[BMW F22]

Not surprised. Been a BMW fan for almost 30 years, been driving them for 13, and I'm now looking at Mercedes and Audi for my next vehicle. First the lower saving for ED, then the maintenance, the crappy cars they are making (except for 2ers, even M3/M4 aren't that great), no incentives, high interest rates, competitors making strides with their lineup, etc. Hate to say it but I don't see the appeal of BMW anymore.

Toying with the idea of the new 5er for business use but would much rather get the E-class. Coworker was looking for a new car and was asking me about 3-series. I told him it's crap and that he should either look at Lexus or MB and Audi if it must be German. He ended up with an A4.

[scoleda]

Originally Posted by BMW F22

Not surprised. Been a BMW fan for almost 30 years, been driving them for 13, and I'm now looking at Mercedes and Audi for my next vehicle. First the lower saving for ED, then the maintenance, the crappy cars they are making (except for 2ers, even M3/M4 aren't that great), no incentives, high interest rates, competitors making strides with their lineup, etc. Hate to say it but I don't see the appeal of BMW anymore.

Toying with the idea of the new 5er for business use but would much rather get the E-class. Coworker was looking for a new car and was asking me about 3-series. I told him it's crap and that he should either look at Lexus or MB and Audi if it must be German. He ended up with an A4.

Then WHY are you on this board? Just because they arent giving away the product like last year doesn't mean anything. Easy to bring out the pickets when you are on a forum. Trust me, BMW is in control of their market. If you dont see the value in the product, there are plenty of other options for you.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ObsidianX

I wonder if the trend away from sedans and coupes is larger than BMW in the US market.

Though I don't have any data, I would not be surprised at all if overall passenger car sales in the US lost a couple of percentage points of market share to light trucks this year. The trend toward SUVs and other trucks is not new but it seems to be picking up even more steam, especially in luxury segments.

Originally Posted by trey100

Z4 sales are abysmal.

The Z4 is no longer in production. The units being sold now are just the last few in the supply chain. Presumably the sharp increase this month is the result of heavy incentives intended to clear final inventory.

[mkoesel]

And let me just say that MINI Clubman sales are shocking. It's a great vehicle in its new form, but I'd never have guessed it would become the best selling vehicle for the brand, especially this quickly. I doubt MINI predicted that either. The next generation Countryman will probably give it some new competition, but I don't think the two nor four door Cooper is going to keep pace again any time soon. It almost outsold those two combined this month, in fact.

[BMW F22]

Originally Posted by scoleda

Then WHY are you on this board? Just because they arent giving away the product like last year doesn't mean anything. Easy to bring out the pickets when you are on a forum. Trust me, BMW is in control of their market. If you dont see the value in the product, there are plenty of other options for you.

I'm here because I drive one of the few good cars they make? You're hilarious. I make a comment that I'm entitled to and you got your panties up in a bunch and suggest that I shouldn't be here? Lol

I highly doubt they are in control. Yes, let's make a billion products to hit every single customer and hope we do well. Sure, sell more crappy products, that's how American automakers got in trouble years ago.

[lux]

BMW better wake up. The sales numbers in the US have been sliding for quite some time. Hopefully the new 5er will help. Otherwise we need to wait for the next 3er and X5 to stimulate sales.

[bueller]

Originally Posted by BMW F22

I'm here because I drive one of the few good cars they make? You're hilarious. I make a comment that I'm entitled to and you got your panties up in a bunch and suggest that I shouldn't be here? Lol

I highly doubt they are in control. Yes, let's make a billion products to hit every single customer and hope we do well. Sure, sell more crappy products, that's how American automakers got in trouble years ago.

I could not agree more, so many niche products, and they are discontinuing their wagon. The only vehicle they make I have any interest in is the M2, and even that I would not trade my 1M for.

BMW is no longer selling wagons after the F31 because of lack of interest. They insist on selling 4 wheel drive auto only and it's not a surprise. I am up in the air on what to replace my F31 with when my lease is up, however it is doubtful it will be anything BMW as they have nothing I am interested in.

I have always loved BMWs and wish them the best, there have been droughts before. Hopefully I will revisit the brand in the future when they make something I am interested in! Hopefully I don't offend anyone with my post!

B.

[Matski]

Bimmerpost;

Complain that BMW's are too common & complain that they're not cheap enough.

Complain they offer too many niche products & complain that they don't offer low volume models.

[Laki021]

The most important thing, global sales are strongly up. This proves that they are doing a good job and know what they are doing.
Should they offer better incentives, even further increase the sales and then not be able to deliver all those cars due to production limitations, I don't think so.

[ObsidianX]

It will be interesting to see if the X3, X5 and X7 reverse this trend in North America as each get revamped or hit the market. Coming from a guy with both an E83 X3 and a E90 335i, I can understand the versatility of the SAV. There are plenty of outings where I'd prefer to use the X3 than the 335i due to cargo, weather, or destination roads.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by David70

Norway YTD?

The US YTD figures are very strong at 330k to this date if you use a wider view than the narrow scope of only looking at 2015 vs 2016.

Sales figures rose each year over the last 3-4 years and each was a new record including last year when they shoved a bunch of cars out the door into dealer loan car fleets the last two months of 2015 ..

I wouldn't be surprised to find that that they may still be on pace for second highest US sales ever...

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Though I don't have any data, I would not be surprised at all if overall passenger car sales in the US lost a couple of percentage points of market share to light trucks this year.

Don't usually reply to my own posts, but here's some data:

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html

Trucks up 7% on the year, cars down 8.4%. That's remarkable.

And looking at the bar graph, as recently as December of 2014 cars and trucks were still trending relatively even. But look at the graph for this past month (and this whole year for that matter). Trucks are surging way ahead now.

People talk about the death of the gasoline engine and the manual transmission, but perhaps more alarming is the the death of the car itself. At this rate, in the not-so-distant future, passenger cars themselves will be specialty items, along the lines of what two-door sports cars are today. Sure, we are headed toward a driverless world anyway, but even being a passenger in a sports sedan beats doing the same in an SUV.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Don't usually reply to my own posts, but here's some data:

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html

Trucks up 7% on the year, cars down 8.4%. That's remarkable.

And looking at the bar graph, as recently as December of 2014 cars and trucks were still trending relatively even. But look at graph for this past month (and this whole year for that matter). Trucks are surging way ahead now.

People talk about the death of the gasoline engine and the manual transmission, but perhaps more alarming is the the death of the car itself. At this rate, in the not-so-distant future, passenger cars themselves will be specialty items, along the lines of what two-door sports cars are today. Sure, we are headed toward a driverless world anyway, but even being a passenger in a sports sedan beats doing the same in an SUV.

A couple of anomalies in the stats and definitions:

- I would consider 'crossovers' and small SUVs as passenger cars, even though the government and industry do not. Furthermore, what these entities call 'light trucks' are often considered cars by most of the populace. Examples: the VW Golf and the Subaru Forester/Outback. The flip side of that is that some companies consider small SUVs as passenger cars, like BMW does with the X1.

- The passenger car won't disappear anytime soon. In fact, it will almost certainly enjoy a resurgence as alternative-fuel vehicles take hold, fuel prices climb upward (and they will), and 'self-driving' technology becomes mass viable and marketable. Exactly this happened during the recession and the near-$5-per-gallon fuel prices we in the U.S. dealt with at the beginning of the decade. Though the viability of larger alternative-fuel vehicles is growing, there are simply some types of consumer passenger vehicles that won't lend themselves to the alternative-fuel 'treatment' -- large pickups, for instance -- for quite a while, both economically and technologically.

There's no denying that in the U.S., truck-like vehicles are selling better. But it will be a somewhat temporary trend that fewer and fewer vehicle manufacturers will play in as the industry becomes more globalized, within which the U.S. market will become less and less important.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

A couple of anomalies in the stats and definitions:

- I would consider 'crossovers' and small SUVs as passenger cars, even though the government and industry do not. Furthermore, what these entities call 'light trucks' are often considered cars by most of the populace. Examples: the VW Golf and the Subaru Forester/Outback. The flip side of that is that some companies consider small SUVs as passenger cars, like BMW does with the X1.

- The passenger car won't disappear anytime soon. In fact, it will almost certainly enjoy a resurgence as alternative-fuel vehicles take hold, fuel prices climb upward (and they will), and 'self-driving' technology becomes mass viable and marketable. Exactly this happened during the recession and the near-$5-per-gallon fuel prices we in the U.S. dealt with at the beginning of the decade. Though the viability of larger alternative-fuel vehicles is growing, there are simply some types of consumer passenger vehicles that won't lend themselves to the alternative-fuel 'treatment' -- large pickups, for instance -- for quite a while, both economically and technologically.

There's no denying that in the U.S., truck-like vehicles are selling better. But it will be a somewhat temporary trend that fewer and fewer vehicle manufacturers will play in as the industry becomes more globalized, within which the U.S. market will become less and less important.

I agree with most of what you wrote except I see self driving technology being less of a reason for many to drive cars and instead move toward crossovers. I find the car more fun to drive and perform better (same price point and engine). Assuming the self driving car will drive like my grandmother I see less of a reason to care about how it performs and adequate acceleration and handling will be all the car will ever actually do.

Gas prices will hurt crossovers some but the true dollar amount won't significantly change what the BMW buyer pays.

The difference in fuel costs between a X3 sDrive 28i and a 328i XDrive is about $100 a year. Gas doubles and this goes to $200 a year and 5 years of ownership cost an extra $1000 in gas.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....36139&id=36650
Or the Cadillac XT5 and the ATS both with the same V-6 and the difference today is $100 a year. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....37271&id=37766

Based on 45% highway, 55% city driving, 15,000 annual miles and current fuel prices.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by David70

I agree with most of what you wrote except I see self driving technology being less of a reason for many to drive cars and instead move toward crossovers. I find the car more fun to drive and perform better (same price point and engine). Assuming the self driving car will drive like my grandmother I see less of a reason to care about how it performs and adequate acceleration and handling will be all the car will ever actually do.

Gas prices will hurt crossovers some but the true dollar amount won't significantly change what the BMW buyer pays.

The difference in fuel costs between a X3 sDrive 28i and a 328i XDrive is about $100 a year. Gas doubles and this goes to $200 a year and 5 years of ownership cost an extra $1000 in gas.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....36139&id=36650
Or the Cadillac XT5 and the ATS both with the same V-6 and the difference today is $100 a year. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....37271&id=37766

Great point about the (possibly) coming self-driving vehicle. It's certainly possible they'll trend bigger. I feel, however, that many who will have them won't see them as transportation for several; they'll see them as transportation for a few. What will be fascinating for a twisted soul like myself will be how much trust passengers other than the owner/operator will have in such a system. Will a mother trust it enough to ferry her kids around in it, for instance? That kind of question will make or break the technology in the eyes of the mass consumer, among others.

Efficiency and operating cost is as much about perception as actuality. That said, it's not like the average American will be driving a Chevy Bolt in a generation. Our vehicles will still be bigger than what those in most other countries drive. And therein lies the conundrum: America is not the global consumer trendsetter it once was, in the auto industry and otherwise. That trend will continue, too.

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

I just don't get it that they put the X1 into the passenger car category. i think all the X series need to be together as well as all the i series should be in their own category...

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

A couple of anomalies in the stats and definitions:

- I would consider 'crossovers' and small SUVs as passenger cars, even though the government and industry do not.

I'm most concerned with the vehicles' on road dynamics (and I think a preponderance of enthusiasts would feel similarly). So regardless of what you call it, a BMW SAV, for example, is not a suitable alternative to a BMW Series car for my purposes and tastes. And comparing the M products isn't necessarily an improvement.

Furthermore, what these entities call 'light trucks' are often considered cars by most of the populace. Examples: the VW Golf and the Subaru Forester/Outback.

I'm surprised if the Golf is considered a light truck by the government or any entity in the private sector. Is it? Maybe the new Alltrack I suppose, I believe Chrysler was able to lobby the EPA into putting the truck label on the old Magnum wagon, for example. Even still, the Golf in any form is a real stretch as a truck. Where did you see it as such?

The Forester driving experience is just like any other crossover, and an Outback isn't far off. I've spent some time in them and their competition lately - wife is in the market. That competition includes the aforementioned Alltrack BTW, and the contrast is quite night and day.

The flip side of that is that some companies consider small SUVs as passenger cars, like BMW does with the X1.

Right, so the game is played both ways. Seems to me that, unless we intend to go model by model and get the classification, at best we can say there may be a bias toward one or the other, but we don't know.

Now, in practice I do agree that automakers are most inclined to shoehorn everything they can into the truck bin due to favorable CAFE terms. But, there's a limit to what gets a pass. A three box (non pickup) isn't getting in, so the shenanigans only go so far. Though having said that, I do wonder about the Volvo S60 XC. Worth a look.

- The passenger car won't disappear anytime soon.

Maybe not. Neither may the ICE or MT for that matter - I'm just pointing out the trends. They needn't disappear to become, for practical purposes, niche.

In fact, it will almost certainly enjoy a resurgence as alternative-fuel vehicles take hold, fuel prices climb upward (and they will), and 'self-driving' technology becomes mass viable and marketable.

...

There's no denying that in the U.S., truck-like vehicles are selling better. But it will be a somewhat temporary trend that fewer and fewer vehicle manufacturers will play in as the industry becomes more globalized, within which the U.S. market will become less and less important.

I'm not so optimistic. In fact, I strongly believe self driving vehicles will evolve to be more crossover/SUV-like the further and further the font seat occupant's role is moved away from piloting and more toward being chauffeured. That is to say that I don't expect a reversal in the trend toward tall-ish, two-box vehicles.

Furthermore, more PHEV and EV crossovers are coming soon, and numbers will no-doubt rise quickly as compared to the passenger car counterparts.

[pbjjj]

Given that the competitors recently have brought the newly designed vehicles that are fresh and very appealing, Audi A4 and MB GLC are good examples, I think the decrease is expected. BMW's newer offerings, such as X1 and 7 series, saw increase in sales but not enough to make up for the loss of sales in BMW's bread-and-better 3 series. Majority of the buyers are not loyal to any brand, so it's expected they will go for the newest and more fresh vehicles. BMW's X3 actually did relatively well despite of its aging design as more buyers choosing cross-overs over passenger vehicles, so I am sure the new X3 will bring in much sales that BMW needs. The upcoming 5 series will also increase the sales figure for BMW.

I personally think BMW's new designs are better than previous couple generations. The new look is more upscale with stronger presence. I think overall all brands are building better cars as a result of stiff competition.

[rainfall]

I think they need some smaller-ish 4 door model. The F30 3 series is a great looking car, but it's too big and wide for the old school E90/E46 owners.

Being new to BMW's, I honestly almost wrote a check on an F30 328i, but I would have regretted. It's just too long for my taste.
I wish there was a 4-door model on a smaller RWD 6MT chassi