[gbb357]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

Porsche has won a constructors (engine builder's) championship in F1. Nissan does through its parent company Renault and they too have won constructors championships.

Bugatti does (barely) compete but hasn't won anything. Lamborghini competed from 1988-1993. Aston Martin also competed in F1. These tiny specialty companies, however, are generally exempted from the large R&D budgets needed for F1, imho.

Care to try some others?

I thought you meant currently, but my point is your logic is flawed. You really believe that a car company has to compete and win in F1 to get respect. Building an engine for formula one is not really competing directly, IMO. Since you ask anyway, i just posted the 2007 Toyota F1, but i'm sure you'll say that it does'nt count.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by Kev

LOL..... I don't recall BMW or any team supplied by BMW ever winning the constructors Champion. This year, they won 2nd place after McL was DQ'ed from the championship, but they still lag behind Ferrari by over 100 PTS. Honda won before with McL. Does that make Honda > BMW? Your logic is flawed, man.....

Also, Nissan does their own R&D. It might be owned by the Renault group but it's still being ran by Japanese, not French. There aren't any active collaboration between the two racing divisions.

How much money for R&D is needed to win in F1? If Toyota pour in all their profits into their F1 dept, they will wipe out every one for sure, but is that economical? No...... They are a car manufacturer to make money. They have stock holders that they have to answer to....

Traditionally, Toyota has been very conservative in testing out new waters, so their F1 operation is still not up on par with the big boys. But hey, they've only been in this game for 5 years. However, don't forget that they were ones that made the F3 car for Ayrton Senna in 1983 for him to later become one of the best drivers of F1..... There are some brilliant minds in the company.

Give people credit when they deserve it. Don't bash because of brand. I know, so far, Lexus cars have been lacking soul. They're built for comfort and luxury, but everyone has to start somewhere. Give them some time before you make your harsh judgement. Even Mercedes and BMW did not start out as performance cars, both AMG and M were aftermarket tuners before they were acquired by the respective company to become their exclusive in house tuner.

1) Honda is far > BMW overall in motorsports. When Honda wants to, they win. Period. F1 and MotoGP.
2) I'm not a BMW fanboy and only support their products when they have the best product in their class. 335i = best. M6 = joke.
3) I was giving the LF-A support, I said the LF-A is sweet despite the fact that I don't generally like Toyota performance (trucks aside). And then I mentioned Toyota recently has started to make amends with their winning racing efforts at all levels except F1.
4) Yes Nissan and Renault both collaborate in multiple ways including racing technology. Here is but 1 example: http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/megane_trophy.asp

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by gbb357

I thought you meant currently, but my point is your logic is flawed. You really believe that a car company has to compete and win in F1 to get respect. Building an engine for formula one is not really competing directly, IMO. Since you ask anyway, i just posted the 2007 Toyota F1, but i'm sure you'll say that it does'nt count.

I'm saying to get respect with the hard core racing crowd, yes you have to race and win. I even pointed out that Toyota had done that, except for they have not yet conquered F1 and only recently even competed in F1, the ultimate expression of car technology. When they do that and the evidence of that trickles down to their sports cars, then they will be taken more seriously by the sports car crowd.

[footie]

Since when was Formula One regarded the best form of motorsport. I wouldn't class F1 the equal of the LeMans series in terms of mechanical achievement, one lasts for two hours at most while the other runs for twenty four hours.

If you agree with my logic then you will know that both Nissan and Toyota have competed very successfully in this form of motorsport, like wise BMW, Audi, Porsche, Ferrari ................ the list of brand names goes on and on. Formula One is a marketing tool and nothing more, sure it may have the best drivers but that is only because the drivers get paid the most money in this series, that's all.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by footie

Since when was Formula One regarded the best form of motorsport.

Since 1947. Do I really have to prove that statement?

"Formula One, abbreviated to F1, is the highest class of auto racing defined by the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA), motor sport's world governing body"

Since you seem to not know the basics, here's the wiki entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One

And a link to the FIA championships, note F1 at the top...

http://www.fia.com/sport/Championships/2007.html

Seriously, footie, did you not even do some basic research before posting this question?

[gbb357]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

I'm saying to get respect with the hard core racing crowd, yes you have to race and win. I even pointed out that Toyota had done that, except for they have not yet conquered F1 and only recently even competed in F1, the ultimate expression of car technology. When they do that and the evidence of that trickles down to their sports cars, then they will be taken more seriously by the sports car crowd.

Again, with that logic, if GM has not competed in F1 that means the Vette should'nt get any credit or respect or even GM as a whole company. You don't find this logic a bit ridiculous.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by gbb357

Again, with that logic, if GM has not competed in F1 that means the Vette should'nt get any credit or respect or even GM as a whole company. You don't find this logic a bit ridiculous.

Actually, GM through their acquisition of Lotus gave the Corvette the boost it needed from being an also ran to a true sports car with international prestige, if you are old enough you might remember the ZR-1. Here's a link:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...2/ai_n12558983

Without the ZR-1 as the genesis, there is no Corvette respect.

Lotus of course is an F1 legendary company.

BTW, other GM engines have also won F1...but since you mentioned the Vette...

And no, for the most part I DON'T respect GM sport cars (Vette excluded)

[gbb357]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

Actually, GM through their acquisition of Lotus gave the Corvette the boost it needed from being an also ran to a true sports car with international prestige, if you are old enough you might remember the ZR-1. Here's a link:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...2/ai_n12558983

Without the ZR-1 as the genesis, there is no Corvette respect.

Lotus of course is an F1 legendary company.

BTW, other GM engines have also won F1...but since you mentioned the Vette...

And no, for the most part I DON'T respect GM sport cars (Vette excluded)

Buying Lotus does not mean winning in F1 or competing directly in F1 and neither does having an engine built for F1 racing for another company. What is it really, just participating or somewhat involve in F1 or directly competing and winning in F1 that makes a car company's sports cars respectable?

[gbb357]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

Until they compete in and win F1, though, they can't be considered among the true performance manufacturers.

BTW, this quote of yours does not say anything about being respected in the "hard core racing crowd". What you're saying exactly is that the LF-A cannot be considered with any high performance manufacturers just because they have not competed and won in F1. Not in racing, but just with high performance manufacturers. Which brings me back to the Vette and for additional examples, how about the Viper, Koenigsegg, Saleen S7, Ascari, just to name a few. I know you're going to say low volume manufacturers don't count, but that's your opinion. As far as i'm concern you made a general statement without any exceptions to the/your rule, therefore everyone is included.

[89andy]

Whats this bullcrap about history and stuff with the GT-R. So what if Lexus doesn't really have any, its called history but you have to start somewhere to WRITE history in the first place.

[OverDrive]

Originally Posted by Kev

LOL..... I don't recall BMW or any team supplied by BMW ever winning the constructors Champion. This year, they won 2nd place after McL was DQ'ed from the championship, but they still lag behind Ferrari by over 100 PTS. Honda won before with McL. Does that make Honda > BMW? Your logic is flawed, man.....

Also, Nissan does their own R&D. It might be owned by the Renault group but it's still being ran by Japanese, not French. There aren't any active collaboration between the two racing divisions.

How much money for R&D is needed to win in F1? If Toyota pour in all their profits into their F1 dept, they will wipe out every one for sure, but is that economical? No...... They are a car manufacturer to make money. They have stock holders that they have to answer to....

Traditionally, Toyota has been very conservative in testing out new waters, so their F1 operation is still not up on par with the big boys. But hey, they've only been in this game for 5 years. However, don't forget that they were ones that made the F3 car for Ayrton Senna in 1983 for him to later become one of the best drivers of F1..... There are some brilliant minds in the company.

Give people credit when they deserve it. Don't bash because of brand. I know, so far, Lexus cars have been lacking soul. They're built for comfort and luxury, but everyone has to start somewhere. Give them some time before you make your harsh judgement. Even Mercedes and BMW did not start out as performance cars, both AMG and M were aftermarket tuners before they were acquired by the respective company to become their exclusive in house tuner.

I heard toyota was about to make a deal with schumacher (sorry if i spelled his name wrong) so he'd drive for them but he said he wanted to take a break for a year, so they didn't get him
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[gbb357]

Originally Posted by 89andy

Whats this bullcrap about history and stuff with the GT-R. So what if Lexus doesn't really have any, its called history but you have to start somewhere to WRITE history in the first place.

It's the same BS that i hear all the time, especially with the ISF or just Lexus in general. I just don't understand the hate, i don't see why not be a true car enthusiast and just give credit where credit is due. Everyone knows that BMW is way ahead of the game and has nothing to worry about. Like you said, you have to start somewhere. The M3 started in 86' and the rest is history and it's legendary reputation just keeps growing. Same goes with other iconic cars, whether it be the 911, Vette, or dare i mention the GTR. BTW, this is not directed at you sdiver68 just so you know or to anyone in particular.

[Ryan335]

Originally Posted by E90ice

Damn! That thing is ugly!

Thats what she said

[Robert]

Originally Posted by gbb357

It's the same BS that i hear all the time, especially with the ISF or just Lexus in general. I just don't understand the hate, i don't see why not be a true car enthusiast and just give credit where credit is due. Everyone knows that BMW is way ahead of the game and has nothing to worry about. Like you said, you have to start somewhere. The M3 started in 86' and the rest is history and it's legendary reputation just keeps growing. Same goes with other iconic cars, whether it be the 911, Vette, or dare i mention the GTR. BTW, this is not directed at you sdiver68 just so you know or to anyone in particular.

That's because not everyone is a car enthusiast. A lot bought it for the Bling and the performance is just icing for bragging rights. They don't watch MotoGP, Superbike, WRC or F1 because those shows conflict with Cribs and Laguna Hills.

[footie]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

Since 1947. Do I really have to prove that statement?

"Formula One, abbreviated to F1, is the highest class of auto racing defined by the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA), motor sport's world governing body"

Since you seem to not know the basics, here's the wiki entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One

And a link to the FIA championships, note F1 at the top...

http://www.fia.com/sport/Championships/2007.html

Seriously, footie, did you not even do some basic research before posting this question?

I personally don't agree with that, it all depends on whether endurance or short sprint racing is your thing. For me there is more technical and mechanical skill involved in endurance racing than there is in F1.

Also up until Mr Eccelstone and Max Mosley take charge of FIA and F1 I would have said the sport had a lot more credibility but the recent fiascos leave me in the belief that Ferrari is the one's calling the shots.

I would agree that in F1 the driver's skill plays a much bigger role than in endurance racing and that aerodynamics is an art that not all the F1 teams have mastered to same as the likes of Ferrari, McLaren and the other front runners.

Lets just say that we agree the differ on which is best and leave it at that.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by gbb357

It's the same BS that i hear all the time, especially with the ISF or just Lexus in general. I just don't understand the hate, i don't see why not be a true car enthusiast and just give credit where credit is due. Everyone knows that BMW is way ahead of the game and has nothing to worry about. Like you said, you have to start somewhere. The M3 started in 86' and the rest is history and it's legendary reputation just keeps growing. Same goes with other iconic cars, whether it be the 911, Vette, or dare i mention the GTR. BTW, this is not directed at you sdiver68 just so you know or to anyone in particular.

That's fair, we just have differing opinions. I prefer my cars (and motorcycles) with an established racing lineage. And just so you know even though your post was not directed at me, I was not hating on the IS-F nor LS-A, but can understand why Toyota is considered a newcomer.

I'm sure I'll have this discussion again in a few years with someone when Hyundai comes out with their super sedans and coupes.

[E90ice]

Originally Posted by Ryan335

Thats what she said

No, thats what your boyfriend said when he looked to you, ****** :finger:

[Ryan335]

Originally Posted by E90ice

No, thats what your boyfriend said when he looked to you, ****** :finger:

ummm... ok?

so much for making a joke.....

[OBI_agent]

Damn, lexus is getting into the super car business, it's high time BMW follow the act.

[lyndon_h]

The same lame arguments are raised whenever a newcomer performs well against a staple. "They dont have history. It doesnt have the badge. It doesnt have the feel". Who really cares. I dont buy things for the history. I purchase things for the now. I'm not going to get rid of my Samsung flatscreen for a Magnovox, because they used to be the best. I live in the now.

I dispise Toyota because they make boring cars. But anyone who thinks that Toyota doesnt have the ability to make a car faster a GT2 is wrong. Lexus's niche has been comfortable and reliable luxury cars. To say that they dont have the ability to create sporty cars is like saying that BMW doesnt have the ability to create comfortable cars.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Ryan335

ummm... ok?

so much for making a joke.....

Sucker. Should have known better.

[94JZA80]

Originally Posted by footie

Since when was Formula One regarded the best form of motorsport. I wouldn't class F1 the equal of the LeMans series in terms of mechanical achievement, one lasts for two hours at most while the other runs for twenty four hours.

your comparing apples to oranges. regardless, the mechanics of an F1 car, although designed to be as simple as possible, are still far more complicated than those of a LeMans series racer. and maybe an F1 car COULD race for hours on end if they weren't going FAR faster and revving FAR higher (with FAR smaller motors) than those seen in the LeMans series.

needless to say, claiming that F1 the best motorsports has to offer is still only an opinion. its kinda like soccer and football - soccer is a far more popular sport, but you'd never know it growing up here in the states - its all about football here. F1 is also popular worldwide, but here in the states, viewer ratings for NASCAR are much higher than they are for F1. but leaving the word "best" out of it (and thus without an opinion), one can't argue against the fact that F1 really is the fastest, most technologically advanced form of automotive racing on the planet.