Are Manual Transmission BMWs Really a Dying Breed?

WAGGIN · 03-13-2014, 01:22 AM

One of the things that I like about the new Porsche PDK in the 911 Carrera GT3 is the ability to engage neutral by pulling both paddles at once. It's awesome in the way that you can get more control over the way it drives by dropping in neutral and re-engaging in the way of a clutch drop.

If BMW DCT's start doing this (correct me if they do already), that'd be awesome. Still hoping to pick up a 2-series in MT in the near future, but as the DCTs improve in feel and control, I could be content.

Side note: picked up a E36 318ti 5MT Sport today for a daily driver. It's a different kind of fun.

pkimM3r · 03-13-2014, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ezmaass

Manual transmissions are doomed. It's a technology of yesteryear. For technology to live on, it typically needs to have some tangible benefit aside from nostalgia. When modern automatics are faster, more efficient, and more effective at their goal, it's a hard argument to keep manuals around.

Yes, it's engaging to drive a manual - you're working harder to drive the car, and hence that feels somehow psychologically more engaging. But try convincing a Formula 1 driver that paddles can't be engaging, fun, or useful. Taking a hand off the wheel to shift gears seems all but primitive today... and at great speed, downright dangerous. Is it no surprise then that you can't buy a Ferrari today with a manual either?

This article makes it sound as if BMW stands alone - they don't. Many of the world's leading brands have kept manuals around for the die-hard fans, but that fan-base is shrinking. Most drivers in their 20's and 30's today haven't even driven a manual. And that statistic will continue to be emphasized as time goes on. No different than generations growing up today who don't know a rotary telephone or crank windows!

Some people just don't like change. Taking away their ability to row gears may be akin to chopping off a leg... driving won't be "natural" to them any longer. But that's life. How many times throughout history have we heard arguments in the auto industry about obsolete technology and why things just won't ever be the same any longer? Too many to count. Granted, the MT is a staple of sports cars, but the stats in orders don't lie... even with the M3, the majority of orders were for DCTs.

I won't mourn the death of the MT. It'll have its place in our automotive history, but I'd much prefer a more effective, faster, and efficient technology that carries the industry forward versus looking backwards at how things were. For some that'll be harder to give up.

F1 drivers have two clutch paddles along with two shift paddles on the steering wheel. They need top precalibrate the clutch before launching. They also need to operate the clutch whenever they are accelerating from a stop. So there is still clutch operation albeit from a wheel.

pkimM3r · 03-13-2014, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WAGGIN

One of the things that I like about the new Porsche PDK in the 911 Carrera GT3 is the ability to engage neutral by pulling both paddles at once. It's awesome in the way that you can get more control over the way it drives by dropping in neutral and re-engaging in the way of a clutch drop.

If BMW DCT's start doing this (correct me if they do already), that'd be awesome. Still hoping to pick up a 2-series in MT in the near future, but as the DCTs improve in feel and control, I could be content.

Side note: picked up a E36 318ti 5MT Sport today for a daily driver. It's a different kind of fun.

Yea i wish MDCT would do this as well. More control. Lambos and ferraris have always done this. The new gt3 does this.

Sometimes you gotta rev in neutral while rolling to entice races!!

But in seriousness it will give that much more control for every situation.

C230AMG · 03-13-2014, 07:03 AM

The MT is going out like non-digital cameras. I agree with previous posts, the MT is very engaging, fun to drive on open roads but not in traffic. The semi-automatic gearboxes that trickled down from F1 has finally been almost perfected to the point that it can replace a wet clutch automatic slushboxes too. These gearboxes shift faster than a human could and its here to stay. As for auto manufacturers to offer MT, its becoming a cost issue and it will come into play when its no longer viable to offer it when sales of MT dwindle and costs more to offer it.

DerDichter · 03-13-2014, 07:55 AM

Guilty as charged. I custom ordered my car early last year and I ended up with the ZF8. It was the most difficult option to choose in my car. I've always liked MT's over Automatics but then I also enjoy the benefits (laziness?) of having an Auto for most of my city heavy traffic driving.

Had the option been a 6-Speed Auto vs 6-Speed MT I would've gone MT all the way, but having 8 speeds, with a nice manual mode to be used with the stick or the paddles behind the wheel made it tougher to decide.

Before my 328 I had a 120 (5-Door) which I bought used and Auto cuz I wasn't able to find one with MT. But it was not all bad, the manual mode worked really nice, it's still fun to drive on a curvy road.

So I got it with the ZF8 and don't regret it. I also have a Z3 with MT that there was no way I could've get it automatic. (Also bought it used). The Automatic transmissions have came a long way in the past 10 years or so from being purely a laziness or lack of skill aid to provide new ways to have fun. This my humble opinion.

monkawekrue · 03-15-2014, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThreeThirtyFiveI

Cut my left leg off first!

WilliCO · 03-15-2014, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerDichter

So I got it with the ZF8 and don't regret it. I also have a Z3 with MT that there was no way I could've get it automatic. (Also bought it used). The Automatic transmissions have came a long way in the past 10 years or so from being purely a laziness or lack of skill aid to provide new ways to have fun. This my humble opinion.

Truly, the ZF8 is so good that is calls into question the purpose of a manual for many of us who would probably have chosen a manual in the past.

4er_Meister · 03-15-2014, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skypx

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3er_Albtraum

YES! DCT all the way!!!

+1 voted with my wallet!

Lol

pinoye90 · 03-16-2014, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BJCO23

It took me 6 months to find my 335i E90 manual as CPO but had to go to northern California and endes up with a new one. I'm now selling it and there seems to only be a few peeps looking for 6Spd manual with 4 doors. Shame on the market!

Great car manual trans. all the way from first car to last. If I had the funds I would come buy your 335 but I just purchased a house!! Currently driving e90 6spd zhp n52 non turbo, considering turbo next, maybe

hyperboost · 03-18-2014, 01:36 PM

manual is on the way out... but the next M3/4 do have manual tranny

ZeD4Mr · 03-18-2014, 02:37 PM

manuals are more fun, DCT is faster. Some drivers/owners love being engaged, some just want to get it done. It's like doing it yourself or pay someone to get it done. It's result vs process.

I agree that manual is not the norm in N. America and it's on its way out. Get last ones you can, maintain it and keep it. I'll keep my Z4M and buy DCT in the future. There is always going to be a manual trans in the family for those fun and engaging drives.

jradams76 · 03-20-2014, 11:54 AM

I agree manuals are more fun to drive but its getting so hard to find them. Strange that in Europe most of the cars are still manual while the ones in the US are almost all automatics.

135iRick · 03-20-2014, 04:52 PM

I can't believe I read this whole thread...

BMW269 · 03-20-2014, 07:43 PM

JimM6GC · 03-23-2014, 02:45 AM

Well, my own recent experience is that the dealers themselves are part of the problem.

This past week my wife and I drove to L.A. for a business/pleasure trip. One goal on the pleasure side was to order a new M6 GC with a manual transmission. One dealer's website indicated that they had a couple manual transmission M6's in stock. When we got there, we learned (as others have said) that some dealers refer to DCT's as manual transmissions. When I told the salesman that I wanted a stickshift-type manual, he started dissing them. According to him, the high-HP BMW stickshift cars are really difficult to shift properly outside of a narrow RPM band and are really meant for the track. I've never had a problem shifting a manual before, including my former Z06 Corvette, so I don't know what he was getting at. Perhaps he was hoping that I would get discouraged and buy one of the DCT M6's on the lot. Two other So Cal dealers (one of whom advertises his dealership in his posts on this board) didn't take us seriously at all. I don't know if they thought we were just a couple of strokers. If so, they judged incorrectly.

So up to No Cal we go. The first dealer there told us you can't get a manual transmission in an M6, whereupon I told him to check the configurator on the BMWUSA web site. He didn't seem inclined to do so, so we just walked out. The second dealer we went to simply pulled out the order guide, and we placed our order. So it took five dealers along the length of California before we could order the freakin' car.

RicardoSwe · 03-24-2014, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpinweiss 335i

It is assuring to know that the take-rate of manual transmissions over the past 25 years has been relatively unchanged in the 3 series, if we are to take the author for his word.

Actually, the article says the *number* of MTs is the same, not the percentage sold. I assume many more cars are sold now, so the percentage of MTs has been falling falling falling.

Very sad state of affairs.

I also expect big brother gov't regs will force out the MT.

psykick5 · 03-25-2014, 07:03 PM

With manuals disappearing in new cars it looks like I'll be keeping my E34 540 6 speed for a LONG time. I've never owned anything but a manual, and hopefully I won't in the future. I'll buy a self-driving car, but never an automatic. Either I'm rowing gears myself or I'm not driving the car.

03-13-2014, 01:22 AM	#199
WAGGIN New Member 2 Rep 28 Posts Drives: 2020 330i, 2016 228i Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Dublin, CA iTrader: (0)	One of the things that I like about the new Porsche PDK in the 911 Carrera GT3 is the ability to engage neutral by pulling both paddles at once. It's awesome in the way that you can get more control over the way it drives by dropping in neutral and re-engaging in the way of a clutch drop. If BMW DCT's start doing this (correct me if they do already), that'd be awesome. Still hoping to pick up a 2-series in MT in the near future, but as the DCTs improve in feel and control, I could be content. Side note: picked up a E36 318ti 5MT Sport today for a daily driver. It's a different kind of fun. __________________ --
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03-13-2014, 07:03 AM	#202
C230AMG First Lieutenant 11 Rep 316 Posts Drives: 2011 335i Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New York iTrader: (1)	The MT is going out like non-digital cameras. I agree with previous posts, the MT is very engaging, fun to drive on open roads but not in traffic. The semi-automatic gearboxes that trickled down from F1 has finally been almost perfected to the point that it can replace a wet clutch automatic slushboxes too. These gearboxes shift faster than a human could and its here to stay. As for auto manufacturers to offer MT, its becoming a cost issue and it will come into play when its no longer viable to offer it when sales of MT dwindle and costs more to offer it.
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03-13-2014, 07:55 AM	#203
DerDichter Private 35 Rep 84 Posts Drives: F30 328iA MSport Estoril Blue Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: México iTrader: (0)	Guilty as charged. I custom ordered my car early last year and I ended up with the ZF8. It was the most difficult option to choose in my car. I've always liked MT's over Automatics but then I also enjoy the benefits (laziness?) of having an Auto for most of my city heavy traffic driving. Had the option been a 6-Speed Auto vs 6-Speed MT I would've gone MT all the way, but having 8 speeds, with a nice manual mode to be used with the stick or the paddles behind the wheel made it tougher to decide. Before my 328 I had a 120 (5-Door) which I bought used and Auto cuz I wasn't able to find one with MT. But it was not all bad, the manual mode worked really nice, it's still fun to drive on a curvy road. So I got it with the ZF8 and don't regret it. I also have a Z3 with MT that there was no way I could've get it automatic. (Also bought it used). The Automatic transmissions have came a long way in the past 10 years or so from being purely a laziness or lack of skill aid to provide new ways to have fun. This my humble opinion. __________________ Current: 2013 F30 328 M Sport Estorilblau II. W/Everything Except Heated Seats/Wheel; 1999 E36(7) Z3 2.3 Hellrot; 2015 Mini Cooper S 2-door Hatch; 2018 MB V Class Canvasite Blue; 2002 MB C200K Estate Silver Gone: 2013 MB GLK 350 Silver, 1997 E36 318ti Compact White; 2006 E87 120 Dynamic Titansilber; 2005 Seat Ibiza Yellow; 2001 Focus ZX3 Silver; 1993 Dodge Shadow Sport Red.
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03-18-2014, 01:36 PM	#208
hyperboost Captain 66 Rep 814 Posts Drives: M3 Boxster Corvette M5C Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Boston iTrader: (0)	manual is on the way out... but the next M3/4 do have manual tranny __________________ 21 M5C DD\|21 M550 xDrive\|05 E46M3 race car 6SPD\|2019 2LT Corvette GS 7SPD track car\|22 Tundra SR5 TRD Sport\|19 Q7 V6 & 22 Q7 2.0T\|20 G63\|19 Vantage 4.0TT\|22 Boxster 25 Year 6SPD sold\|08 Porsche Cayman 5SPD sold\|18 R8 RWS sold\|Many previous cars
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03-18-2014, 02:37 PM	#209
ZeD4Mr Lieutenant Colonel 517 Rep 1,548 Posts Drives: Skyer Z4MR Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada iTrader: (18)	manuals are more fun, DCT is faster. Some drivers/owners love being engaged, some just want to get it done. It's like doing it yourself or pay someone to get it done. It's result vs process. I agree that manual is not the norm in N. America and it's on its way out. Get last ones you can, maintain it and keep it. I'll keep my Z4M and buy DCT in the future. There is always going to be a manual trans in the family for those fun and engaging drives.
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03-20-2014, 11:54 AM	#210
jradams76 Registered 0 Rep 1 Posts Drives: 2008 328 Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Indianapolis iTrader: (0)	I agree manuals are more fun to drive but its getting so hard to find them. Strange that in Europe most of the cars are still manual while the ones in the US are almost all automatics.
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03-20-2014, 04:52 PM	#211
135iRick Private 15 Rep 53 Posts Drives: Black 2011 135i Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Atlanta iTrader: (0)	I can't believe I read this whole thread...
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03-20-2014, 07:43 PM	#212
BMW269 Brigadier General 451 Rep 3,888 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Germany iTrader: (0)
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03-23-2014, 02:45 AM	#213
JimM6GC Private First Class 29 Rep 180 Posts Drives: '15 M6 GC; '16 B6 Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Northern California iTrader: (0)	Well, my own recent experience is that the dealers themselves are part of the problem. This past week my wife and I drove to L.A. for a business/pleasure trip. One goal on the pleasure side was to order a new M6 GC with a manual transmission. One dealer's website indicated that they had a couple manual transmission M6's in stock. When we got there, we learned (as others have said) that some dealers refer to DCT's as manual transmissions. When I told the salesman that I wanted a stickshift-type manual, he started dissing them. According to him, the high-HP BMW stickshift cars are really difficult to shift properly outside of a narrow RPM band and are really meant for the track. I've never had a problem shifting a manual before, including my former Z06 Corvette, so I don't know what he was getting at. Perhaps he was hoping that I would get discouraged and buy one of the DCT M6's on the lot. Two other So Cal dealers (one of whom advertises his dealership in his posts on this board) didn't take us seriously at all. I don't know if they thought we were just a couple of strokers. If so, they judged incorrectly. So up to No Cal we go. The first dealer there told us you can't get a manual transmission in an M6, whereupon I told him to check the configurator on the BMWUSA web site. He didn't seem inclined to do so, so we just walked out. The second dealer we went to simply pulled out the order guide, and we placed our order. So it took five dealers along the length of California before we could order the freakin' car.
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03-25-2014, 07:03 PM	#215
psykick5 New Member 0 Rep 13 Posts Drives: E34 Join Date: May 2012 Location: United States iTrader: (0)	With manuals disappearing in new cars it looks like I'll be keeping my E34 540 6 speed for a LONG time. I've never owned anything but a manual, and hopefully I won't in the future. I'll buy a self-driving car, but never an automatic. Either I'm rowing gears myself or I'm not driving the car.
	Appreciate 0 Quote