[amanda hor$t]

Originally Posted by FwdFtl

I beg to differ.

http://www.redfin.com/CA/Monrovia/54...6/home/7965959

http://www.redfin.com/CA/Monrovia/87...6/home/7966083

http://www.redfin.com/CA/Covina/2062...4/home/7942826

the house with all the doll pics was creepy though :/

you're right, 600k will get you at least a decent townhouse/condo in a better suburb of l.a. (which i think is optimal given that everyone drives anyway)

[Hawkeye]

Hey, goat rodeo! I think I saw you on a "rich kids of Instagram" post recently...

[Zeros and ones]

Originally Posted by pgviper

Judging by your username and analysis of the situation, I can only guess what you do for a living lol.



Anywway, back on topic. I live on LI and to afford a house on the island on a single person income is extremely difficuly (i refuse to live in a shit shack 1950's baby boomer house). Also, anything in the 5 boroughs will run you at least 400k for a small one bedroom. If you are young, its tough to save up a down payment for something like that. In which case I completely agree with what Goat_Rodeo was saying.

As you make valuable points the area that you live in is extremely different than living CA and in certain areas that you do live in does sometimes make sense to rent via NYC. I am very aware of what even a loft in a shitty part of NYC goes for or even what an apartment that is for sale goes for.

However the OP does not live in NYC, DC, or in Texas or anywhere else for that matter. He lives in CA.

Originally Posted by pgviper

Another reason to rent is if you are uncertain of where your future will bring you. As OP seems to be young (just recently graduated) as am I, it makes sense to rent until you figure out where you are going to be located for the long term instead of paying all of the taxes/lawyer fees up front only to sell and have to buy somewhere else within a year or two.

This is an extremely valid point and it can incline someone to just keep on renting and renting and renting. Anything can happen. You can loose your job, you may need to move out of state, etc.

Unless you are living in a shitty area in LA, renting is very expensive and if you have a good head on your shoulders you can find a very nice house in a nice part of town in LA and pay either less or on par with rent.

And if you do decide to move to another state, up north in CA, or just in other parts, the money you make off of your house to put into another one is tax free.

Now tell me, how does it make sense for two people to pay $3000 a month on a 1200 square foot apartment in LA when they can easily get a house that is much larger. Keep in mind they have been living their for over 6 years and yes their argument is like yours, we still haven't figured out what to do with our lives.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by bosster hymen

though hey, i'm just sayin' as a 34 y/o who's already retired in a paid off townhouse. my m3's old, wouldn't mind a new one but is it worth going back to the grind for a newer car?

Trust fund babies don't count... You got everything from your parents.

[amanda hor$t]

Originally Posted by Zeros and ones

This is an extremely valid point and it can incline someone to just keep on renting and renting and renting. Anything can happen. You can loose your job, you may need to move out of state, etc.

Unless you are living in a shitty area in LA, renting is very expensive and if you have a good head on your shoulders you can find a very nice house in a nice part of town in LA and pay either less or on par with rent.

And if you do decide to move to another state, up north in CA, or just in other parts, the money you make off of your house to put into another one is tax free.

Now tell me, how does it make sense for two people to pay $3000 a month on a 1200 square foot apartment in LA when they can easily get a house that is much larger. Keep in mind they have been living their for over 6 years and yes their argument is like yours, we still haven't figured out what to do with our lives.

it's pretty simple: paying for the moment vs. paying into a stable (and easier) future. i've done both at different times in my life, and while i've experienced some losses from real estate investments, overall it's a huge win.

don't be one of those that lives rich one meal at a time

[Goat Rodeo]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

Hey, goat rodeo! I think I saw you on a "rich kids of Instagram" post recently...

Don't miss my point. I'm saying I'm living in a house well beyond my means in the middle of everywhere but I'm paying peanuts for the privilege. I'm not rich, just careful with my money.

People, especially a few generations older, always say "you're renting? you should buy a home!" I go home, spreadsheet out the numbers, and scratch my head. Why?

Originally Posted by bosster hymen

it's pretty simple: paying for the moment vs. paying into a stable (and easier) future. i've done both at different times in my life, and while i've experienced some losses from real estate investments, overall it's a huge win.

I'd argue it's far from simple. Finding the correct balance is difficult. I have been building a sizable liquid net worth for the last decade; yet I do not own a home, have any plans to own a home, and rent with roommates. What people spend on a house I am able to save and invest. I have spent many hours pouring over spreadsheets analyzing where my money goes; I am far better off renting when quality of life is taken into consideration.

Then again my ideal lifestyle is probably three or four (probably rented) pied-a-terres in LA, NYC, Paris, and a Swan 80. One can dream. I realize that for a lot of people having a home that you own is the most solid thing in life, whereas I find the lack of ownership to be freeing.

My original point was don't knock a dude in his 20s with a M3 because he rents.

[Goat Rodeo]

Originally Posted by FwdFtl

I beg to differ.

the house with all the doll pics was creepy though :/

Good point. To be honest I have only lived in LA for about six months; I spent most of my time in CA in SF. So my perspective comes from the northeast and DC.

I do know my brother just bought his first home for 600K in a Boston suburb. And if I didn't know better looking at the photos I would think he lived in a housing project.

[amanda hor$t]

Originally Posted by Goat Rodeo

I'd argue it's far from simple. Finding the correct balance is difficult. I have been building a sizable liquid net worth for the last decade; yet I do not own a home, have any plans to own a home, and rent with roommates. What people spend on a house I am able to save and invest. I have spent many hours pouring over spreadsheets analyzing where my money goes; I am far better off renting when quality of life is taken into consideration.

Then again my ideal lifestyle is probably three or four (probably rented) pied-a-terres in LA, NYC, Paris, and a Swan 80. One can dream. I realize that for a lot of people having a home that you own is the most solid thing in life, whereas I find the lack of ownership to be freeing.

real estate has always been a stable long-term investment. no matter what it's worth on paper, you'll always have a plot to live in, scratch some rental income, or grow tomatoes. any stock or business can become worthless in a few short years.

no more payments. ever... it's a powerful concept

[Goat Rodeo]

Originally Posted by bosster hymen

real estate has always been a stable long-term investment. no matter what it's worth on paper, you'll always have a plot to live in, scratch some rental income, or grow tomatoes. any stock or business can become worthless in a few short years.

no more payments. ever... it's a powerful concept

House:
- Real estate taxes
- Maintenance
- Upgrades required to maintain saleability (have you priced a kitchen or bathroom remodel lately?)

Renting:
- Having to deal with tenants
- Having to deal with tenants
- Having to deal with a management company

There are easier ways to make money. Any stock or business can become worthless yes, but you seem to ignore what has happened since 2007. Many real estate investments have become worthless or worse as well.

For example, my friend
- Bought a fixer-upper house near the water in a well located development for about 300K in 2006. Comps were around 400K.
- Invested 50K replacing AC, remodeling kitchen, flooring, replacing water heater, etc.
- Pays 5K per annum or whatever in taxes
- House is currently worth 180K, comps are around 150-180K
- Because he only spent 50K remodeling the place people are passing on his unit even for 180K because he needed to spend about 100K to compare with fit and finish of longer term owners.
- Currently rents it out for about $1200/mo

Had he invested that 300K in the stock market at the *worst part* in 2007 and just held through the downturn till now he would probably have ~500K worst case right now. Instead he is significantly upside down and has to deal with tenants.

[amanda hor$t]

Originally Posted by Goat Rodeo

House:
- Real estate taxes
- Maintenance
- Upgrades required to maintain saleability (have you priced a kitchen or bathroom remodel lately?)

Renting:
- Having to deal with tenants
- Having to deal with tenants
- Having to deal with a management company

There are easier ways to make money. Any stock or business can become worthless yes, but you seem to ignore what has happened since 2007. Many real estate investments have become worthless or worse as well.

For example, my friend
- Bought a fixer-upper house near the water in a well located development for about 300K in 2006. Comps were around 400K.
- Invested 50K replacing AC, remodeling kitchen, flooring, replacing water heater, etc.
- Pays 5K per annum or whatever in taxes
- House is currently worth 180K, comps are around 150-180K
- Because he only spent 50K remodeling the place people are passing on his unit even for 180K because he needed to spend about 100K to compare with fit and finish of longer term owners.
- Currently rents it out for about $1200/mo

Had he invested that 300K in the stock market at the *worst part* in 2007 and just held through the downturn till now he would probably have ~500K worst case right now. Instead he is significantly upside down and has to deal with tenants.

here's a peek into my personal reit (no mortgages):
townhouse in a better suburb of l.a.: bought 260k in 2000, currently pushing 800k
apartment in china: bought new 150k in '03, also pushing 800k now

i've remodeled my kitchen once, and it's still good. property taxes are an expense, but rent EASILY outpaces that. 50k and the place is easily a full remodel. the next forseeable maintenance? a new a/c (~3k), and i've been eyeing that for years.

i work and play at home because i have the space, and it's already paid for. i get great chinese food delivered because it's cheaper, and i have the space to eat here.

one last example: had a college buddy who was already a millionaire by 20. could have bought his seaside penthouse apartment for 300k, but put it all in stocks, and then the dot-com bubble burst. guess what he's doing now? answering sales calls and making payments.

[Templar]

^ should be taken with a grain of salt since he gathered a rather large inheritance from family...

In other words, payment free is definitely a great way to live but not a lot of people can pull that off. And it's a lot easier to do all of that when you inherit all of that money from family at an early age.

All of that money though and still can't get laid (unless it's a prostitute).

[Goat Rodeo]

Originally Posted by bosster hymen

here's a peek into my personal reit (no mortgages):
townhouse in a better suburb of l.a.: bought 260k in 2000, currently pushing 800k
apartment in china: bought new 150k in '03, also pushing 800k now

Wow, good job.

Had I been able to invest in real estate in the early 2000s rather than being in high school, I probably would have a totally different perspective.

[NemesisX]

Originally Posted by Zeros and ones

very constructive input. If you don't have anything worth of value don't speak. You can join the other meat heads in the corner.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. And I know you personally don't think that simply being able to pay lease payments constitutes being able to truly "afford" a car (you were just doing that for simplicity's sake), but a lot of people do.

If all it takes to afford an M3 is being able to pay $787/month in lease payments in the short term, then I know people making around 2x the poverty line who can "afford" M3s. People never seem to do the math on opportunity costs (what is $700/month perennially invested in the market with an average return of, say, 5.0% worth 20, 30, 40 years from now at retirement had you purchased a used, economy car and kept it for many years). And, people never seem to appreciate the degree to which they're gutting their future net worth by purchasing (well, leasing) expensive toys early on in their life.

[Goat Rodeo]

Originally Posted by NemesisX

(what is $700/month perennially invested in the market with an average return of, say, 5.0% worth 20, 30, 40 years from now at retirement had you purchased a used, economy car and kept it for many years).

20 313,929.42
30 622,294.95
40 1,124,589.91

Certainly, if $700 month is all you can save, then you should not be driving a M3.

However, let's say you already invest $75,000 per annum every year for the same durations and return:

20 2,802,941.21
30 5,556,204.92
40 10,040,981.38

What does that additional $8400/yr do?

20 3,116,870.63
30 6,178,499.87
40 11,165,571.29

Personally I would be quite happy to have 5.5m rather than 6.1m and have NOT driven a shitbox for 30 years of my life. Furthermore, five minutes on YouTube watching IIHS tests will convince you of the need for a newer, modern car for daily driving. The average nice car is $300-$400/mo so the actual savings of the economy car are far lower than above. Unless you're OK with your wife and kids driving in a 90s Corolla..

[TXSTYLE]

Originally Posted by Kwando

Or don't buy a M3 if you're renting with roommates

[amanda hor$t]

Originally Posted by Goat Rodeo

Personally I would be quite happy to have 5.5m rather than 6.1m and have NOT driven a shitbox for 30 years of my life. Furthermore, five minutes on YouTube watching IIHS tests will convince you of the need for a newer, modern car for daily driving. The average nice car is $300-$400/mo so the actual savings of the economy car are far lower than above. Unless you're OK with your wife and kids driving in a 90s Corolla..

agree, it's worth it to buy a nice car, just don't keep trading it in for essentially the same thing. a lexus will pretty much last forever on toyota parts, just change the oil. bmw too, though parts are a little more expensive but still pretty easy to own if you take care of it. any decent car today is rated at 500k miles, yet most think it's time to update after a tenth of that.

[NemesisX]

Originally Posted by Goat Rodeo

20 313,929.42
30 622,294.95
40 1,124,589.91

Certainly, if $700 month is all you can save, then you should not be driving a M3.

However, let's say you already invest $75,000 per annum every year for the same durations and return:

20 2,802,941.21
30 5,556,204.92
40 10,040,981.38

What does that additional $8400/yr do?

20 3,116,870.63
30 6,178,499.87
40 11,165,571.29

Personally I would be quite happy to have 5.5m rather than 6.1m and have NOT driven a shitbox for 30 years of my life. Furthermore, five minutes on YouTube watching IIHS tests will convince you of the need for a newer, modern car for daily driving. The average nice car is $300-$400/mo so the actual savings of the economy car are far lower than above. Unless you're OK with your wife and kids driving in a 90s Corolla..

Yeah I agree completely. If you're otherwise saving $75k/year, then yes, the difference between 5.5 and 6.1 is negligible.

But I should mention a lot of people here seem to think one can afford a $90K M3 on much, much less, and I'd be genuinely blown away if I found out that the typical M3 owner is in line for amassing a $5M+ liquid net worth in his lifetime.

For reference, today only 0.9% of U.S. households have a liquid net worth (not including primary residence) of $1M+ (apologies for the European posters here, but I don't have HNWI stats for europe on hand).

Edit: I found a quick reference chart showing the percentage for other countries -



Looks like $1M+ (USD) puts you into the top 0.7% in the UK.

And strictly speaking, this is just $1M in investable assets (not net worth) but I'm sure the numbers are pretty close. If anything, the only debt I would assume is mortgage debt on a primary residence or something, but IIRC most people in this class have already paid off their primary mortgage.

But yeah again I agree completely with you if those are the numbers are you are considering. $8400/year extra on top of $75k/year won't affect your quality of living much down the road, and someone like that can clearly and comfortably afford an M3 in my eyes. I'm just not sure if that's the norm (it might be, but I'm not sure).

[amanda hor$t]

Originally Posted by NemesisX

And strictly speaking, this is just $1M in investable assets (not net worth) but I'm sure the numbers are pretty close.

probably. the difference between investable assets and net worth is as simple as changing your address to your mom's house

[991brothers]

Wow did this thread get way off topic.

OP i would probably(if you dont care about him) report him. that is beyond messed up and thats basically stealing your property

[Vic311]

Originally Posted by NavidM3E92

Wow did this thread get way off topic.

Another marginal thread that's been jacked by the usual suspects..injected with oxy and steroids and morphed into the creature from the Black Lagoon.

[Z4inAZ]

What do you guys think about frilly toothpicks?

I'M FOR EM!!!

[991brothers]

Originally Posted by Vic311

Another marginal thread that's been jacked by the usual suspects..injected with oxy and steroids and morphed into the creature from the Black Lagoon.

lol