[Manbnda]

I don't know what the sales figures and tendency of the new Cayman, 911, Jaguar F Type which are proper sport cars are, but it comes to my attention the cars listed in the article: TT, SLK and Z4.
Who want those cars anyway?

I wonder if BMW knows the importance and potential of the next M2. If BMW doesn't put a CFR on it, it will be pretty clear to me their lack of...

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by z19930612

Civic SI?

That's not a proper sports car...

And it looks like the unemployed designers from Saturn designed it.

The only thing good is the 6 spd tranny they robbed from the TSX.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Double Bubble

I give you Civic Type R

Yeah Europe only.

And that's a quasi sports car.

[puma1552]

Originally Posted by Manbnda

I don't know what the sales figures and tendency of the new Cayman, 911, Jaguar F Type which are proper sport cars, but it comes to my attention the cars listed in the article: TT, SLK and Z4.
Who want those cars anyway?

Seen the interior of the upcoming 2015 TT yet? It's one of the nicest interiors I've ever seen.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Manbnda

I don't know what the sales figures and tendency of the new Cayman, 911, Jaguar F Type which are proper sport cars, but it comes to my attention the cars listed in the article: TT, SLK and Z4.
Who want those cars anyway?

Yeah I think that's the biggest problem for the Z4 and BMW, they think that the TT and SLK should be their competition, so they design a soccer-mom oriented roadster and call it a sports car. Meanwhile the Boxster, in the same price bracket but a proper sports car, is selling twice as many units as the Z and last month 10x more than the TT. Boxster and Cayman together sold 4x more than the Z4. So, BMW, sports cars aren't dead, YOUR "sports cars" are dead. Moms aren't spending 50k+ on 2-seaters, but plenty of enthusiasts are.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by fcman

. So, BMW, sports cars aren't dead, YOUR "sports cars" are dead.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

No BMW, it is your so-called sports cars that aren't selling. No one wants your hard-top convertible sports cars for a reason.

Build a proper fixed roof affordable sports car and it will sell.

Cars like the Stingray are selling like gangbusters. Less expensive car like the next gen Miata is going to fly of the showroom floors.

BMW execs, ask yourself this question. Would you buy a Z4 for the same price as a Boxster or Cayman? Lets see a Z4 35is or a Boxster/Cayman S...yeah exactly.

I agree build proper sports cars that are more reasonable to own as weekend cars and the wealthy would pick them up. BMW is trying to build jack of all trades sports car for comfort and luxury that really make no one happy. Focused cars like frs Brz. Corvette are flying off shelves because they are high value focused cars. Status is now shown by the SUV but many would still want a fun, less expensive weekend car that BMW doesn't make. Look at every car BMW makes now. They all have the exact same SUV cockpit with comfort everything, nav idrive folding everything. The only difference is the weight. Not even interior space as new SUVs like X6 have the same or even less interior room than a sedan. I think the age where expensive sports car defines status is gone. There is a new frugality after the crash where luxury is masked by "utility". People can fee good about their rolling palace because they can say it's great for carrying kids and leather is not cool because it smells or feels good
But because it wipes clean easier. People even justify the x6 because it has an SUV label even though it weighs 5000 lbs and has no more room than a 5 series sedan 1000 lbs less. BMW is lost at the moment, they need focus. They need dr. Z back like Apple needed Steve jobs back when they were selling at $12 share. Many here defend everything BMW does but this does little to help BMW mature into its new physical size. They are following now more often than leading and when they lead it's often silly things like no dipsticks, forced run flats, fake sound and ever softer suspensions . Their claim to fame was great steering feel and that is a work in progress and while pretty good not sure they lead in that. I just drove new fwd gti. I don't like fwd! But at 25K it was a blast, fun, comfortable. At that price point anyone can own a big lux SUV and buy a Gti, Brz, firs as their runabout sports Car. I am rooting for BMW to make a
Comeback like apple did when they were lost!

[Red Bread]

I'd be curious what the trend looks like if you just add the Boxster into sales figures. Z3's were priced between the Miata and Boxster and made a little sense. The first Z4 was still priced well under the Boxster, but this last one tried to take on the massively better Porsche head on. Of course it hasn't sold well.

Get back to the Z3 roots and you'd likely find success again. And oh yeah, build us a reasonably small and light rwd sedan while you're at it.

[Qunadry]

This statement is nothing more than BMW justifying Grand Coupe's, 2 series active tourer, etc.. My next personal car will not be a new BMW.

[stealth.pilot]

I call bullshit. BMW just doesn't know how to build them.

Porsche and Jaguar are killing it in sports cars.

[W///]

Originally Posted by puma1552

Agree with all of the above, and most of the sentiment here. I remember when a Z4 was very nicely equipped for around $40k. Now it's $70k?? Sorry, but my middle/upper middle class income hasn't increased by 75% in the last decade, so forget the Z4. For comparison, my GT stickered for $42k. Had BMW offered me a nicely equipped Z4 with its retractable hardtop (for year round driving in the north) for $40k-$45k, it would've been a 50/50 shot between the two. But, I couldn't even consider the Z4 at the asinine price BMW wants for it.

We are now at the point of $80k+ M3s. A $100k 3 series is just a few years away, no joke. I mean seriously?

Agreed on the 328i - $50k-$60k for a basic 3 series is laughable too. Why do I have to pay $475 for a fucking split folding rear seat? Why hasn't this been de facto standard since the 1980s?

Problem is, everyone says BMW's pricing is a joke, but nobody votes with their wallets - they get right into another lease and BMW makes money hand over fist, year in, year out. Now all BMW offers is an extremely diluted market of severely overpriced vehicles. 15 years ago I never thought in a million years that BMW (and other Germans, BMW isn't the only one here) would be selling $50k+ 2015 vehicles with halogen headlights. But the market hasn't spoken loud enough, and people just keep buying them up.

They charge that much because they can. Plain and simple. If this wasn't working, they wouldn't keep beating last years sales number every single month.

It's not like it's a BMW thing only. Look at the German counterparts. Hell, I was building an Accord sedan online and that was nearly $30k. Have you seen what 4Runners go for nowadays? Crazy. Hell you just said your Mustang was $42k. What were base V8 Mustangs going for in 2004? Certainly not that.

I plan on buying 1 new car (just to be able to feel that experience of custom ordering my own M2 or M3) and then that's it. Makes so much more sense to buy used and not take a bath on cars nowadays.

[templarklimek]

I owned an last generation Z4M Coupe which I miss to this day. It was a pure sports car even with it quirks. I now own a E92 M3 and M6. I miss the purer Z4 badly but the current one does nothing for me at all. It's not a sports car at all, it's a touring 2 seater. That's fine, but if they want me to buy another it needs the following.

REAL hard top coupe
Manual tranny
REAL M version with M4 power

I see them sit on dealer lots for a VERY long time.. Take the hint BMW, stop selling this version and build a real Z4 again. This version of the Z4 has been dead in the water for 2 years.

[Luminor513]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

^^Well said! +1.

The Z4's biggest problem is the Porsche Cayman and new Vette. The Z4 is just far too pricey new. The smart person would buy a low miles one CPO and save a ton. BMW really should drop the Z4's price $10K to $15K, then the car might have a fighting chance for the next year or two until a new niche model comes out.

+1 exactly! Bmw should adjust the MSRP 10-15k and hope to squeeze out some reasonable sales on what's left in the life of the Z4. Dodge just did the same thing with the Viper MSRP as they are having a huge problem selling them and they are piling up on dodge dealership lots.

[onatuesday]

This statement by BMW really shows how out of touch BMW has become.

[BMWnStuff]

I would agree with the general sentiment here. The BMW 3-Series has always been one of the cars with the best value to car ratio. It's always a hell of a car. But at the point at which they can charge $40k for a basic 328i and still deliver it with halogens and a corolla brings projectors standard at less than half the price? Like really... If you want to build the jack of all trades, put money into the small things in a car that make the most difference.

The M235i was supposed to be BMW's jackpot getting into the kind of market with a cost-effective yet luxurious sports car, yet they turned it into a performance coupe instead of a sports car to sell more. Decisions like this can kill a brand.

[clbmw]

...yet we are seeing more HyperCars than ever? Something doesn't add up

[BMWnStuff]

Originally Posted by clbmw

...yet we are seeing more HyperCars than ever? Something doesn't add up

The 0.1% that can afford them are still out there.

[Manbnda]

Originally Posted by puma1552

Seen the interior of the upcoming 2015 TT yet? It's one of the nicest interiors I've ever seen.

Yes, I agree it's pretty sweet. And the engine is quite a strong 4 cyl.
Still, I would like a comparable RWD BMW...

[BMW GENIUS]

Originally Posted by fcman

I love roadsters (drove an S2000 for years) but I never even remember that BMW makes one. They are so outrageously expensive, a Boxster S is $3,000 less than a Z4 s-drive35is (what a stupid name)... Of course no one is going to buy the BMW.

Not to mention that between the Z4 and the Boxster/Cayman are moving in complete different directions. While the Z4 gets fatter, the Boxsters and Caymans have been cutting down on weight. I mean if I work for BMW and OWN an E85 Z4 myself, it says a lot when I admit that I believe that money is better spent on the Boxster and Cayman itself. Even if Porsche is infamous at raping your wallet between trim levels.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

This is a company with a 3 cylinder engine and fake engine sound in their flagship sports car... Proudly proclaiming that this is their vision of the "sports car of the future." If they keep on this path a continued downturn in their sports car sales should be expected.

[puma1552]

Originally Posted by W///

They charge that much because they can. Plain and simple. If this wasn't working, they wouldn't keep beating last years sales number every single month.

It's not like it's a BMW thing only. Look at the German counterparts. Hell, I was building an Accord sedan online and that was nearly $30k. Have you seen what 4Runners go for nowadays? Crazy. Hell you just said your Mustang was $42k. What were base V8 Mustangs going for in 2004? Certainly not that.

I plan on buying 1 new car (just to be able to feel that experience of custom ordering my own M2 or M3) and then that's it. Makes so much more sense to buy used and not take a bath on cars nowadays.

And that reinforces my whole point - people aren't voting with their wallets. I went to the Merc dealer a week ago to look at cars for the wife, they had an entire line of ML SUVs with halogens - about 25 of them in a row, not one with the lighting package. I mean really? In fact on the front page right under this story is another headline that says BMW Group sales were up 11.1% in October.

In fairness to the Mustang though, a base '14 GT stickers for like $31k, and can be had for $27k all day long. Mine's a premium with a lot of options. Though even at a sticker of $42k, let's admit the domestic MSRPs for non-limited production vehicles are a bit of a joke - I only paid $34.5k and it was a special order, got high book value on my trade as well.

I agree though, cars across the board - Hondas included - have increased in price at a ratio much greater than middle/upper middle class incomes, though I think the Germans have risen the most.

If nothing else, I'd like to see some of the more absurd/comical stuff come standard on $50k luxury cars in 2015 - things like xenons which have now been around since the late '90s (hard to believe it's been almost 20 years), split folding rear seats, etc. This is a place where BMW could just be a leader and say "We are going to be the first mainstream company to make Xenons standard across the range from here on out" at which point other manufacturers would follow, but as long as people keep buying the ugly, boring black no-line halogen premium cars off the lots, they have no reason to make any of these things standard. But they will instead take away your dipstick and stiff you with crummy run flats. People just aren't voting with their wallets, so it's kind of hard to blame BMW or any other auto maker.

At some point I expect Scott to stop in here and preach the company line that market research shows people want junk like the 2er Active Tourer. And maybe they do, but at least know the competition and your demographic when you think about making a ~300 hp car cost $70k in 2015 - those who can afford it don't want it, and those who want it want it for about $40k. Z4 or Stingray? Not a tough choice.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by templarklimek

I owned an last generation Z4M Coupe which I miss to this day. It was a pure sports car even with it quirks. I now own a E92 M3 and M6. I miss the purer Z4 badly but the current one does nothing for me at all. It's not a sports car at all, it's a touring 2 seater. That's fine, but if they want me to buy another it needs the following.

REAL hard top coupe
Manual tranny
REAL M version with M4 power

I see them sit on dealer lots for a VERY long time.. Take the hint BMW, stop selling this version and build a real Z4 again. This version of the Z4 has been dead in the water for 2 years.

I owned a Z4M Roadster for a few years before I sold it. I missed it so much, I just bought another one this past summer. I've owned 8 ///M cars, and the Z4M is my favorite car I've ever driven.