[myzmak]

Originally Posted by FC4

Good job dodging his question.

But I'll help you out with your first bit: Any track. Any driver. Any conditions. <$500K German cars faster around a track than a C7 Z06. Go!

Better job missing the point

the point is I expect neither of us actually know the answer because there is relatively little data on Z06 and none of us have the experience with other cars to comment definitively on them. I mean, Probst was 1:27:10 with Z06 and 1:27:17 with 911 turbo. Faster? Sure. But on another day? That is hardly a gap that can't be bridged.

Will I concede it *could* be generally or usually or mostly faster? Yes. Will it always? No.

......and more to the point, is anyone on this forum driving these cars at those limits and noticing those minute differences? Not an effing chance.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by FC4

Good job dodging his question.

But I'll help you out with your first bit: Any track. Any driver. Any conditions. <$500K German cars faster around a track than a C7 Z06. Go!

Who cares faster or not? Best car on any track, road and with any driver, under 500K, is Lexus LFA. Above that price there is only one better car: Pagani Zonda. And if you want the fastest car for the least money, there is nothing better than a GT-R.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by Levi

Who cares faster or not? Best car on any track, road and with any driver, under 500K, is Lexus LFA. Above that price there is only one better car: Pagani Zonda. And if you want the fastest car for the least money, there is nothing better than a GT-R.

I didn't see a single German name here...and the LFA is about as fast as an average, every-day Porsche, Ferrari, or non-Z06 Corvette. Great car, though.

[wisesoul]

Originally Posted by FC4

LOL...you obviously don't spend much time at track days if you think a GT3 Cup car from 10+ years ago is "fast", let alone faster than a C7Z.

I don't know if you were serious mentioning the KTM X-Bow, but I'll pretend you are joking. If you were serious, God help you. Just a hint...a stock Z06 from a generation ago is faster than one.

LOL... You obviously underestimate the effectiveness of slick tires and aero. BTW what the first 911 posted was not a cup car not sure why the ad says it. Cup cars have narrow body work..


The link I posted was a GT3R/RSR. BIG difference in aero to a cup. Hell, a 996 Cup can lap Willow in 1:25 with half the power. Pobst did a 1:25 in the Z06 as well.

Cup (pro driver): lap 3

Show me a Z06 that laps Sebring faster than this (2:08)

1:21 Road Atlanta

I know it's apples to oranges, but you are flat out stupid if you actually think the Z06 can outrun "race cars from 10 years ago"

[Savory]

FC4, the Z06 is fast as hell, no one is debating that. But it is pretty naive to claim (unsubstantiated at that) it's faster than purpose built race cars, even if they are a few years old. It's fantastic to that the Z06 has to be compared to race cars to be beaten, but let's not get full of ourselves lol

[wisesoul]

Originally Posted by FC4

LOL, yeah...I guess you're right. I only have 15 years of racing experience and track a 911 GT3 myself.

Just because you have track experience doesn't mean you can't be wrong lol... The Z06 is awesome, but it ain't a race car as I have shown. Didn't think I'd have to state something so obvious, especially to someone who tracks.

[C62335i]

I LUV my A8 Z06. It is a beast (bites if you not careful).

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by ChicagoM4

A somewhat related story...

With about 2 months remaining on my E89 lease, I was car shopping on a Friday afternoon and decided to go to Grossinger Chevy to test drive a Stingray Z51. Before I drove over, though, I called and made sure they had one in stock that I could test drive, they said yes...

I got there and told them my situation and they saw me pull up in my Z4, so it's not like random kid walking in to drive a corvette. An old fuddy duddy salesman assisted me, unlocked the corvette and let me sit in it while he pulled the specs on that one and some other in storage. I chatted with him for about 30-40 minutes and finally asked to test drive.

He hesitated and walked over to his manager to tell him the 'situation'. He came back and said "we have to run your credit and fill out some paperwork before you can test drive". I gently reminded him I just wanted to go for a short test drive and didn't want my credit score ran since it can hurt your score. I also reminded him and his manager that no other car dealership ever asked for a credit check.

They ran me in circles telling me they don't even lease corvettes (which I showed them that swap-a-lease had plenty of leased corvettes), that they don't let people test drive the stingray since 'people don't need to test drive a vehicle like THIS!', and that it is protocol to run a credit check even though I called a hour before to confirm I could test drive with no hassle.

Now, I was 26 years old walking in there and they treated me like a kindergartener on his first day to school. How do they ever expect to change there tainted image and sell cars (sports cars especially) to young professionals with this type of service? I ended telling the manager his operation and sales team is a sham and unprofessionally deceiving. 1 week later after scoping out the rest of the cars I was interested in, I put my order in for my M4

The funny part is, the one 'reasonable' guy at the chevy dealer (a junior manger I think) walked me out to my car which he had to valet and told me my car was actually more fun to drive to the valet spot than the stingray. Kudos to honesty but where the hell did he valet my car if he had that much fun? haha

So my step-brother works at Reedmans Chevy - essentially one of the biggest car dealers in the country. I don't even think the problem is the age of the customer but just how many people come up with seriously messed up credit scores like 400-600 from all age groups. So I somewhat understand reaction.

At the same time you need to have a good experience when buying so Chevy needs to address this, particularly on the test drives. Honestly I'd probably show my credit score from my credit card - which isn't fully accurate but pretty damn good starting point. If they gave me a hard time still I'd leave.

That said people acting like the same thing doesn't happen at Lexus, BMW, Audi, and MB dealers are just plain nuts. I've had it happen all the time either a) because they thought at 29 I was too young (my S4 treatment at two dealers although the 3rd dealer was great and got a sale because of it) or b) because they are crappy sales people (ran into this left and right at lexus).

This is a problem with every brand out there for a variety of reasons. Its funny though if they see you drive up in a current Lexus, BMW, Audi - they sure as hell will help you. Versus if I come up in shorts and a tshirt - and they don't see my car, treat you very differnetly.

[Fahrvergnügen]

Originally Posted by Mike00

So my step-brother works at Reedmans Chevy - essentially one of the biggest car dealers in the country. I don't even think the problem is the age of the customer but just how many people come up with seriously messed up credit scores like 400-600 from all age groups. So I somewhat understand reaction.

At the same time you need to have a good experience when buying so Chevy needs to address this, particularly on the test drives. Honestly I'd probably show my credit score from my credit card - which isn't fully accurate but pretty damn good starting point. If they gave me a hard time still I'd leave.

That said people acting like the same thing doesn't happen at Lexus, BMW, Audi, and MB dealers are just plain nuts. I've had it happen all the time either a) because they thought at 29 I was too young (my S4 treatment at two dealers although the 3rd dealer was great and got a sale because of it) or b) because they are crappy sales people (ran into this left and right at lexus).

This is a problem with every brand out there for a variety of reasons. Its funny though if they see you drive up in a current Lexus, BMW, Audi - they sure as hell will help you. Versus if I come up in shorts and a tshirt - and they don't see my car, treat you very differnetly.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I wasn't trying to generalize the Chevy 'buying experience' with my rant but rather trying to just give some feedback on my experience.

The problem some dealerships have is that people generally don't buy cars on a regular / consistent basis so each and every customer is usually someone different for a 3-4 year time period (or more). This means they need to make a good impression on their potential customers or they will take their business somewhere else. I doubt many people will buy from a salesman that doesn't take them seriously.

While looking for a car last year, I was 26 years old and out of all the dealerships I stepped into (Porsche, BMW, Audi, Chevy, Nissan), only Chevy did not let me test drive the car I wanted. Oddly enough, Chevy was the only one that saw me pull up in my Z4. Maybe it is the way the salesmen are trained at Chevy or something but it's pretty ridiculous with my experience (I even called ahead and told them I was coming to test drive). Even now, whenever I wonder around the new car section at multiple BMW dealerships when my car is in service, there's always someone there that offers me a test drive or information about their selection.

As a side note about credit scores, a lot of students studying abroad from Asia/Europe/Middle East have low credit scores (or none at all) because they are not residents. Many young professionals looking to buy their first car are also in that same predicament. I've seen countless numbers of these two types of individuals buy BMW/Audi/MB/Porsche/etc., if Chevy really is using credit scores to screen out these customers, then they are losing a lot of good customers.

[TahoeM3]

Originally Posted by C62335i

I LUV my A8 Z06. It is a beast (bites if you not careful).

Looks great! Any problems so far?

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by ChicagoM4

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I wasn't trying to generalize the Chevy 'buying experience' with my rant but rather trying to just give some feedback on my experience.

The problem some dealerships have is that people generally don't buy cars on a regular / consistent basis so each and every customer is usually someone different for a 3-4 year time period (or more). This means they need to make a good impression on their potential customers or they will take their business somewhere else. I doubt many people will buy from a salesman that doesn't take them seriously.

While looking for a car last year, I was 26 years old and out of all the dealerships I stepped into (Porsche, BMW, Audi, Chevy, Nissan), only Chevy did not let me test drive the car I wanted. Oddly enough, Chevy was the only one that saw me pull up in my Z4. Maybe it is the way the salesmen are trained at Chevy or something but it's pretty ridiculous with my experience (I even called ahead and told them I was coming to test drive). Even now, whenever I wonder around the new car section at multiple BMW dealerships when my car is in service, there's always someone there that offers me a test drive or information about their selection.

As a side note about credit scores, a lot of students studying abroad from Asia/Europe/Middle East have low credit scores (or none at all) because they are not residents. Many young professionals looking to buy their first car are also in that same predicament. I've seen countless numbers of these two types of individuals buy BMW/Audi/MB/Porsche/etc., if Chevy really is using credit scores to screen out these customers, then they are losing a lot of good customers.

I certainly don't disagree with anything you've said either. I'm in sales, well B2B, but it's a profession and frankly I get highly offended by sales people who don't treat all their customers well. ON the flip side when I get home to visit family occasionally the stories my step brother have told me - 3-5 hours wiht people who end up with a 500 credit score and 5k upside down on a car - well I get that piece too.

At the end of the day it comes down to what I would tell my team at the office - you have to judge each situation and make the right call. Rarely is there a single answer for all clients or prospects. Really I think salesmen at dealerships need to be coached a bit more to ignore the clothing, the car a customer drives up in, and read the customer to see how serious they are. Frankly I've made a decision recently that my next car ( after my wedding next sept) will likely be an American v8. I've always had japenese or europeean cars and I'd love to have a v8 once before the EPA makes them disappear. As my lease on my gs350 is up November 2016, I'll likely grab a used car for 10-12k for the winter. Which means I'll be purchasing a Mustang GT Vert, GT350, Camaro or Covette coming from a not so nice car. Somehow I think it's going to be an interesting sales experience.

[RM7]

It's funny to see some of the perceptions out there. I just sold a mercedes C class from 2005 that I had. It was decent, but nothing special. I am selling a my camaro SS right now and you know, there aren't a whole lot of "interior issues" that make me think the germans are somehow far superior/above everything else. The mercedes had some pretty big ergonomics fails, like a cruise control stalk in the same general location and orientation as the turn signal (seriously, who does that?). But for fit/finish and other aspects, there's nothing about that car that seriously impressed me. My WRX was a little cheaper in terms of interior, but they all have lots of plastic and anyone who thinks differently really isn't looking at it, they are just fixated on their leather-wrapped wheel that you can get on pretty much any car. Now, I did ride in a 2002 GM the other day and that was not well sorted, like it was out of the 1980s and made out of all sorts of random parts, despite the car being in relatively great condition. My point is that the perceptions are mostly based on the past and many times have little to do with the actual car being tested. I can tell in many articles where a reviewer just doesn't want to admit that a certain car is any good, but you can tell by how and what they write that they are doing everything they can to justify the opposite of what their testing and preferences indicated.

The Z06 is great and many of the GM products are doing things that no one thought they could do 10 years ago, with the ATS-V, CTS-V, G8/SS, ZL1, Z28, 1LE, Stingray, etc. Sure, there'll be some hiccups as with any manufacturer, but even ford seems to be coming around now with much more track/sports orientated mustang models and the new GT.

Of course, I'm getting a 4 series, but mainly to condense my cars down to one that kind of "does it all" for a little while, rather than have multiple cars.

[C62335i]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

Looks great! Any problems so far?

The only problem is that I haven't got a chance to drive it as much as I like. There is so much crazy power that it can easily slip away from you.

[MasterC17]

Originally Posted by FC4

LOL...you obviously don't spend much time at track days if you think a GT3 Cup car from 10+ years ago is "fast", let alone faster than a C7Z.

I don't know if you were serious mentioning the KTM X-Bow, but I'll pretend you are joking. If you were serious, God help you. Just a hint...a stock Z06 from a generation ago is faster than one.

Hmm, apparently you do not spend a lot of time at track days if you think a 996 Cup Car is slow. Either that, or every 996 Cup Car you've driven with was driven by someone slow (would not surprise me). But those cars are incredibly fast when put in the right hands. I would argue the Cup cars are the best factory built race cars available to the public. I know for a fact that the 996 Cup is faster than a 360 Challenge, and 997 Cup is faster than a 430 Challenge. Porsche does an excellent job with them. And if you think you could outrun someone on a road circuit with a C7Z vs their 996 Cup Car you would be wrong. Plain and simple.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by MasterC17

Hmm, apparently you do not spend a lot of time at track days if you think a 996 Cup Car is slow. Either that, or every 996 Cup Car you've driven with was driven by someone slow (would not surprise me). But those cars are incredibly fast when put in the right hands. I would argue the Cup cars are the best factory built race cars available to the public. I know for a fact that the 996 Cup is faster than a 360 Challenge, and 997 Cup is faster than a 430 Challenge. Porsche does an excellent job with them. And if you think you could outrun someone on a road circuit with a C7Z vs their 996 Cup Car you would be wrong. Plain and simple.

Yea, I guess you're right.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Mike00

I certainly don't disagree with anything you've said either. I'm in sales, well B2B, but it's a profession and frankly I get highly offended by sales people who don't treat all their customers well. ON the flip side when I get home to visit family occasionally the stories my step brother have told me - 3-5 hours wiht people who end up with a 500 credit score and 5k upside down on a car - well I get that piece too.

At the end of the day it comes down to what I would tell my team at the office - you have to judge each situation and make the right call. Rarely is there a single answer for all clients or prospects. Really I think salesmen at dealerships need to be coached a bit more to ignore the clothing, the car a customer drives up in, and read the customer to see how serious they are. Frankly I've made a decision recently that my next car ( after my wedding next sept) will likely be an American v8. I've always had japenese or europeean cars and I'd love to have a v8 once before the EPA makes them disappear. As my lease on my gs350 is up November 2016, I'll likely grab a used car for 10-12k for the winter. Which means I'll be purchasing a Mustang GT Vert, GT350, Camaro or Covette coming from a not so nice car. Somehow I think it's going to be an interesting sales experience.

What you've said in your posts here in this thread really hits home for me. When I was in the market a couple of years ago, I stopped in to a Mercedes dealer. I wanted to check out an AMG CLA45. It was a compromise car with the wife. She wanted me to get a more practical car (read...be able to fit a baby seat) and I still wanted performance. I show up driving my 2006 Ford Focus ZX3. I'm also wearing sweats and a ball cap. I get assigned a salesman. He was nice to me. I mention I was in the market for the CLA45. He takes me out to sit in a CLA250 to make sure I can comfortably fit...I'm 6'5". We go back to his office and he says they have a white CLA45 coming in soon that I can test drive. I tell him I'll probably end up ordering because I only want options that are performance oriented. He tells me he will call me when the car arrives so I can test drive it. Fast forward a couple of days, I wasn't sure if I had to call him or he would call me to check on the delivery of the car as I was driving by the dealership that day for meetings. I leave messages and he doesn't call me back till later telling me the car hasn't arrived and he would call to let me know. I let a few days go by. I call him again and leave a message. Never heard back from him. I then go on the dealer's website and find that the white CLA45 was actually there. Ok I guess I didn't measure up to what he thinks a Mercedes buyer would be. A few weeks go by and I find the last black 135i in my area. I go out to dealer still in sweats with my wife. Wife changes her mind about having me get a 4 door sedan when she sees the 135i. Salesman tosses me the keys and leaves us alone for the test drive. It was the only part of the sales process that was right as the rest of the buying experience was a total headache but I digress.

Another similar situation like this happened to my wife and I almost a year prior when we were shopping around for a car for her. We checked out a used Volvo XC60, an X3 28i at CarMax, and a new X3 35i (which we couldn't test drive as both of us forgot our driver's licenses). We go into an Acura dealer. I'm also wearing sweats while my wife was dressed more nicely as she came from her office. We want to test drive a gen 2 RDX. We get hooked up with a salesman. He was nice when he greeted us. We told him what we were interested in. He gets their RDX demo car and we go out on a test drive. He sits in the rear passenger seat. Wife is driving and I'm riding shotgun. Wife asks some questions about the car. Salesman responds with very short answers. I glance back at him and he looks like he was bored and was totally disinterested in dealing with us. We get back. Wife says she likes the car. Salesman asks what do we want to do now. I told him we need to come back later to talk numbers as my wife has to go back to work (she was on her lunch break). He asks how are we looking to buy. I said I'm looking to put $20k down. When he heard that, his attitude immediately changed. He immediately was interested and realized we were serious....not screwing around with joy riding new cars. The rest of the sales process was very good. The salesman ended up redeeming himself.

It's funny you're looking to go with an American V8. I went from one to the 135i I have now. I had a 94 Z28.

[MasterC17]

Originally Posted by FC4

Yea, I guess you're right.

This is all of course assuming the person driving the Cup Car can actually drive it to its limits, which people who can are few and far between

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

What you've said in your posts here in this thread really hits home for me. When I was in the market a couple of years ago, I stopped in to a Mercedes dealer. I wanted to check out an AMG CLA45. It was a compromise car with the wife. She wanted me to get a more practical car (read...be able to fit a baby seat) and I still wanted performance. I show up driving my 2006 Ford Focus ZX3. I'm also wearing sweats and a ball cap. I get assigned a salesman. He was nice to me. I mention I was in the market for the CLA45. He takes me out to sit in a CLA250 to make sure I can comfortably fit...I'm 6'5". We go back to his office and he says they have a white CLA45 coming in soon that I can test drive. I tell him I'll probably end up ordering because I only want options that are performance oriented. He tells me he will call me when the car arrives so I can test drive it. Fast forward a couple of days, I wasn't sure if I had to call him or he would call me to check on the delivery of the car as I was driving by the dealership that day for meetings. I leave messages and he doesn't call me back till later telling me the car hasn't arrived and he would call to let me know. I let a few days go by. I call him again and leave a message. Never heard back from him. I then go on the dealer's website and find that the white CLA45 was actually there. Ok I guess I didn't measure up to what he thinks a Mercedes buyer would be. A few weeks go by and I find the last black 135i in my area. I go out to dealer still in sweats with my wife. Wife changes her mind about having me get a 4 door sedan when she sees the 135i. Salesman tosses me the keys and leaves us alone for the test drive. It was the only part of the sales process that was right as the rest of the buying experience was a total headache but I digress.

Another similar situation like this happened to my wife and I almost a year prior when we were shopping around for a car for her. We checked out a used Volvo XC60, an X3 28i at CarMax, and a new X3 35i (which we couldn't test drive as both of us forgot our driver's licenses). We go into an Acura dealer. I'm also wearing sweats while my wife was dressed more nicely as she came from her office. We want to test drive a gen 2 RDX. We get hooked up with a salesman. He was nice when he greeted us. We told him what we were interested in. He gets their RDX demo car and we go out on a test drive. He sits in the rear passenger seat. Wife is driving and I'm riding shotgun. Wife asks some questions about the car. Salesman responds with very short answers. I glance back at him and he looks like he was bored and was totally disinterested in dealing with us. We get back. Wife says she likes the car. Salesman asks what do we want to do now. I told him we need to come back later to talk numbers as my wife has to go back to work (she was on her lunch break). He asks how are we looking to buy. I said I'm looking to put $20k down. When he heard that, his attitude immediately changed. He immediately was interested and realized we were serious....not screwing around with joy riding new cars. The rest of the sales process was very good. The salesman ended up redeeming himself.

It's funny you're looking to go with an American V8. I went from one to the 135i I have now. I had a 94 Z28.

The problem is most sales people don't look at is as a profession. The fact of the matter is I've watch a lot of sales people in retail miss out on large deals because the person came in with sweats etc... I've seen it in low end brands and high end brands and it just comes down to the sales person failing miserably.

Now that said I'll still say something that mostp eople may like - the customer is not always right. The customer that thinks he is, is likely the customer I will pass by because they cost more to do business with then it's worth.

Anyway I run an Account Management team and I'll just say sales people are just like any other profession - some suck, most arej ust average, and some are incredible. Unfortunately it's more visible in that profession.

As to the V8. The thing is I'm 31 years old and I've never owned one. Outside of my 2000 Celica I had years ago, I've always had either a v6 or supercharged v6. N/A V8 engines as they are today look set to disappear thanks to the EPA. And I just want to make sure I own one, once in my life before they go.

Besides American cars have really killed it with the latest gen interiors - they are finally good enough for me to live with in my opinion.. I'd even consider a challenger srt8 at this point. Which is saying something considering how bad I used to hate Dodge.

[Slow128i]

Originally Posted by Mike00

The problem is most sales people don't look at is as a profession. The fact of the matter is I've watch a lot of sales people in retail miss out on large deals because the person came in with sweats etc... I've seen it in low end brands and high end brands and it just comes down to the sales person failing miserably.

Now that said I'll still say something that mostp eople may like - the customer is not always right. The customer that thinks he is, is likely the customer I will pass by because they cost more to do business with then it's worth.

Anyway I run an Account Management team and I'll just say sales people are just like any other profession - some suck, most arej ust average, and some are incredible. Unfortunately it's more visible in that profession.

As to the V8. The thing is I'm 31 years old and I've never owned one. Outside of my 2000 Celica I had years ago, I've always had either a v6 or supercharged v6. N/A V8 engines as they are today look set to disappear thanks to the EPA. And I just want to make sure I own one, once in my life before they go.

Besides American cars have really killed it with the latest gen interiors - they are finally good enough for me to live with in my opinion.. I'd even consider a challenger srt8 at this point. Which is saying something considering how bad I used to hate Dodge.

Agreed, most salesman do not take their jobs seriously. 2 weeks ago I walked into a BMW dealer in Ontario, i was dressed in expensive clothing and came in my 128i, i was meeting my uncle. I came 1 hour early and i am young i understand but dressed very well groomed just as well. 1 hour passes by and not one sales man even acknowledges my interest in car NOTHING. My uncle comes in his 550i and they are on him like flys on shit... Well in front of all the vultures he asks which one came to help me out while i was waiting.... Not one did. We walked out and went to another dealer, which the salesman ended up getting 2 sales from my uncle.

So what i dont understand is, if your at work and there are people there why waste your time on cheap iphone games or staring blankly into a wall when you can possibly make a sale.

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by Slow128

So what i dont understand is, if your at work and there are people there why waste your time on cheap iphone games or staring blankly into a wall when you can possibly make a sale.

Honestly thats what I don't understand either. It's one thing if it's a saturday and you have tons of people coming in and out and you decide to move past a customer with a 500 credit score taking up 3-4 hours of time (it happens). It's something else netirely in the scenario you described.

Big thing is all brands have it however. I don't trust brands or dealers at the end of the day. I do however trust people. You just have to earn it.

[Slow128i]

Originally Posted by Mike00

Honestly thats what I don't understand either. It's one thing if it's a saturday and you have tons of people coming in and out and you decide to move past a customer with a 500 credit score taking up 3-4 hours of time (it happens). It's something else netirely in the scenario you described.

Big thing is all brands have it however. I don't trust brands or dealers at the end of the day. I do however trust people. You just have to earn it.

I agree with with the trust in people... But my deal is why sit around while at work, especially while you work on commission. Say hi talk to people give everyone a pleasant experience at your place of employment especially higher end dealers. Sure sometimes you can loose time on 500 credit score people, but what happens when they talk about this experience to their friends who have better credit scores or once/if they get their finances in order. Point being is your at work better to make connections and interact with all types of people who walk in than wasting your time playing Game of War with Kate Upton..... And for the most part if your into sales, especially car sales in again a higher end dealer you should be able to spot the joy riders and the not so serious buyers but that does not mean treat em like shit because you never know, and you've got everything to lose being a dick and nothing to lose being nice, bar you time but that comes with the job. Of course time will be wasted but it is so sitting around not doing a thing. Point being my family know buys from #1 salesman in ontario for BMW theres a reason because he treats every family member with respect from the start, unknowingly to him we were all family.