[nujabes24]

Originally Posted by ah3nyc

A few factors play into people leaving BMW.

1). Quality of products declined over last few generations of vehicles.
2). Cars are moving more to appease not only bmw drivers but "LUXURY" car drivers. Most Bmw's drive like a Lexus rather a BMW; the feeling has been lost.
3). Many BMW's are leased and the fact was you could've got a sweet deal with MSD, fleet, Euro delivery, driving events etc. BMW pulled almost all of those incentives away. Then they hiked all the rates on the vehicles. I'm not saying it wasn't the right or wrong thing to do. However before people spent less and got more. Now they spend more and get less.
4). Bmw took away maintenance program.
5). Loyalists will stay with BMW regardless if they do anything wrong. If we don't speak up and show them with our wallet that the products aren't what true Bmw enthusiasts want then the products will be more diluted with each generation.

I have spoken out about this multiple times to just get judged by die-hard nuts of BMW. I've been proud owner of over 12 BMW's since 2004; however the fact is I think my days are numbered. Bmw just does not care about its loyal customers. They are out hunting maximum profit per vehicle while making the cars worse to drive and more expensive. Being that I am not a marketing genius but do understand business. Bmw will pay the price as we see dearly every month with massive sale declines. How much longer can they sustain these increases? Who knows but come next year and the year after when 3 vehicles are up for lease; I will look elsewhere.

Great post, I agree with everything you said. I've been loyal to the M brand since I was 21 when I got my first M3. I'll see what they have to bring for the the new M4. I love bmw just want better quality especially from the M side.

[ZilberGrau ZHP]

Originally Posted by Laki021

What a bunch of rubbish in this topic...

Whoever is not satisfied with BMW is free to change the brand, good luck finding something better that does not cost 50% more... You will come back in a few years anyway... the grass is always greener on the other side...

It's funny when people criticize BMW for not being the "Ultimate driving machine" and in the same post stating that they are moving to Audi. Well, if pure driving pleasure is what you are looking for, you are at the wrong place, better get Sony PS4 it has more feedback than any Audi car... It's incredible how disconnected their steering is...

Virtual cockpit, who the hell needs virtual cockpit when you have the best HUD on the market? Completely pointless and redundant gadget. I'm very happy that BMW is sticking with the more traditional gauges.
Burmester? Why is that better than Bowers & Wilkins???

At the end, most of the problems people are complaining about here are simply called "Progress". They are stuck in the old days, when they were younger, everything felt better... I still have an E90 325i, and no, it is not a better drivers car than the G30 in any sense, not even close.

No Audis and BMWs on the street are simply not that much different anymore. BMW I will admit has the SLIGHTLY better power delivery and MAYBE better steering. But all these cars are now homogonized for sales- and if thats the case- i go with the one with the most tech and looks the coolest (subjective of course) and the latest generation of Audi design to me is just better than BMW- and the interiors where you spend your time in traffic jams goes straight to Audi and Merc. Oh and the 3 and 4 dont get Bowers and Wilkins- they get the very subpar HK system.

[BMW XI series]

Originally Posted by kadify

I spoke with my SA about not seeing many new 5s on the road and he said they're having an incredibly difficult time moving the new 5s and 7s. He said people are just buying the old F10s at major discount now but no new 5s.

i don't know where you live but where i live i see 5-10 new series everyday

[Laki021]

Originally Posted by ZilberGrau ZHP

No Audis and BMWs on the street are simply not that much different anymore. BMW I will admit has the SLIGHTLY better power delivery and MAYBE better steering. But all these cars are now homogonized for sales- and if thats the case- i go with the one with the most tech and looks the coolest (subjective of course) and the latest generation of Audi design to me is just better than BMW- and the interiors where you spend your time in traffic jams goes straight to Audi and Merc. Oh and the 3 and 4 dont get Bowers and Wilkins- they get the very subpar HK system.

Ever drove modern Audi? There is no MAYBE, Audi steering feels completely disconnected, whenever I tried it (A7, A6 and A4) I was left in a disbelief how bed it is. Whenever I drove Audi I was disappointed, A7 looks amazing, but once I drove it, naahhh.
Please do me a favor, go drive the new G30 and A6 or some other Audi back to back and come back to share your impressions.
Mercedes makes some brilliant cars, nothing wrong with that, but if driving pleasure is what you are looking for, no doubt you would enjoy a BMW more.
I tested all the mentioned cars, for me simply there is no dilemma, G30 is bar far the best in class. Sorry that I'm always insisting on the G30, but it is because it best represents the future cars of BMW. In the next 12-24 months we will get a bunch of new BMW models with similar interior, quality, driving behavior... F30 is just an old model, personally I have never been a big fan of it, but let's wait for G20 and then compare it to the brand new A4. The new X3 already has a huge waiting list, and no one has actually even seen the car in real before ordering it (btw I have seen it, and as I said it follows G30 philosophy, no doubt it's gonna be a huge success).
Design is a matter of personal taste, it is normal that some people prefer Audi, some Mercedes and some BMW. What is for sure amazing is that the new G30 manages to be THE MOST aerodynamic car in the world (Cd = 0.22) while still keeping its recognizable great look. Marvelous work of designers and engineers.
Back to the sound system, what is wrong with HK? Sorry but Merc and Audi are also not offering anything better in that class, they have a "cheap" Bang & Olufsen in Audi (~$1000) with plastic grills while in the Merc they offer only entry level Burmester (also $1000) that has nothing to do with the higher level one in eg. E class ($5000). So, I don't think there is anything wrong with HK, it sounds great and is on par with the other two systems.


Only here you can read about bad interior quality in the new BMWs, then I go and sit in my car (G30) and absolutely do not understand what people are talking about, it is magnificent. Lucky most of the people agree with me:

https://www.driving.co.uk/car-review...drive-touring/

You can read tons of reviews like this, it's always brilliant interior, high quality materials, etc, but not on this BMW forum.

Seriously, I don't get what some people are doing on this (BMW) forum, please go and discharge your negative energy somewhere else or just go to Audi forum and trash BMW as much as you like, I'm sure they would be happy to hear it (there they are probably trashing Audi, why it is not more like BMW ).

[DDD31]

Originally Posted by Laki021

Seriously, I don't get what some people are doing on this (BMW) forum, please go and discharge your negative energy somewhere else or just go to Audi forum and trash BMW as much as you like, I'm sure they would be happy to hear it (there they are probably trashing Audi, why it is not more like BMW ).

So we're not supposed to post negative comments about BMW and pretend everything is rainbows and unicorns with the direction BMW is headed??

Many of us are long time BMW owners (myself included) and are very dismayed with the direction that BMW is headed. I'm one of the biggest BMW fans around but I'm very disappointed with most of the current crop of BMWs being offered. Mostly bland uninspired designs with driving dynamics that at best are only slightly better than the competition combined with a perceived reduction in quality at higher prices are turning many loyalists away from the brand. In my opinion, BMW have always had sub-grade interiors compared to their main competitors but their driving dynamics were so far above and beyond that most of us didn't give two shits what the interior looked like (myself included). I hope BMW is listening to the customers that helped build the brand to what they are today and will return to offering cars with far superior driving dynamics but I unfortunately highly doubt it will happen.

[ZilberGrau ZHP]

Originally Posted by Laki021

Ever drove modern Audi? There is no MAYBE, Audi steering feels completely disconnected, whenever I tried it (A7, A6 and A4) I was left in a disbelief how bed it is. Whenever I drove Audi I was disappointed, A7 looks amazing, but once I drove it, naahhh.
Please do me a favor, go drive the new G30 and A6 or some other Audi back to back and come back to share your impressions.
Mercedes makes some brilliant cars, nothing wrong with that, but if driving pleasure is what you are looking for, no doubt you would enjoy a BMW more.
I tested all the mentioned cars, for me simply there is no dilemma, G30 is bar far the best in class. Sorry that I'm always insisting on the G30, but it is because it best represents the future cars of BMW. In the next 12-24 months we will get a bunch of new BMW models with similar interior, quality, driving behavior... F30 is just an old model, personally I have never been a big fan of it, but let's wait for G20 and then compare it to the brand new A4. The new X3 already has a huge waiting list, and no one has actually even seen the car in real before ordering it (btw I have seen it, and as I said it follows G30 philosophy, no doubt it's gonna be a huge success).
Design is a matter of personal taste, it is normal that some people prefer Audi, some Mercedes and some BMW. What is for sure amazing is that the new G30 manages to be THE MOST aerodynamic car in the world (Cd = 0.22) while still keeping its recognizable great look. Marvelous work of designers and engineers.
Back to the sound system, what is wrong with HK? Sorry but Merc and Audi are also not offering anything better in that class, they have a "cheap" Bang & Olufsen in Audi (~$1000) with plastic grills while in the Merc they offer only entry level Burmester (also $1000) that has nothing to do with the higher level one in eg. E class ($5000). So, I don't think there is anything wrong with HK, it sounds great and is on par with the other two systems.


Only here you can read about bad interior quality in the new BMWs, then I go and sit in my car (G30) and absolutely do not understand what people are talking about, it is magnificent. Lucky most of the people agree with me:

https://www.driving.co.uk/car-review...drive-touring/

You can read tons of reviews like this, it's always brilliant interior, high quality materials, etc, but not on this BMW forum.

Seriously, I don't get what some people are doing on this (BMW) forum, please go and discharge your negative energy somewhere else or just go to Audi forum and trash BMW as much as you like, I'm sure they would be happy to hear it (there they are probably trashing Audi, why it is not more like BMW ).

First of all I have driven BMWs for the past 13 years- 4 ea. ZHP E46 (So I do have a gold standard to compare too) and a Z4M for 3 years from 2007-2010- My wife currently has an M235 and had 2ea. E46 before that. I have a frame of reference that you probably dont have- just sayin... So its not my "negative energy" its just my opinion and facts based off of my 13 year experience of being a BMW lover. However, as THIS and PRETTY MUCH EVERY REVIEW and FORUM has pointed out- BMW has changed dramatically over the past 10 years- it is a VOLUME brand with some "Sport" thrown in on some models. The M2 is the Mac daddy- no doubt and an M2 GranCoupe that has been rumored would be the car of Choice for me - But it wont be here , if it ever will, for at least 2-3 years. So while the power delivery may be different- the RS3 IS the M3 of yesteryear- 4 doors, extreme power, looks terrific (if not E46 perfection) and has much better interior tech than any BMW. If the RS3 had a coupe version as well, even more sales would go to Audi.The handling of Audis has always come into question- but thats BS most drivers will never know the "disconnectedness" and dont kid yourself- BMWs (MOST AT LEAST) AREN'T MUCH BETTER. I have wallowed around in my 435GC and I am telling you it is a German Buick. The 2018s were supposed to have better stock suspensions and they NEED it.

Oh and the HK sound system doesn't suck- but it IS totally average on a ~70k car.

Strange too on BMW being a volume dealer (look at how many thousands of 320i's they crank out for the college girls and young couples) BUT THEY WONT INCREASE PRODUCTION of the M2- a bona fide monster hit. My wife went to trade her M235 in on a M2- 7 month wait time- that was February- havent even tried for a 2018 yet.. But why not increase the output on a car that, if in stock, would sell immediately?

And for the record, my BMWs have had VERY LITTLE service issues (other than the tire sensors go off prematurely on many BMWs with Runflats. (My brother has a 435 Coupe his are constantly on) but other than that- very few issues- so I am not on the "Bad quality" kick. But like it or not- BMW is at a low ebb at this point (in North America at least) in design, features and spec. And as such Merc and Audi are taking sales away every month.

[BimmerMat135]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

It's a trend in the US Market. Other premium manufacturers - Example Mercedes are down by around 11%. However BMW does expect next months sales to rise because of the recent Hurricance activity in the US. As no doubt does everybody.

Elsewhere its again the same story. Everyone else is up whilst the US is down.
However there is buoyancy with an all new US-Built X3 on the horizon with US pre-orders close to overtaking original F25 pre-orders.

Globally it is the new and relatively new products driving sales. Namely the BMWi models ,7er,X1,4erLCi and of course the all new 5er which has seen majority increase due to the arrival of the new Touring and China Li variant.

Heading to the IAA with some positive news especially in relation to all new products such as the X3,M5,6er GT and the refreshed i3 and i3S as well as conceptual previews of the Z4,8er and all new X7 utilising BMWs joint developed Fuel Cell technology. But also that BMW for the first half of 2017 is the Worlds most profitable manufacturer and that BMW are close to their initial projection of selling 100,000 units of EV and assisted models by 2018.

Towards the end of the year there are still premieres for the LA and Tokyo motor shows with the Tokyo debut being of considerable interest. And in 2018 more timely product in the guise of the next generation 3er, and X5 as well as the production X2,8er and Z4 and the gorgeous i8 Roadster and performance i8S.

Sorry Scott but you are lying, both Mercedes and Audi are on a rising trend in North America when BMW is losing sales. This show a total misunderstanding of North American buyers needs.

My E82 is far better built than my F31 the lack of quality of the new product is showing. Driving pleasure is now optional with BMW you need M-Sport pack, track handling pack etc to make your car "acceptable" pretty lame for a company which pretend to "share the driving pleasure". This seem to be the Porsche's way of doing thing but Porsche can get away with it as their products are top notch.

You got two new products that don't sale: 7 and 5 serie you went for quick money instead of keeping your consumer base. You lost your long term consumers by going soft and the one you gain are probably leased and theses customers are probably not coming back. I personally can't find where all my money went in my F31. The next 3 serie should be the follow up of the clar serie so it doesn't look good. Especially since you are killing body style. It really piss me off when I hear BMW engineer tell us that the customers want numb steering which customers are you talking about? It kind of the opposite of what we really want and what made BMW so special in the first place.

Mercedes was able to stick to their roots keeping luxury in the first place you try to chase them but you were unable to keep up. So now BMW is not the driver choice anymore and not the luxury choice either. I recently drove a 2011 C230 and it felt so much more solid than my 2014 328d. You can see where your money went in the Mercedes. This would be perfectly fine with me if I could say : "hey I don't care my BMW is so much better to drive" but it is not really a driver car.

My 2014 328d had brakes that couldn't even last 50000kms, a broken transfer case at 50000kms, many rattles and now rust where is the so call "luxury car feel"? Now I've got my second tires which is leaking air I'm not blaming BMW on that but still i never had this much problems with any other cars.

So maybe it time to step back and try to connect with your customers base before it's too late. You remind me of GMC in the early
2000´s.

In my case it's probably too late i don't see the value in my car anymore and it seem that you are not producing much value for customers anymore. On top of that you are telling me which car i need (BMW X3) when what i want is a touring probably a G21 in my case. So anyway it will probably be my last BMW.

[hufington]

Originally Posted by ah3nyc

A few factors play into people leaving BMW.

1). Quality of products declined over last few generations of vehicles.
2). Cars are moving more to appease not only bmw drivers but "LUXURY" car drivers. Most Bmw's drive like a Lexus rather a BMW; the feeling has been lost.
3). Many BMW's are leased and the fact was you could've got a sweet deal with MSD, fleet, Euro delivery, driving events etc. BMW pulled almost all of those incentives away. Then they hiked all the rates on the vehicles. I'm not saying it wasn't the right or wrong thing to do. However before people spent less and got more. Now they spend more and get less.
4). Bmw took away maintenance program.
5). Loyalists will stay with BMW regardless if they do anything wrong. If we don't speak up and show them with our wallet that the products aren't what true Bmw enthusiasts want then the products will be more diluted with each generation.

I have spoken out about this multiple times to just get judged by die-hard nuts of BMW. I've been proud owner of over 12 BMW's since 2004; however the fact is I think my days are numbered. Bmw just does not care about its loyal customers. They are out hunting maximum profit per vehicle while making the cars worse to drive and more expensive. Being that I am not a marketing genius but do understand business. Bmw will pay the price as we see dearly every month with massive sale declines. How much longer can they sustain these increases? Who knows but come next year and the year after when 3 vehicles are up for lease; I will look elsewhere.

I agree. My first BMW was an 89 E30 M3 and it was a phenomenal for its time. My wife's M3 does not feel anything like it unfortunately. Despite all technological advances, it feels like the car lost its soul while gaining power.

[SCOTT26]

Your salvation awaits...

[BimmerMat135]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Your salvation awaits...

This is what I want.

[kadify]

Originally Posted by BMW XI series

i don't know where you live but where i live i see 5-10 new series everyday

I guess it just depends on the area then. I live in Denver where it's not unusual to see wraiths and bentaygas driving around but I've honestly seen more f10s with new car temp tags in the past month than I've seen g30s in total.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by BimmerMat135

This is what I want.

If the i3 is too quirky for some. Then you might get the second generation...

[BimmerMat135]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

If the i3 is too quirky for some. Then you might get the second generation...

This look much better are we still talking about Plastic/carbon fiber body combination like the first generation? Battery capacity expectation in kw/h? About when you are planning this next generation to arrive?

[Laki021]

This looks really really good!!!

[firedown31]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

If the i3 is too quirky for some. Then you might get the second generation...

Looks like a golf, but a million times better than the current turd BMW offers. Now hopefully it has the range to compete.

[c63er]

That is a much better direction but making a bmw version of the ford c max does not seem to be an ideal solution either.

Create an e46 or even e36 with electric power and watch both money and fans flow in. Not a c max, city car, or whatever other crap your hipster focus groups are steering you incorrectly with. A usable small sedan with electric power and mainstream appeal and its game set match. But bmw marketing doesn't ever seem to grasp the obvious. Tesla is already there although bmw could certainly do it better from a packaging and styling standpoint.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by BimmerMat135

This look much better are we still talking about Plastic/carbon fiber body combination like the first generation? Battery capacity expectation in kw/h? About when you are planning this next generation to arrive?

LOL! No. That is the second generation of 2er Active Tourer.
You never know BMW might introduce the 225e to the North American market to prolong sales especially since it is more conventional and family friendly compared to the i3.

[BimmerMat135]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

LOL! No. That is the second generation of 2er Active Tourer.
You never know BMW might introduce the 225e to the North American market to prolong sales especially since it is more conventional and family friendly compared to the i3.

Then why not try a G31 530e or a G21 330e instead. It would be much closer to BMW's roots than an active tourer.

[malicem3]

Love the small anecdotes based on pure opinion. We are talking 1 of 12 months of sales this year. It's bound to be an off year due to refreshes coming in the near term, weather in the US, and a forever-treading US economy.

[CeEl]

Am I the only one who is surprised that they sold almost 500 Z4's this year????

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by CeEl

Am I the only one who is surprised that they sold almost 500 Z4's this year????

Crazy right? It's been out of production for a year. I don't think they are in any hurry to clear them out since they knew the replacement would be two years away (still another year to go).

[firedown31]

Originally Posted by malicem3

Love the small anecdotes based on pure opinion. We are talking 1 of 12 months of sales this year. It's bound to be an off year due to refreshes coming in the near term, weather in the US, and a forever-treading US economy.

It's not opinion, it's a fact BMW sales have suffered this year. Yes 4 months up, and 4 months down. But the down months are a much larger drop over the up months and drag the overall YTD sales into the negative.


January http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...p+U.S.+Reports
up 0.1%
February http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...p+U.S.+Reports
up 0.3%
March http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...p+U.S.+Reports
up 3.3%
April http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...p+U.S.+Reports
down 9.3%
May http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...p+U.S.+Reports
down 11%
June http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...p+U.S.+Reports
up 0.4%
July http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...p+U.S.+Reports
down 14.8%
August http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...p+U.S.+Reports
down 7.7%



And 2017s numbers are only compared to 2016s. 2016 was down 9.5% over 2015 http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...p+U.S.+Reports
BMW sales have been going down for a while now. Are you going to blame "refreshes coming in the near term, weather in the US, and a forever-treading US economy" for 2016 too? And why aren't those affecting every brand out there? Audi has been up 80 months in a row!!! https://www.driveandride.com/us/audi...s-august-2017/