[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Levi

Renault-Nissan

http://ecomento.com/2014/05/27/top-5...ars-in-the-us/

http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/2014...vehicle/54170/

What do you mean by "League"? Sure nobody sells any large expensive electric sedan. It is also is not the point, as it is a niche, if EV is the future also less riche should be able to drive EV. Lexus has a faster and better car than BMW, but what is the point if most can't afford it, unlike M4?

By league I mean performance, build quality, desirability, etc. The Leaf, Volt, and Prius (plugin version) are all great cars, but they're not in the same league as the Tesla Model S, much in the way that a Civic, Mazda 3, and Cruze are not in the same league as a BMW 550i.

Whether or not it is a niche has nothing to do with whether it is innovative. I'm just responding to something you said:

Originally Posted by Levi

I just don't see what innovation has Tesla brought. That they started selling highly expensive so called luxury electric sedans highly subsidised? They even ripped off Maserati and Aston Martin design. Tesla is just as innovative as iPhone 6.

Maybe you meant something different. The definition of innovation is literally "to innovate". The definition of innovate is: make changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas, or products.

Tesla is doing that. No one else builds an EV that is anywhere close to the Model S in specification or performance. I'm sure someone will eventually, but right now, they're an innovator. Nissan-Renault are/were innovators as well, but for different reasons. There can be many innovators in a market.

You can either concede the point, or you can keep circling around the facts and change your argument, but you cannot continue to say that Tesla hasn't innovated in light of the car the produce and the fervor with which the market has adopted it.

[Efthreeoh]

So the concept of renewable energy is laughable. It's only considered renewable if it happens in your lifetime. All energy is renewable... (hint... there's an equation about it). It's just a matter of the timeframe.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Niche?
Is 5-er, A6, or E550 a niche?
Tesla will haul 5 adults and 2 kids with their luggage (3 adults and 3 kids in my case)
It can do cross-country spending $0 on gas
Yes you wait 30-40min while it's charging, but guess what?
By the time you get to your next charger, you'll need to either use bathroom or eat. 300mile ~ 4-5 hrs driving
Now, when you have a few kids, you're not waiting for your car to charge
Car is fully charged waiting for you to comeback from lunch, etc

Have you driven your Tesla across the country?

[matbl]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

The point you are missing is the size of our economy is what makes windmills and solar panels incompatible with our desired level of growth right now. It would simply take too many windmills and solar panels to fuel our economy. Now if we were satisfied with negative growth (like some environmental activists desire), we might be able to use only the weather to provide energy.

You also have a substantial larger land mass...
But my point is not to use solar or wind. These are just for a few percent if even that. Point is a massive build out of nuclear and hydro. That would be viable even in the US. If I'm not mistaken you quite a lot of large and medium rivers without hydro power generation.

[matbl]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

The point you are missing is the size of our economy is what makes windmills and solar panels incompatible with our desired level of growth right now.

One more thing.
And if you include nuclear and hydro as I originally stated (no larger country relies on solar and wind alone) and that nuclear and hydro is at least 90-95% of the energy production, do you come to the same conclusion? If so, why?

[3s-a-charm]

Driving an EV long distances (road trips) is definitely not as convenient as a gas vehicle but not too bad with Tesla and the Superchargers. It's the average daily commute and driving that 99% of us do 95% of the time where the Tesla shines. Plug it in each night like your iPhone. Full "tank" costs $8 or so for 300+ miles of range and every day you have a full tank. No more stopping at smelly gas stations and watching the pump churn through dollars on the display while (in my area anyways) freezing outside.

Totally different ownership experience. No oil changes or regular maintenance other than windshield washer fluid. Brakes last for ever with regen braking.

Oh, and it's the quickest 4-door sedan on the planet. Smooth, powerful acceleration with no gear changes and monster torque.

Sounds pretty innovative to me...

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Have you driven your Tesla across the country?

We never done this type of trip, so not sure
Not many people do cross-country
As soon as the baby a little older we might think of going somewhere, possibly Miami
But decision is not based on the car, but what kind of vacation is next
I did like our trip to Boston
We supercharged and even got free charging in garage we parked next to attraction.

[Bimmeration]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

No, really, what car takes 30 minutes to refuel?

Let me answer to your question. Tesla does not need time to drive around, get on or off ramps, get or wait in line for gas. It "refuels" as we sleep at home, then we get plenty of juice all day everyday. I think you'll need to do more research to properly support your point, particularly on the time "actually" consumed in an more aggregate perspective.

[FTS]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102223817

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by Bimmeration

Tesla does not need time to drive around, get on or off ramps, get or wait in line for gas. It "refuels" as we sleep at home, then we get plenty of juice all day everyday. I think you'll need to do more research to properly support your point, particularly on the time "actually" consumed in an more aggregate perspective.

Your arrogance is nauseating.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Bimmeration

Let me answer to your question. Tesla does not need time to drive around, get on or off ramps, get or wait in line for gas. It "refuels" as we sleep at home, then we get plenty of juice all day everyday. I think you'll need to do more research to properly support your point, particularly on the time "actually" consumed in an more aggregate perspective.

Laugh frickin out loud. Seriously? So since you are asleep, your Tesla takes no time to "refuel"? Okay, you go with that. I'm sorry but the majority of petro car owners refuel their care while out on a trip of some sort, whether commuting to school, work, or running errands. I refuel my car at least two times a week, and I spend no longer than 10 minutes total with the process, and that includes a under-hood check and recording my fuel purchase.

You'd have to be a total ass to count the stand alone trip to a gas station as part of the refueling time. A drive from Washington DC to Boston, when counted with a Tesla supercharger refuel (probably two would be required) would be far faster accomplished in an ICE automobile. So stop making shit up.

I suggest you go read the article Car and Driver published a few years ago where they raced a 1915 Ford Model T against a Tesla S from Detroit to Nikola Tesla’s old Wardenclyffe laboratory in Shoreham, Long Island, NYC. In elapsed time the Tesla beat the Model T by about 1 hour. However the Model T had to travel about 45 miles farther due to it's route that kept it off high-speed freeways, which when counted as average miles per-hour for the trip the T's average MPH was a 32.8 vs. the S's 32.4 MPH.

[Bimmeration]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Laugh frickin out loud. Seriously? So since you are asleep, your Tesla takes no time to "refuel"? Okay, you go with that. I'm sorry but the majority of petro car owners refuel their care while out on a trip of some sort, whether commuting to school, work, or running errands. I refuel my car at least two times a week, and I spend no longer than 10 minutes total with the process, and that includes a under-hood check and recording my fuel purchase.

You'd have to be a total ass to count the stand alone trip to a gas station as part of the refueling time. A drive from Washington DC to Boston, when counted with a Tesla supercharger refuel (probably two would be required) would be far faster accomplished in an ICE automobile. So stop making shit up.

I suggest you go read the article Car and Driver published a few years ago where they raced a 1915 Ford Model T against a Tesla S from Detroit to Nikola Tesla’s old Wardenclyffe laboratory in Shoreham, Long Island, NYC. In elapsed time the Tesla beat the Model T by about 1 hour. However the Model T had to travel about 45 miles farther due to it's route that kept it off high-speed freeways, which when counted as average miles per-hour for the trip the T's average MPH was a 32.8 vs. the S's 32.4 MPH.

ooo. emotional and passionate at the same time. no need to waste my time then. enjoy your e90.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Bimmeration

ooo. emotional and passionate at the same time. no need to waste my time then. enjoy your e90.

Roger that.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Laugh frickin out loud. Seriously? So since you are asleep, your Tesla takes no time to "refuel"? Okay, you go with that. I'm sorry but the majority of petro car owners refuel their care while out on a trip of some sort, whether commuting to school, work, or running errands. I refuel my car at least two times a week, and I spend no longer than 10 minutes total with the process, and that includes a under-hood check and recording my fuel purchase.

You'd have to be a total ass to count the stand alone trip to a gas station as part of the refueling time. A drive from Washington DC to Boston, when counted with a Tesla supercharger refuel (probably two would be required) would be far faster accomplished in an ICE automobile. So stop making shit up.

I suggest you go read the article Car and Driver published a few years ago where they raced a 1915 Ford Model T against a Tesla S from Detroit to Nikola Teslas old Wardenclyffe laboratory in Shoreham, Long Island, NYC. In elapsed time the Tesla beat the Model T by about 1 hour. However the Model T had to travel about 45 miles farther due to it's route that kept it off high-speed freeways, which when counted as average miles per-hour for the trip the T's average MPH was a 32.8 vs. the S's 32.4 MPH.

Last time I checked, it takes 5 min just to pump gas into the car
That's excluding paying, driving to station and sometimes, wait in line or attendant to service your car (NJ has that mandatory)
You are extremely lucky to spend so little time
Though my guess will be you put at least 30min weekly just to pump gas
Multiply that by 52 weeks and we are talking good time of your life in gas stations.
Not to mention bad weather and all the fumes you inhale in the process
Tesla owner spends roughly 2-3 sec a day to plug. And leaves the house always filled up.
For those occasional trips, which cost nothing to refuel owner can use a little longer break at the rest area when the car is charging.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Last time I checked, it takes 5 min just to pump gas into the car
That's excluding paying, driving to station and sometimes, wait in line or attendant to service your car (NJ has that mandatory)
You are extremely lucky to spend so little time
Though my guess will be you put at least 30min weekly just to pump gas
Multiply that by 52 weeks and we are talking good time of your life in gas stations.
Not to mention bad weather and all the fumes you inhale in the process
Tesla owner spends roughly 2-3 sec a day to plug. And leaves the house always filled up.
For those occasional trips, which cost nothing to refuel owner can use a little longer break at the rest area when the car is charging.

Who waits on gas lines? Having flashbacks to the gas crisis in the 70s?
I think the fact that an electric car has so few places it can recharge, and that it takes so incredibly long (relatively speaking), makes your position sound pretty silly to these ears.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Who waits on gas lines? Having flashbacks to the gas crisis in the 70s?
I think the fact that an electric car has so few places it can recharge, and that it takes so incredibly long (relatively speaking), makes your position sound pretty silly to these ears.

I take it you've never been to a Costco.

I think the point he was making is that a Tesla recharges itself overnight, as most owners will simply plug it in once they're done driving for the day. A car with the range that a Tesla has is more than sufficient for driving around town, to and from work, running errands, etc.

The only time it wouldn't be sufficient is for those long road trips which you probably make around 3-5 times a year. No one is going to drive cross country most likely as, by that point, it's likely cheaper to fly.

But overall I agree with you, due to the lack of overall infrastructure and lack of technology, it isn't really feasible nor practical to take a Tesla on long road trips unless you just so happen to have a supercharger station along the way and don't mind sitting around for 30 minutes or so.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Last time I checked, it takes 5 min just to pump gas into the car
That's excluding paying, driving to station and sometimes, wait in line or attendant to service your car (NJ has that mandatory)
You are extremely lucky to spend so little time
Though my guess will be you put at least 30min weekly just to pump gas
Multiply that by 52 weeks and we are talking good time of your life in gas stations.
Not to mention bad weather and all the fumes you inhale in the process
Tesla owner spends roughly 2-3 sec a day to plug. And leaves the house always filled up.
For those occasional trips, which cost nothing to refuel owner can use a little longer break at the rest area when the car is charging.

Dude, I drive 800 miles a week to work. I fill up two times one week, then 3 times the next week (i.e. every two days). I fill up at an Exxon station using a card at the pump. I don't go inside the station to pay. The station is at an intersection I pass through every day. I don't make a special trip to the gas station, I don't sit in a gas line, the station has 12 pumps so I never wait for a pump. I spend 5 minutes pumping gas, maybe 6 max. The station has a roof over the pump area. Yup it gets cold, but I'm not a pussy and can stand in the cold for a few minutes, or get back in my car with the REST heat on. I've been smelling gas fumes for 50+ years and I'm not dead yet. LOL. Stop making crap up that it takes less time to refuel a Tesla, it doesn't. This is a completely STUPID and IDIOTIC argument. If I paid someone to go fill up my car does that mean it takes ME zero minutes to fill up?

And as far as spending my time at the gas station, I use that time to inspect the car, under the hood, and tires, which any good driver should do.

And just to make this discussion REALLY stupid, if I owned a Tesla (and I've looked into it in a very detailed fashion - it would cost me $17,000/year to own and operate one), it would take me and extra 5 minutes a day to fill up the Tesla. The closest place on my property that I could charge up the Tesla is my garage, which is a 3-minute walk from the house, so that's about 5 minutes a day I'd spend walking over and back to the car (it takes me 45 seconds to walk to my E90). The walk to the garage is not covered, so when it rains, I'd get soaking wet (let alone stand out in the rain plugging the car in - I keep my tractor in the garage). So owning and refueling a Tesla for me actually takes more time out of my life than refueling my E90 (if you count the time it takes me to walk over and back from the garage...); 25 minutes vs. 10 at the gas station every week.

Get it now?

Christ.

[AndreyATC]

Electric is not for you then
Great design to have your garage on 3-min-walking distance

Mine is right under my house
I enjoy not having a cold-start fumes filling my home when I leave
I enjoy not having to drive 5 miles to the nearest gas station, which is opposite way from my commute
I just enjoy having great technology
I'm also happy BMW is going forward with i-series
Where did you pull your 17k/year estimate?
Is it your behind perhaps

P.S. Just so we are clear. I didn't say it takes less time to fill up, it just takes zero personal time for me
For those trips, I can live with 30-60 min lunch breaks on supercharger 2-3 times a year, while pulling free electrons

Get it?

[Vectors2final]

The Supercharger network is about to blow up, too.

[matbl]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

And just to make this discussion REALLY stupid, if I owned a Tesla (and I've looked into it in a very detailed fashion - it would cost me $17,000/year to own and operate one), it would take me and extra 5 minutes a day to fill up the Tesla. The closest place on my property that I could charge up the Tesla is my garage, which is a 3-minute walk from the house, so that's about 5 minutes a day I'd spend walking over and back to the car (it takes me 45 seconds to walk to my E90). The walk to the garage is not covered, so when it rains, I'd get soaking wet (let alone stand out in the rain plugging the car in - I keep my tractor in the garage). So owning and refueling a Tesla for me actually takes more time out of my life than refueling my E90 (if you count the time it takes me to walk over and back from the garage...); 25 minutes vs. 10 at the gas station every week.

So you don't park your car in your garage because it's about 1000 feet from your house... Ok, on a farm or similar it might be a hassle, I get that.
For most people, the garage is about 10 feet or less from the house and it's actually used to park the car in.
You plug it in when you get home and when you have to use the car the next day, it's charged. Or if you don't drive that much each day (like me) you plug it in once or twice a week.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Electric is not for you then
Great design to have your garage on 3-min-walking distance

Mine is right under my house
I enjoy not having a cold-start fumes filling my home when I leave
I enjoy not having to drive 5 miles to the nearest gas station, which is opposite way from my commute
I just enjoy having great technology
I'm also happy BMW is going forward with i-series
Where did you pull your 17k/year estimate?
Is it your behind perhaps

P.S. Just so we are clear. I didn't say it takes less time to fill up, it just takes zero personal time for me
For those trips, I can live with 30-60 min lunch breaks on supercharger 2-3 times a year, while pulling free electrons

Get it?

60 -month car payment about $1,187.35/month + $101 for electricity (3,300 miles/month) + $2,301.01 state personal annual property tax = $17,761.04 per year. I'd love to get a Tesla, but right now the total cost of ownership is too high. I've got nothing against the car, except the people who try and justify it re-fill cycle is better than an ICE vehicle; it's not, just get over it. If it works for you great, but not every car works for every personal situation.

Garage is a workshop for wood working and automobiles. House is 250 years old, just can't add a garage onto it because it would look stupid. I built a 3-car carport for most of my cars which is 45 seconds from the house but has no electricity in it. The OP assumed I spend 30-minutes fueling my car, he's wrong, and this is a stupid conversation. I originally asked what car takes 30-minutes to fill up (actually put fuel into its storage tank) and we get into some dumb-ass conversation about personal time. Until the EV came out with long charge cycles no one ever considered "personal time" as a car buying decision factor; this is a made-up stupid argument.

[AndreyATC]

Efthreeoh,
It is unfortunate you have to pay so much tax on the car, not many states charge property tax on a vehicle
But it's not related to Tesla, it's any brand
Some states dont even charge sale tax when you purchase electric vehicle, plus you get 7500 rebate next year
Many BMW owners are enjoying driving experience and tech in their cars
Some people buy them for status as well
Tesla has similar customers, but its product is a bit different
There is no reason to argue specific points here. As for some people it worth owning one over the other.
I bought it because i need to transport 3 adults and 3 kids
I have a garage and solar panels on my roof
BMW does not yet offer a car (X7 might) that could comfortably accommodate large families. You have to buy a gasler that drives like a boat and doesnt fit in some garages
And you either need second commute car to save on gas, or use gasler on your commute.
Every situation is different