

Great choice. I know a Miata is fun, but to me the fun ends when you're not able to keep up with basically anything on a straight. C5 Z06 is probably best performance value out there right now.

I needed one with a rear seat. It had to be fast around a racetrack, handle well, be decently quick straight line, and sound good. My budget was ~$45k. It als needed to be track ready right out of the box. I picked this.

It reminds me a lot of my previous M2 in terms of handling balance & turn in, while being easier to rotate, having more grip, and generally being able to carry more speed, and accelerate harder.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

Great choice. I know a Miata is fun, but to me the fun ends when you're not able to keep up with basically anything on a straight. C5 Z06 is probably best performance value out there right now.

I needed one with a rear seat. It had to be fast around a racetrack, handle well, be decently quick straight line, and sound good. My budget was ~$45k. It als needed to be track ready right out of the box. I picked this.

It reminds me a lot of my previous M2 in terms of handling balance & turn in, while being easier to rotate, having more grip, and generally being able to carry more speed, and accelerate harder.

Every time I'm coming out of a turn at 3.5K and I slam the accelerator and the thing just takes off and I am thrown into the side with the G-forces of the next turn...I just think "what a monster this is"... Won novice class for the year.

[Alfisti]

How's the Camaro go against a PP2 stang?

[DrFerry]

Ultima RS Build 07 - First Drive!

What else comes close for the money?

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

How's the Camaro go against a PP2 stang?

The SS 1LE definitely still a leg up on a PP2, although the PP2 is decent, it's the first "serious" package I think with that car and I wouldn't kick it out of bed. Mustang has struggled to answer to cars like the SS 1LE and ZL1/1LE IMO. They are actually heavier than the equivalent Camaro with their new independent rear suspension and Ford has always handicapped them with skinny wheels/tires and poor suspension. They finally have managed to produce the Mach 1, but it's years down the road now. The SS 1LE is about in between a GT350 and GT350R in terms of all out performance, but those were a crazy premium over the SS 1LE. That's what we were comparing against for the longest while. Now Ford has the Mach 1, so the PP2 and Mach 1 kind of bracket it, the Mach 1 being a little bit faster around a course with the stats I've seen.

Once you get up to PP2 levels as far as suspension and performance, it's going to be a lot more about a driver's race. IMO, Ford is a little less serious about performance overall, leaning more towards selling the car based on other factors. It's not that they can't do it, but they usually choose not to. Chevy goes a little more all-out IMO, as seen by cars like the CT5 Blackwing, etc. Not that the GT500 isn't impressive, it definitely is and it doesn't suck in the handling department either...but everything they do in this area is a Mustang of some sort.


For so long the US "sports cars" weren't serious, it was hard to call them "sports cars". When I saw the SS 1LE and just the improvements from generation to generation, I knew I had to have it, since "this was serious car" and possibly one of the last great manual-trans cars. It also handicaps GM though, since most people that buy cars like this aren't looking for a serious car and at the lower levels, like V6 and I-4, there are much better choices IMO.

[Alfisti]

I rented a PP2 vert last month, TREMENDOUS engine, just tremendous. I actually prefer it needing to rev a bit, more theatre. But man, the nose is sooooo long and it felt heavy up front. I usually drive smaller cars with smaller engines (alfas) when hustling so this felt very long nosed.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

Great choice. I know a Miata is fun, but to me the fun ends when you're not able to keep up with basically anything on a straight. C5 Z06 is probably best performance value out there right now.

I needed one with a rear seat. It had to be fast around a racetrack, handle well, be decently quick straight line, and sound good. My budget was ~$45k. It als needed to be track ready right out of the box. I picked this.

It reminds me a lot of my previous M2 in terms of handling balance & turn in, while being easier to rotate, having more grip, and generally being able to carry more speed, and accelerate harder.

Your comparison of new vs used at more than twice the price definitely makes sense.

I suspect you're the type of guy I used to get point-bys from on track in my 1.6 Miata.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

Ultima RS Build 07 - First Drive!

What else comes close for the money?

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

The SS 1LE definitely still a leg up on a PP2, although the PP2 is decent, it's the first "serious" package I think with that car and I wouldn't kick it out of bed. Mustang has struggled to answer to cars like the SS 1LE and ZL1/1LE IMO. They are actually heavier than the equivalent Camaro with their new independent rear suspension and Ford has always handicapped them with skinny wheels/tires and poor suspension. They finally have managed to produce the Mach 1, but it's years down the road now. The SS 1LE is about in between a GT350 and GT350R in terms of all out performance, but those were a crazy premium over the SS 1LE. That's what we were comparing against for the longest while. Now Ford has the Mach 1, so the PP2 and Mach 1 kind of bracket it, the Mach 1 being a little bit faster around a course with the stats I've seen.

Once you get up to PP2 levels as far as suspension and performance, it's going to be a lot more about a driver's race. IMO, Ford is a little less serious about performance overall, leaning more towards selling the car based on other factors. It's not that they can't do it, but they usually choose not to. Chevy goes a little more all-out IMO, as seen by cars like the CT5 Blackwing, etc. Not that the GT500 isn't impressive, it definitely is and it doesn't suck in the handling department either...but everything they do in this area is a Mustang of some sort.


For so long the US "sports cars" weren't serious, it was hard to call them "sports cars". When I saw the SS 1LE and just the improvements from generation to generation, I knew I had to have it, since "this was serious car" and possibly one of the last great manual-trans cars. It also handicaps GM though, since most people that buy cars like this aren't looking for a serious car and at the lower levels, like V6 and I-4, there are much better choices IMO.

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I rented a PP2 vert last month, TREMENDOUS engine, just tremendous. I actually prefer it needing to rev a bit, more theatre. But man, the nose is sooooo long and it felt heavy up front. I usually drive smaller cars with smaller engines (alfas) when hustling so this felt very long nosed.

I second what James said. I used to own a 2-14 GT Track Pack Mustang. Learned to drive on the track in that car, which I am very thankful for. Why? Because it was very hard to extract lap times from, and you had to have great reflexes to catch the oversteer it always wanted to produce. I went down the rabbit hole with mine too. Sway bars, dampers, camber plates, springs ..... the list went on.

The M2 was way easier to drive fast by comparison. I had to un-learn some of the habits I developed to keep the Mustang in check. But they still came in handy when going for lap times on the 'Ring, like in the quick videos below.

The PP2 was the only Mustang I thought was worth the investment for a while. The Mach 1 is the one now, since PP2 is discontinued now. But the Camaro Puts up identical lap time to the GT350R, which is really impressive. Also the Mach is about 8-10k over the price of a 1LE!!!

The Camaro is the complete package. The cooling for the trans, oil, dif. The sticky 285/305 rubber, the 6 piston brakes with integrated cooling ducts. And of course the party trick, Performance Traction Management with it's 5 different modes. You literally point the car where you want it to go, and smash the throttle. The engine management does the rest. Results in maximum possible forward acceleration regardless of traction limitations. It's like cheating.

Anyway, at the bottom I have the PP2 vs 1LE comparo from Throttle House. Entertaining stuff. Both cars are good for sure.

OP, sorry about the