[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by e90335e36m3

Supposing I was able to overcome the circular reasoning and illogical faith-based arguments for God...how can so many people have gotten it wrong who earnestly believe Allah is their lord and savior? So many people going to hell simply by virtue of being born in the wrong part of the world. Doesn't seem fair to condemn these people to eternal suffering for something as uneventful as their short life on this Earth, especially by a God who is good.
Wait, I can't overcome it after all. Would happily take you up on PM discussions. I've been married to a devoutly Christian woman for 10 years, have gone to different churches, read the Bible, tried to keep an open mind, but after all this time, I am still agnostic. I don't know if God exists or does not, but cannot go either way with absolute certainty.

Is God only good? Is that his only attribute? Or, as the Bible says, is he also a just God? I too will happily discuss with you - please feel free to PM me with thoughts / challenges / questions and I'll do my best to answer, although keep in mind it is coming from me, a deeply flawed human, so take it with a grain of salt too. I'm far from perfect, as a result, my answers are similarly far from perfect unfortunately. But I can tell you why I believe what I do anyways. But will try not to do it here. PM me.

[unluky]

I can't believe a small group of people who pretend to believe the earth is not round - can get another group of people to argue the point.......for 10 pages.

=)

[Lady Jane]

Attachment 2728553

[Captain Blood]

Has this tweet been put on this thread?

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by e90335e36m3

Supposing I was able to overcome the circular reasoning and illogical faith-based arguments for God...how can so many people have gotten it wrong who earnestly believe Allah is their lord and savior? So many people going to hell simply by virtue of being born in the wrong part of the world. Doesn't seem fair to condemn these people to eternal suffering for something as uneventful as their short life on this Earth, especially by a God who is good.
Wait, I can't overcome it after all. Would happily take you up on PM discussions. I've been married to a devoutly Christian woman for 10 years, have gone to different churches, read the Bible, tried to keep an open mind, but after all this time, I am still agnostic. I don't know if God exists or does not, but cannot go either way with absolute certainty.

So you attack somebody who is Christian faith based. Since you don't know one way or the other on God, do you also attack atheists?

[Tuxedo]

oh Great, The Christian is here... evolved from a compared folks ignore reason and evidence for belief arguing vs folks argue from faith and reason for belief. add a dash of all the religious can't be right from the skeptic... where is that blow your brains out emoji carry on

[e90335e36m3]

Originally Posted by Captain Blood

So you attack somebody who is Christian faith based. Since you don't know one way or the other on God, do you also attack atheists?

I don't think I attack anyone, if I could figure this issue out for myself I think I'd be better off for it. Dealing in absolutes on this particular matter is not correct, since there's no way to validate the truth. I don't favor one side or the other, and think atheists are equally wrong in their absolutism. Likewise, I can see how my position is "the coward's way out" and that it's better to believe in something than to believe in nothing. Notwithstanding all of that, even if a higher power is real, I still don't understand how from the religious texts each major religion follows that they can, without a shadow of a doubt conclude that they are correct, when the others have established something completely opposite (in the sense that the others are condemned to hell for eternity).

[Noneya]

Originally Posted by e90335e36m3

I don't think I attack anyone, if I could figure this issue out for myself I think I'd be better off for it. Dealing in absolutes on this particular matter is not correct, since there's no way to validate the truth. I don't favor one side or the other, and think atheists are equally wrong in their absolutism. Likewise, I can see how my position is "the coward's way out" and that it's better to believe in something than to believe in nothing. Notwithstanding all of that, even if a higher power is real, I still don't understand how from the religious texts each major religion follows that they can, without a shadow of a doubt conclude that they are correct, when the others have established something completely opposite (in the sense that the others are condemned to hell for eternity).

Am I dealing in absolutes when I say that the Sun will rise tomorrow? Or if I say that there are no teapots orbiting the Sun?

[e90335e36m3]

Originally Posted by Noneya

Am I dealing in absolutes when I say that the Sun will rise tomorrow? Or if I say that there are no teapots orbiting the Sun?

I think you're missing the point. I've read the Bible, I've had my wife's parents who are church elders try to help me understand the existence of God, I've gone to more church (big and small, different denominations) than some Christians, I've tried prayer, I took classes at the University of St Thomas, talked to pastors and priests. I've sought God for over 12 years and in that time he's never revealed himself to me. Or maybe he did and I didn't register it as such. I can say in earnest I've done the work. For this same God to condemn me to hell for being a non believer seems a bit strange. But I can simply walk outside and see the sun.
If you have any ideas about what I can do to get an answer feel free to tell me, I am agnostic after all. But, have faith and believe wholesale is not an answer.

[e90335e36m3]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

That's the point about "faith". The context of "beyond a shadow of doubt" is immaterial to the position...

That's what I really struggle with given the work I've put into in the search for truth. Not sure what else I can do, but faith alone isn't enough.

[Noneya]

Originally Posted by e90335e36m3

I think you're missing the point. I've read the Bible, I've had my wife's parents who are church elders try to help me understand the existence of God, I've gone to more church (big and small, different denominations) than some Christians, I've tried prayer, I took classes at the University of St Thomas, talked to pastors and priests. I've sought God for over 12 years and in that time he's never revealed himself to me. Or maybe he did and I didn't register it as such. I can say in earnest I've done the work. For this same God to condemn me to hell for being a non believer seems a bit strange. But I can simply walk outside and see the sun.
If you have any ideas about what I can do to get an answer feel free to tell me, I am agnostic after all. But, have faith and believe wholesale is not an answer.

It's not particularly complicated. Step one is understanding what exactly constitutes a truth about the world around us for you. That's why I gave the two examples above - of the Earth spinning and the absence of Russel's teapots. This is a prerequisite for going any further. If you're in doubt about the answer to either of these questions, then you cannot come to certainty about deities.

[e90335e36m3]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The part you are struggling with is the "country club" part; meaning every religion believes they are the best country club to join. None of that matters; that is just a human construct to deal with a metaphysical subject.

No, I struggle with the fact that if I am to put my faith in something, it should be something that has fewer contradictions (e.g. theodicy). In any case, I'm open to having a non inflammatory discussion with anyone interested but don't want to derail this thread and it's original subject. Apologies if anyone was offended.

[Childish]

This is ridiculous, but I guess we're doing this hahaha

[Lady Jane]

Attachment 2729361

[BMWILUVU]

Has anyone found the edge of this flat earth yet?

[Wolf 335]

Originally Posted by BMWILUVU

Has anyone found the edge of this flat earth yet?

Apparently it is guarded by 'word military', and no one is allowed to come near it.

Also, apparently, this edge has thousands feet high ice walls or glaciers.

It's nearly impossible for anyone to reach it because "military" would stop you or kill you. And if somehow you managed to evade the "military", then you simply wouldn't be able to climb the ice walls and you would die.

[Lady Jane]

Attachment 2729570

[upstatedoc]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

Attachment 2729570

That's not nice to pin this on TKDbilly

[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by upstatedoc

That's not nice to pin this on TKDbilly

Definitely not. TKDbilly is a gentleman and a connoisseur of fine watches. Although it is sometimes difficult to see them hiding in his hairy arms. hi hi...

[UncleWede]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

Definitely not. TKDbilly is a gentleman and a connoisseur of fine watches. Although it is sometimes difficult to see them hiding in his hairy arms. hi hi...

Are said watches FLAT????

[BMWILUVU]

Originally Posted by Wolf 335

Apparently it is guarded by 'word military', and no one is allowed to come near it.

Also, apparently, this edge has thousands feet high ice walls or glaciers.

It's nearly impossible for anyone to reach it because "military" would stop you or kill you. And if somehow you managed to evade the "military", the you simply wouldn't be able to climb the ice walls and you would die.

Oh my.

[EezyBeezy]

What's beyond the ice walls..