[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

This is the design language of the new generation BMW Z-Car. I cannot wait !

Interesting. We'll have to see what makes it into production, but the rear end is nice. Not a huge fan of the front end sketch.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Rated ///M Power

The i8 is NOT a sports car. It's a statement.

Wow... You nailed it !

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Rated ///M Power

Interesting. We'll have to see what makes it into production, but the rear end is nice. Not a huge fan of the front end sketch.

The front shows the direction of things to come. It's a evolution from what they're currently doing by connecting the headlights to the kidney grills. Like their original designs back in the day it's a throwback in design language. Being more refined hopefully it will look really good on the upcoming Z's.

[FilipMPower]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

The thread is about Z Cars.

Clearly Scott "They" have nothing important or exciting or relevant to talk about.

Any Car Company can build an SUV and any car company can whore out their current design language across the entire line up. Nothing new here.

I always had the opinion of the Z cars always being held back, being a cheap and low-end market. Comepeting with the SLK. I hope BMW actually builds an SL competitor. That would make a statement to the Z cars like the Z8 did.

And yes you could argue that the SUV is the easy car to build. But everyone knows that market share and sales volume is the most important here. The article ("they") mentioned the rising demand for SUVs and the sport car demand shrinking, thus I thought I could add my 2 cents know in case I dont forget later.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by FilipMPower

I always had the opinion of the Z cars always being held back, being a cheap and low-end market. Comepeting with the SLK. I hope BMW actually builds an SL competitor. That would make a statement to the Z cars like the Z8 did.

And yes you could argue that the SUV is the easy car to build. But everyone knows that market share and sales volume is the most important here. The article ("they") mentioned the rising demand for SUVs and the sport car demand shrinking, thus I thought I could add my 2 cents know in case I dont forget later.

Well if BMW wants to make cookies of every size and shape they'd better get cracking because MB isn't f-ing around. BMW cannot forget Porsche isn't shy either and will gladly take away some of the brands consumers by fulfilling every niche of the market that sways people over 1 customer at a time.

[antzcrashing]

The people want a cheaper RWD Z car, BMW fails to provide

[Asbjorn]

Originally Posted by FilipMPower

They did mention the SUV Market, Z cars are fairly irrelevant if there is no major overhaul. As the E89 was worse dynamically than the 3 series...

Totally different cars with very different dynamics depending on whether you compare with the M3 coupe, a 3 series diesel x drive or 320i convertible non M sport. Also with the Z4 you sit lower down and get that roadster seating position far back. It is a completely different driving experience and I personally like it very much.

The problem with the Z4 is when people select 19inch wheels combined with the old generation oem RFTs. It is a big no no. They look nice, but are noisy, uncomfortable and skips instead of gripping over bumbs. BMW should upgrade the tires like they did on the M135i and M cars.

And BTW, even an M3 convertible will have a hard time keeping up with a Z4 if equipped with nonRFTs. But even if people knew that it wouldn't make the Z4 any more or less relevant. The Boxter out-slaloms Astons, Farraris and 911s, but that doesn't mean people dont buy those over the Boxter... you see, people still buy less dynamic cars, like SUVs, because they are indeed relevant to them.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

The people want a cheaper RWD Z car, BMW fails to provide

Correct.

[Asbjorn]

Originally Posted by Rated ///M Power

The i8 is NOT a sports car. It's a statement.

It is both. Even the head of M calls it a "comfortable sports car". And 0-100km/h in 4.4s looks pretty sporty to me.

A super car is what it is not. Although it looks like one.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Asbjorn

Totally different cars with very different dynamics depending on whether you compare with the M3 coupe, a 3 series diesel x drive or 320i convertible non M sport. Also with the Z4 you sit lower down and get that roadster seating position far back. It is a completely different driving experience and I personally like it very much.

The problem with the Z4 is when people select 19inch wheels combined with the old generation oem RFTs. It is a big no no. They look nice, but are noisy, uncomfortable and skips instead of gripping over bumbs. BMW should upgrade the tires like they did on the M135i and M cars.

And BTW, even an M3 convertible will have a hard time keeping up with a Z4 if equipped with nonRFTs. But even if people knew that it wouldn't make the Z4 any more or less relevant. The Boxter out-slaloms Astons, Farraris and 911s, but that doesn't mean people dont buy those over the Boxter... you see, people still buy less dynamic cars, like SUVs, because they are indeed relevant to them.

I will take the Boxster GTS over anything open top currently. Even over the current M4 Vert. It's intoxicating.


I hope BMW can one day bring a Z Car with this kind of DNA.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Asbjorn

It is both. Even the head of M calls it a "comfortable sports car". And 0-100km/h in 4.4s looks pretty sporty to me.

A super car is what it is not. Although it looks like one.

That's a great way of saying it.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

How about some up to date info on the Z-Cars instead... !?!

He's waiting for Mazda to tell him what to say.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

The E86 is probably the last truly good BMW, so nothing wrong there. Like you, I've driven E21's, E30's, E36's and E46's. The first E46's had terrible steering but the M3 had it all sorted out.

Our E82 and E84 have been okay cars, but nothing like the earlier BMW's and I'm not sure we'll get another. The ATS is indeed a better chassis but the engines and transmissions are lacking and resale is embarrassing.

But back to sports cars, BMW just doesn't care. Porsche will always clobber them on the high end and Mazda always will on the bottom end. They did okay with the Z3 and first Z4 where they priced between those two, but this Z4 tried to take it to the Boxster, which was just stupid with the old chassis and absurd to the new chassis.

The reason the MX-5 is the sales leader is because the 2-seat roadster market is small. It's a small market because a lot of people who want a roadster can't afford a $50K "second" car, but a $25K car fits the family budget. My point is Mazda can build and market a single-chassis-design $25K roadster in this day and age where almost every car from the major manufacturers shares a chassis with a second or third model (or at least major chassis components), and Mazda is a much smaller single-brand company than BMW Group (BMW-Mini-Rolls) and much less profitable.

How about if BMW were to not build a 4-door 3 series chassis, modify it to be a 2-door 4-series, then take the 4-seires and make a 4-door hatchback GT out of it... Maybe it could then afford to do a true roadster.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

He's waiting for Mazda to tell him what to say.

[chris82]

"...the unstoppable global trend towards SUVS"

This is an absolutely pathetic trend. The reason people like driving SUVs and why they're becoming so popular has nothing to do with utility. It's just another way to assert your dominance over others on the road. Driving a big, aggressive looking (that's the most important part) SUV is a way to make up for your insecurities. Take a wild guess at what country started this . . . .

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by chris82

"...the unstoppable global trend towards SUVS"

This is an absolutely pathetic trend. The reason people like driving SUVs and why they're becoming so popular has nothing to do with utility. It's just another way to assert your dominance over others on the road. Driving a big, aggressive looking (that's the most important part) SUV is a way to make up for your insecurities. Take a wild guess at what country started this . . . .

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Asbjorn

It is both. Even the head of M calls it a "comfortable sports car". And 0-100km/h in 4.4s looks pretty sporty to me.

A super car is what it is not. Although it looks like one.

If the head of M called the M3 the world's fastest car, does that make it true too?

I've driven the car. The car operates on FWD until the electric motor kicks in. The car is NOT sporty. It's a car that shows you've arrived.

[Manbnda]

I think people are willing to invest in a not so practical car, as long as they can invest also in a practical car they also want. I think thats why the MX5 is feasible, not just for the features, chassis and pleasure to drive factor, price is a big part of the equation here.

I might be wrong but I think a RWD Z2 would have been a hit, as long as BMW would have priced, it fully equipped, in the same price as a fully equipped M235i. And near the same level of performance 0-60 mph. Some people could have bought it as a second car instead of the M235i, as a more unique looking car (this gives a car a more exclusive 'feel') to enjoy driving when no extra space is needed.

With this the Z2 would have not competed with the MX5, it would have been the high performance alternative.

[kooper]

The Z2 and the M supercar are both never going to happen. I honestly cannot remember for how long I've been hearing about these, with it being on an endless loop of "BEING PLANNED FOR PRODUCTION!!! OMG YOU GUYS!!!" to "Z2 and M supercar cancelled :'( "...

Honestly, unless it's on the dealership floor, just don't bother reporting on either one.

[FilipMPower]

Originally Posted by Asbjorn

Totally different cars with very different dynamics depending on whether you compare with the M3 coupe, a 3 series diesel x drive or 320i convertible non M sport. Also with the Z4 you sit lower down and get that roadster seating position far back. It is a completely different driving experience and I personally like it very much.

The problem with the Z4 is when people select 19inch wheels combined with the old generation oem RFTs. It is a big no no. They look nice, but are noisy, uncomfortable and skips instead of gripping over bumbs. BMW should upgrade the tires like they did on the M135i and M cars.

And BTW, even an M3 convertible will have a hard time keeping up with a Z4 if equipped with nonRFTs. But even if people knew that it wouldn't make the Z4 any more or less relevant. The Boxter out-slaloms Astons, Farraris and 911s, but that doesn't mean people dont buy those over the Boxter... you see, people still buy less dynamic cars, like SUVs, because they are indeed relevant to them.

I see your point, but there is still no doubt that the Z4 isn't the car it should be. You would expect the engine, for example, to be placed behind the front axle due to the huuuuge bonnet, but for some reason, BMW pushes the thing right forward. The seating position is good I guess, I don't like that the bonnet is thaaat long, really made me nervous when parking cars like the viper. And with dynamics I meant steering precision as well as balance. In my experience, the Z4 liked to understeer mid-corner at almost every turn, and the steering is still fake like any other BMW steering nowadays, but for some reason it didn't have the precision of the 3 series EPS unit. And I don't like the combination of poor steering and understeer as you never feel the understeer through the wheel, you have to hear the tyres squeeling first.

I respect your decision on owning one, of course I believe you love the car, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. In my own opinion it isn't what I wished it was.

[Nkc]

Originally Posted by FilipMPower

I see your point, but there is still no doubt that the Z4 isn't the car it should be. You would expect the engine, for example, to be placed behind the front axle due to the huuuuge bonnet, but for some reason, BMW pushes the thing right forward. The seating position is good I guess, I don't like that the bonnet is thaaat long, really made me nervous when parking cars like the viper. And with dynamics I meant steering precision as well as balance. In my experience, the Z4 liked to understeer mid-corner at almost every turn, and the steering is still fake like any other BMW steering nowadays, but for some reason it didn't have the precision of the 3 series EPS unit. And I don't like the combination of poor steering and understeer as you never feel the understeer through the wheel, you have to hear the tyres squeeling first.

I respect your decision on owning one, of course I believe you love the car, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. In my own opinion it isn't what I wished it was.

As an ex-owner of a z4 35I with some mods, I agree completely. The car just never felt right. With the ess tune at stage 2, it was pretty quick but handling was quite disappointing in many ways. It's a great comfortable cruiser and it definitely looks great but I just can't call it a sports car under my definition. Actually quite glad that I sold it now.

[eric@helix]

Overall, this was the right move: Let MINI be the FWD alternative to the $30k Miata. I would reduce the BMW line overall by 1/3 and focus on making the remaining 2/3s so good, so irresistible, that people of many demographics would buy them.