[Patton250]

Originally Posted by TimmyM56

Wyoming, among other states, is only doing this to be contrarian and annoying, to fight some imaginary culture war of people coming for their ICE cars and trucks. I say let them be, who cares, anyone who's smart will leave for somewhere that actually has job prospects for them.



Incredibly based.

Imaginary??? Governments literally ALL OVER THE WORLD are passing laws mandating EV be manufactured. Imaginary

[grannyknot]

Originally Posted by Patton250

If that were true, then people would take a lot more action. Let me put it this way. Unless you eliminate all gas powered products from your life, eliminate electricity to your house and completely live off the grid, I’m not going to take you seriously on this subject. Your opinion is meaningless. I always find it amusing that the most outspoken people about climate change are the ones who fly the most private jets and own the most yachts. Don’t lecture me about smoking being bad with a cigarette in your mouth.

Can't take your black and white view seriously either, at no time did I say oil is evil did I? That's what you are reading into it.
All I said is there is a major shift coming.
I'm not sure what form it will take but it will be very uncomfortable for everyone regardless of their politics.
Outspoken? I'm just saying the same thing anyone else with their eyes open can see.
What's that old saying, "I take responsibility for what I say but I can't take responsibility for you understanding it.
Feel free, smoke your brains out.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by grannyknot

Can't take your black and white view seriously either, at no time did I say oil is evil did I? That's what you are reading into it.
All I said is there is a major shift coming.
I'm not sure what form it will take but it will be very uncomfortable for everyone regardless of their politics.
Outspoken? I'm just saying the same thing anyone else with their eyes open can see.
What's that old saying, "I take responsibility for what I say but I can't take responsibility for you understanding it.
Feel free, smoke your brains out.

Everything is black or white. Life is that simple. Grey is how we fall off a cliff. But I hear you.

[grannyknot]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Not flaming, really. Love following your Z4M rebuild thread.

But I really think batteries have a limit of energy density and recovery rate, that with the low price of gasoline dictated by the market (rather than Government over taxation), EV is never going to be less expensive to own when looked at lifecycle cost. Once the critical mass of batteries starts to show the recycling cost (to minimize environmental impacts) is realized, the end-user fee to recycle the giant EV battery is going to severely impact the lifecycle cost of EV. The problem then falls on the 2nd or 3rd tier owner (i.e. off-lease used car buyer) who will realize he will be the one who pays for the recycling of the battery. That will make the EV used car market non-existent, which then falls back on the original owner to pay a built-in up front recycling cost in the MSRP.

It's easily shown that when comparing a Honda Accord against a Tesla Model 3, the $12K to $15K price difference buys about 100,000 miles of free travel in the Honda. Add in the Tesla's fuel savings of $5K and the (temporary) Federal and State EV tax incentives and subtract $1,500 for maintenance of the Honda's EV ICE drivetrain over the 100,000 miles, the payback is still about 50,000 miles in the Honda's favor. The math simply doesn't work, which is why states and governments are mandating EV use by banning ICE in the next decade.

EV battery cost is critical to this equation. The mystical future EV battery that solves range and recharge recovery time is not going to be less expensive than the current lithium designs now in use.

If society really wants to reduce carbon emissions, then the logical path is to decrease ICE's heat loss, thus vastly improving its combustion efficiency. That can be easily and achieved in the very near term by introducing vehicles that scale down the ICE-Electric hybrid drive systems used in trains and ships. Taking the ICE out of the direct (mechanical) path of the vehicle's drive system allows for a complete redesign of the internal combustion engine so it's heat loss can be drastically reduced. Such a path forward curtails the impact of EV charging on a nation's electrical infrastructure, stops the impact on the petrochemical industry to completely redesign and and reinvest in its infratructure, and reduces the environmental impact of producing and recycling EV batteries.

By California banning ICE in 2035 and the rest of the world following that mind set locks us into set answer that is the wrong answer.

My 2 cents.

Absolutely, some excellent points.
As I said, I'm not a big EV proponent, but the alternative is what, continue to dump endless amounts of carbon into the atmosphere?
I'm just looking around at what alternatives there might be.
Somewhere along the line we're going to reach a tipping point and then you'll see everyone desperately back peddling as fast as they can but I'm afraid it will be too late by then.
I don't have the answers that's for sure, just looking for them.

[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Right, I get it, all the same difference: churches, hospitals, libraries, Armed Forces, etc.; all Socialism! Public services are not Socialism. It's an old and tired internet battle.

Public services IS socialism in its best form.

But perhaps you’re thinking of ‘socialism’ as in Nicolás Maduro is a ‘socialist’ because he says he is. He isn’t. That’s like me saying I’m Swedish. It doesn’t matter how many times I say it, I’m not.

But you’ve already won, F30. You always win. Don’t you ?

[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Nice try. Seriously though nice try. In none of your examples does government give favoritism to one type of technology over another. But like i said nice try.

Oh, the conversation veered from that a while back. But since you insist, the government picked nuclear over diesel-electric for its entire fleet of submarines and air carrier, thus advancing the nuclear industry. The government picked AC power over DC power. GPS vs paper maps.

But you too, Patton. You win ! Congratulations !

Nothing else to say here.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Marcoose

Oh, the conversation veered from that a while back. But since you insist, the government picked nuclear over diesel-electric for its entire fleet of submarines and air carrier, thus advancing the nuclear industry. The government picked AC power over DC power. GPS vs paper maps.

But you too, Patton. You win ! Congratulations !

Nothing else to say here.

I served in the Navy. I know why they went nuclear. Do you? I assure you it had nothing to do with the same reason they are passing laws to force auto manufacturers to make EV. But since you want to bring the military into this, you could use that example with every single thing the military owns. Every rifle every bullet every piece of clothing used for uniforms, everything. That once again is not the same thing. If you want to pretend it is no problem.

[Tim_M56]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Imaginary??? Governments literally ALL OVER THE WORLD are passing laws mandating EV be manufactured. Imaginary

Christ, do you want more emojis?

Right, that's not what I was talking about, no shit it's happening in the real world we can read the news. I am talking about the imaginary fears that it's some big bad boogeyman, like people on that side talk with things like "War on Christmas" and their new favorite, people trying to ban gas stoves.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by TimmyM56

Christ, do you want more emojis?

Right, that's not what I was talking about, no shit it's happening in the real world we can read the news. I am talking about the imaginary fears that it's some big bad boogeyman, like people on that side talk with things like "War on Christmas" and their new favorite, people trying to ban gas stoves.

Bro one side is doing stuff like that and crazier stuff that we have no right to discuss on this forum. There’s a percentage of our country doing stuff today that if we went back in time 20 years and told ourselves, this was going to happen, we would laugh our butts off and not ever believe it.

[Tim_M56]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Bro one side is doing stuff like that and crazier stuff that we have no right to discuss on this forum. There’s a percentage of our country doing stuff today that if we went back in time 20 years and told ourselves, this was going to happen, we would laugh our butts off and not ever believe it.

Yeah, I'm not going to agree with that, good it's not talked about on here. Times change, 20 years ago wasn't all that great let's be honest, things progress and move on to be better.

Back on topic, 20 years ago EVs were not good at all, like the Chevy S10 which had 70 miles of range. Now models have been range. Wyoming has some of the lowest EV purchases in the whole US, so understandably I don't see the point of it other than posturing.

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Is it cool yet to self identify as a rock?

Apparently it is there are kids in my child H.S. That identify as a squirrels there’s a school in Illinois that had placed litter box in the bathroom because there’s a group of students identifying as cats. So yes. You can be a rock these days 😂I am not sure it’s healthy though

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I appreciate your post. It illustrates what scares me about people that think the way you do. We, I, you ARE government. Too many people put government on this high pedestal, something to almost be worshiped, if not, highly looked up to. They don’t do anything. They are WE. WE are THEY. Some of us, mostly who don’t want make much money (IMHO)but enjoy power, work for government, and make these things happen for the common good using OUR money. In a representative republic like the United States has our representatives are supposed to implement the will of the local people that elected them. We, us, want roads, so we, us, elect representatives to go make that happen. If we don’t like how much money they spent on the roads or how they were built we fire them and elect someone new. I love listening to politicians, lecture business, and how they should feel lucky to have the roads that the government provided them. You know from that money tree that government gets all its money from? What a joke.

You're far more confused than I am on the Constitutional Republic we live in and I see a lot of projection here on worship of some image of it...

That said, the current ICE bans in the US are all at the state. Where, as you stated, the politicians are doing the will of their voters. So, from your perspective, this should be a perfect path as it is the most in line with "federalism".

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The Government doesn't subsidize roads. Where do people get this understanding? The gas tax pays for roads. "Subsidizing" is the absence of taxing, not the generation of taxation. The Government subsidizes oil for a myriad of reasons that benefits national security to supporting the economy by reducing the prices of products that rely on petrochemicals, which is nearly everything one buys or needs in life; from food, clothing, housing, electricity, and God say it, clean air and health care.

EV tax credits are targeted taxes that do not benefit the whole of society as does a federal subsidy to the oil industry. The point is the oil industry doesn't exist because of oil subsidies, it makes products less expensive. I think it is a fair argument to make the EV marketplace via the artificial financial support of Tesla and now all other manufacturers exists only because of the help it got from Governments worldwide. Had not there been the existence of underlying support of conversion from ICE to EV supported by nearly every Governmental body across the planet, I doubt the level of capital investment in Tesla via its over-inflated stock price would have ever materialized.

What? Subsidization is what happens when the government uses its purse to pay for anything. Since it is all being paid for with public funds. Gas taxes don't fund road construction and maintenance fully and even if it did it would still be a subsidy...

I also find it quite ironic that all of your "benefits" of subsidies for the oil industry are much more effective in a renewable energy future. Making a case for government subsidies to get us there...

"The Government subsidizes oil for a myriad of reasons that benefits national security to supporting the economy by reducing the prices of products that rely on petrochemicals, which is nearly everything one buys or needs in life; from food, clothing, housing, electricity, and God say it, clean air and health care."

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

You're far more confused than I am on the Constitutional Republic we live in and I see a lot of projection here on worship of some image of it...

That said, the current ICE bans in the US are all at the state. Where, as you stated, the politicians are doing the will of their voters. So, from your perspective, this should be a perfect path as it is the most in line with "federalism".



What? Subsidization is what happens when the government uses its purse to pay for anything. Since it is all being paid for with public funds. Gas taxes don't fund road construction and maintenance fully and even if it did it would still be a subsidy...

I also find it quite ironic that all of your "benefits" of subsidies for the oil industry are much more effective in a renewable energy future. Making a case for government subsidies to get us there...

"The Government subsidizes oil for a myriad of reasons that benefits national security to supporting the economy by reducing the prices of products that rely on petrochemicals, which is nearly everything one buys or needs in life; from food, clothing, housing, electricity, and God say it, clean air and health care."

I didn’t specify the US government. However in Europe it is at the federal level

[Tim_M56]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Have you ever been to Wyoming? If you have, you'd understand why EV is low on the purchasing hiearchy of Wyomians.

And 20 years ago, when there was no real social media, life was actually better; not everyone in the US was pissed at each other and hunkered down in tribalism, instituted to divide and conquer through political unrest.

I have not but looking to travel there for a road trip one day. I would think it's something that some people are interested in, and to block them is silly.

Social media I agree is a blessing and a curse, made us more connected but the algorithms pushed hate content and things that purposely make us angry. Most of us have more in common than we expect but get pushed into tribes.

[DavesZupra4]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Any chance you are married to an American chick, last name Markle?

Nah. Ukrainian. 7 years now.

[DavesZupra4]

Originally Posted by grannyknot

Absolutely, some excellent points.
As I said, I'm not a big EV proponent, but the alternative is what, continue to dump endless amounts of carbon into the atmosphere?
I'm just looking around at what alternatives there might be.
Somewhere along the line we're going to reach a tipping point and then you'll see everyone desperately back peddling as fast as they can but I'm afraid it will be too late by then.
I don't have the answers that's for sure, just looking for them.

I love ice too. I've driven a few teslas including the plaid. The acceleration gets boring and it's definitely no track car. I like track cars and engine noise.

But like I said in my original post, we can keep ICE for nice motorsports because we are a niche minority anyway. A couple hundred thousand cars used on tracks once In a while is nothing compared to hundreds of.millions gas guzzling cars on the road driven by people who Dont understand cars and can't drive anyway. Electric suits them.better

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by DavesZupra4

I love ice too. I've driven a few teslas including the plaid. The acceleration gets boring and it's definitely no track car. I like track cars and engine noise.

But like I said in my original post, we can keep ICE for nice motorsports because we are a niche minority anyway. A couple hundred thousand cars used on tracks once In a while is nothing compared to hundreds of.millions gas guzzling cars on the road driven by people who Dont understand cars and can't drive anyway. Electric suits them.better

I have to admire your consistency. Now you are telling everybody what’s good for them as far as what kind of cars they should drive. Very good comrade.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I didn’t specify the US government. However in Europe it is at the federal level

Yet we don’t see complaints from EU member countries on this policy. Governments that are beholden to their people too.

Instead we get people like you reaching across the pond to critique their pathways…

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

Yet we don’t see complaints from EU member countries on this policy. Governments that are beholden to their people too.

Instead we get people like you reaching across the pond to critique their pathways…

Brother, I don’t really care what they do over there. They can go back to horses for all I care. I promise.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Onesie

Wow… they truly do live among us… smh
Are you for real? And you laughed at HIM at the end?

Why wouldn’t I be? Someone has to point out the nonsense here.

Just like how the typewriter manufacturer laughed at the Computer and bemoaned at the US Government for creating the Internet. The world is moving on from ICE cars.

But I’m sure you can still find a typewriter manufacturer or two who are certain the computer will fail any day now and everyone will line up for a typewriter again!

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

Why wouldn’t I be? Someone has to point out the nonsense here.

Just like how the typewriter manufacturer laughed at the Computer and bemoaned at the US Government for creating the Internet. The world is moving on from ICE cars.

But I’m sure you can still find a typewriter manufacturer or two who are certain the computer will fail any day now and everyone will line up for a typewriter again!

As as if you guys just refuse to acknowledge the truth here. Be honest and answer this on question with ONLY yes or no.

Question- Would EV even be at 10% where they are now without government mandates?

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

Apparently it is there are kids in my child H.S. That identify as a squirrels there’s a school in Illinois that had placed litter box in the bathroom because there’s a group of students identifying as cats. So yes. You can be a rock these days 😂I am not sure it’s healthy though

WHAT?? That's insanity...