[gthal]

E36... my E36 track car was as fast as my M4... maybe faster... at most tracks. Weight was under 2,900lbs fully stripped so power doesn't matter as much. It was like a go-kart and HUGELY fun. I still regret selling it.

[Obioban]

I had an e36m with s50b32 track car and have tracked my e46 m3 many times (~10,000 miles). Even with my e36 at <2500 lbs (and 380+ NA hp), I still preferred tracking the e46 every time. I was only able to make myself track the e36 so I wouldn't crash the e46... but eventually I missed tracking the e46 too much and recently sold the e36. (I also tracked my e36 US spec a couple times, back when I had it)

The e46 has a better engine, better diff, less chassis failure points (e46 needs subframe mount reenforcment… e36 needs front shock towers, rear shock towers, front sway mounts, rear sway mounts, RTAB pockets, and the subframe itself on earlier e36’s), a better cooling system (e.g. it has an oil cooler (e36 doesn't), much better diff cooling, etc), doesn't have oil starvation issues, has a WAY better brake system (especially if you buy a post 2003 car-- porsche race car's routinely retrofit e46 braking electronics because it gives them a significant competitive advantage), more tire clearance, much stiffer chassis, has more useful gauges (e.g. oil temp and oil level, neither of which the e36has), better aftermarket support. SMG... I don't like it, but it IS effective on the track. Fixing the overheat issue is cheap/easy-- most people just tweak the sensor, and it seems to be without repercussion to do so.

The e36 just went into BMW's classic catalog, too, which means parts are going to have longer lead times and be more expensive. The e46 is still 7 years out on that.

The e46 is no harder to work on than the e36. Nor is the suspension geometry better. In fact, mechanically, they've very similar-- the e46 is very much a factory worked over/improved e36 throughout. Even dimensionally, it's really only wider than the e36. The majority of the weight increase comes from the wider body, the engine, and the 6 speed-- the only one of those that wouldn't be a worthwhile track upgrade for an e36 is the trans, and if you really care about the weight difference (25 lbs), the 5 speed can be swapped in with no modifications (though if you're going to street drive it at all, the 6 speed is way better for nhv than the 5 speed in the e36).

Mostly, though, the e46 just drives a lot more nicely on track.

No contest, imo... and I bet few people have more experience tracking both of them than me. The real benefit of the e36 is that it's cheaper, and that's not nearly as true as it used to be. You can get a beat e46m for under 10k now if you hunt, and if you're gutting the thing for track use, who cares.

[MaynardZed]

E36 hands down!

-cheaper car to get started
-more reliable motor (redline of 7000rpm vs 8600rpm)
-cheaper motor to replace if blows ($2K vs $4K)
-lighter, not even close. I have seen many 2400lb E36 and rarely see an E46 under 2700lb.
-the suspension geometry is about the same
-parts are a little cheaper
-If you start upgrading an E46 much, you're close to Corvette weight/power and will be competing against them
-very easy to work on
-SMG not available which would break anyway

Not bagging on the E46 because its a great car too:
-Prettier body (let's face it, the E36 is kind of ugly)
-Faster car to start
-great handling
-6MT available and can swap in a the lighter 5MT from the E36

Keep this in mind: if you get tired of the paltry US S52 (S50), you can always swap in an S54. (very easy to do, costs $8K total with engine) An S54 powered E36 will ALWAYS be faster than a comparably equipped E46 M3. The two fastest cars in my race car club are E36's:

Phil Buffington has an ultralight E36 with still uses an S52 engine with just bolt ons. He only has about 240whp, but his car only weighs about 2300lbs. Basically he just wears everyone else down and eventually passes them. Watch how the more powerful cars pull away on the straights but Phil catches up to them in every turn.

Greg Dalgarn owns his own highly respected indy BMW shop and also runs the E36 chassis in race group. He has a built S54 motor (reportedly cost $40K) in it and is wicked quick. Greg's just in front of Phil in the above video also.

My own race instructor/mechanic (Leroy Moore) loves the E36 chassis and claims the fastest car on track is an S54(or LS) powered E36. Basically is unbeatable. He made most of his fame and wins in an ultralight 150whp E30. Lighter weight trumps horsepower on a road course.
http://602flatout.com

Yes, I drive an E36 and love it. at only 218whp its a challenge to beat well driven higher horsepower cars. I play with Todd who has an S54 powered non-M E46. He beats me more often than not, but on this day I threw on a new set of tires and had his lunch:

Nothing is more gratifying than wearing out a Corvette guy in your 240hp car. This guys is actually a pretty good driver and he did a super sweet drift while passing me on the high speed left hander. Ultimately I wore him out in the turns and he had to let me go after about a lap or so.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

E36 hands down!

-cheaper car to get started
-more reliable motor (redline of 7000rpm vs 8600rpm)
-cheaper motor to replace if blows ($2K vs $4K)
-lighter, not even close. I have seen many 2400lb E36 and rarely see an E46 under 2700lb.
-the suspension geometry is about the same
-parts are a little cheaper
-If you start upgrading an E46 much, you're close to Corvette weight/power and will be competing against them
-very easy to work on
-SMG not available which would break anyway

Not bagging on the E46 because its a great car too:
-Prettier body (let's face it, the E36 is kind of ugly)
-Faster car to start
-great handling
-6MT available and can swap in a the lighter 5MT from the E36

Keep this in mind: if you get tired of the paltry US S52 (S50), you can always swap in an S54. (very easy to do, costs $8K total with engine) An S54 powered E36 will ALWAYS be faster than a comparably equipped E46 M3. The two fastest cars in my race car club are E36's:

Phil Buffington has an ultralight E36 with still uses an S52 engine with just bolt ons. He only has about 240whp, but his car only weighs about 2300lbs. Basically he just wears everyone else down and eventually passes them. Watch how the more powerful cars pull away on the straights but Phil catches up to them in every turn.

Greg Dalgarn owns his own highly respected indy BMW shop and also runs the E36 chassis in race group. He has a built S54 motor (reportedly cost $40K) in it and is wicked quick. Greg's just in front of Phil in the above video also.

My own race instructor/mechanic (Leroy Moore) loves the E36 chassis and claims the fastest car on track is an S54(or LS) powered E36. Basically is unbeatable. He made most of his fame and wins in an ultralight 150whp E30. Lighter weight trumps horsepower on a road course.


Yes, I drive an E36 and love it. at only 218whp its a challenge to beat well driven higher horsepower cars. I play with Todd who has an S54 powered non-M E46. He beats me more often than not, but on this day I threw on a new set of tires and had his lunch:

Nothing is more gratifying than wearing out a Corvette guy in your 240hp car. This guys is actually a pretty good driver and he did a super sweet drift while passing me on the high speed left hander. Ultimately I wore him out in the turns and he had to let me go after about a lap or so.

There's no reason the e46m can't be as light as an s54 powered e36m, if you're comparing gutted out cars. The chassis itself isn't significantly heavier. I also don't agree the swapped e36 will always be faster-- it can't fit nearly as much tire, the braking electronics are vastly inferior, the chassis is flexier.

The s54 redline is 8000rpm, not 8600 rpm. I don't believe the s54 to be any less reliable than the s50/s52. Both need tweaking to be truly bulletproof- the s52 needs oil pump nut and oil pan baffling, the S54 needs a vanos oil pump disk and loctite on the cam bolts ($150 in parts, btw).

If we're considering engine swaps a valid point of debate, the S62 is easy in the e46-- the cars use the same ecu and electronic subsystems, so it's electronically pretty plug and play. S62's are easy to get into the mid 500 hp range without touching the bottom end-- And the e46 can fit enough tire to actually make use of that, since the stock fenders can fit 285s on all 4 corners.

And if on track videos are being considered somehow meaningful (they shouldn't be, way to much driver factor, but since you're posting them engine swapped e36's), here's an s62 swapped e46m chasing down and passing a 918

Again, all from the perspective of someone who just sold a 2415 lb, 380 hp (engine swapped) e36 m3 race car.

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by Obioban

And if on track videos are being considered somehow meaningful (they shouldn't be, way to much driver factor, but since you're posting them engine swapped e36's), here's an s62 swapped e46m chasing down and passing a 918

Again, all from the perspective of someone who just sold a 2415 lb, 380 hp (engine swapped) e36 m3 race car.

FWIW, the first video is not a swapped E36, still S52 powered. Just showing OP how you do lose the group a bit on the straights but can catch back up to them on the turns. He's running 285 square though. Not much driver skill variance in the first few rows of W2W race qualifiers.

For sure, we're splitting hairs deciding between the two chassis. My suggestion for the OP is that considering the next logical progression after advanced DE is probably TT and maybe W2W after that, look at the group you would be competing in and build a car to a specific popular group. Nothing is worse that racing or competing against very few competitors. For example if you're running with NASA and TTB is more popular build an E46, if TTC is popular than build an E36.

[Alpine F31]

Originally Posted by davis449

The SMG (I or II, doesn't matter) is NEVER a plus, [anyway]. That needs to be taken out of the Pros column for the e46 altogether.

My thought exactly.

I have considered an older M3 as a dedicated track car too. I would take an E36 or an E46, but I would buy one that is already sorted for track use.

i.e. already has a roll bar/cage, suspension, bracing, and rear subframe retrofit etc. I do like that the E46 is more modern, but the E36 is light and is easier to work on. Not to mention less expensive.

I vote for a sorted E36.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Alpine F31

My thought exactly.

I have considered an older M3 as a dedicated track car too. I would take an E36 or an E46, but I would buy one that is already sorted for track use.

i.e. already has a roll bar/cage, suspension, bracing, and rear subframe retrofit etc. I do like that the E46 is more modern, but the E36 is light and is easier to work on. Not to mention less expensive.

I vote for a sorted E36.

There is nothing about the e36 that is easier to work on than the e46. In fact, they're damn near identical, mechanically.

... having owned/worked on 3 e36 M3s and 2 e46 M3s.

Gutted of comfort/electronics/airbags (I assume that's what you're talking about with the cage), with the same engine and trans, the weight difference between the e36 and e46 is negligible.

[Alpine F31]

Originally Posted by Obioban

There is nothing about the e36 that is easier to work on than the e46. In fact, they're damn near identical, mechanically.

... having owned/worked on 3 e36 M3s and 2 e46 M3s.

Gutted of comfort/electronics/airbags (I assume that's what you're talking about with the cage), with the same engine and trans, the weight difference between the e36 and e46 is negligible.

I stand corrected! I change my vote to E46 based on the above information, and the fact that you can run a 275 square set up with the stock fenders.

Plus it looks cooler.

[135TX]

Originally Posted by Obioban

There's no reason the e46m can't be as light as an s54 powered e36m, if you're comparing gutted out cars. The chassis itself isn't significantly heavier. I also don't agree the swapped e36 will always be faster-- it can't fit nearly as much tire, the braking electronics are vastly inferior, the chassis is flexier.

The s54 redline is 8000rpm, not 8600 rpm. I don't believe the s54 to be any less reliable than the s50/s52. Both need tweaking to be truly bulletproof- the s52 needs oil pump nut and oil pan baffling, the S54 needs a vanos oil pump disk and loctite on the cam bolts ($150 in parts, btw).

If we're considering engine swaps a valid point of debate, the S62 is easy in the e46-- the cars use the same ecu and electronic subsystems, so it's electronically pretty plug and play. S62's are easy to get into the mid 500 hp range without touching the bottom end-- And the e46 can fit enough tire to actually make use of that, since the stock fenders can fit 285s on all 4 corners.

And if on track videos are being considered somehow meaningful (they shouldn't be, way to much driver factor, but since you're posting them engine swapped e36's), here's an s62 swapped e46m chasing down and passing a 918

Again, all from the perspective of someone who just sold a 2415 lb, 380 hp (engine swapped) e36 m3 race car.

Where do i sign up for s62 E46 M3? LMAO i would cream my pants in that car

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by 135TX

Where do i sign up for s62 E46 M3? LMAO i would cream my pants in that car

If you're serious, performance eurowerks does conversions, and there's some members on m3f with pretty well documented DIY builds going on.

[zeevette]

Just buy a cheap C5, and go faster. Nothing sounds like a V8.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by zeevette

Just buy a cheap C5, and go faster. Nothing sounds like a V8.

As an owner of a high torque V8 and a high revving I6-- I'd rather track the revver every time.

[chillindrdude]

What do you guys think about adapting a 330ci zhp for track duty??

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by chillindrdude

What do you guys think about adapting a 330ci zhp for track duty??

I'd go with the e36 over the ZHP. The M54... doesn't like track use overly much.

e82 128i could be a REALLY solid track car. They're <3100 lbs once you get the runflats off (if you get a manual car without idrive or sunroof), and the N52 can make 300 hp with bolt ons and a tune (made up to 282hp stock from BMW).

e82 128i, light wheels, LSD, 3 stage disa, headers, tune would be a fun, reliable track car that you didn't have to think about overly much.

[Obioban]

(135i weights 230 lbs more, base vs base, has turbo track issues (heat, power in the wrong place, heat), and the caliper pistons crack when hot)

[Hops128i]

I was wondering why not consider a non-M e36 or e46 if you're doing a track friendly build. You'd be saving a little up front, and replacing a lot of stuff anyway.

Originally Posted by Obioban

I'd go with the e36 over the ZHP. The M54... doesn't like track use overly much.

e82 128i could be a REALLY solid track car. They're <3100 lbs once you get the runflats off (if you get a manual car without idrive or sunroof), and the N52 can make 300 hp with bolt ons and a tune (made up to 282hp stock from BMW).

e82 128i, light wheels, LSD, 3 stage disa, headers, tune would be a fun, reliable track car that you didn't have to think about overly much.

Is the M54 that bad? I'm also considering another 128i for a track car, but i've read about the brake limp mode that seems to have no work around.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Hops128i

I was wondering why not consider a non-M e36 or e46 if you're doing a track friendly build. You'd be saving a little up front, and replacing a lot of stuff anyway.





Is the M54 that bad? I'm also considering another 128i for a track car, but i've read about the brake limp mode that seems to have no work around.

The head lifts with the stock head bolts.

Upgrade the bolts and they strip the block.

Oil starvation on heavy g cornering

Power in the wrong place for track use

Not much power and not much gains to be had.

M54 just isn't great for track use. Awesome, low effort street engine... But not really up to the tracking task.


I thought the n52 calculated brake fade limp mode thing had been figured out (how to code off)... But I haven't been following it that closely. That would be a deal breaker, if it can't be turned off! If so, very sad as the n52 is an awesome little engine (imo bmw's best non M engine), the e82 is super rigid and n52 e82's are pretty light!

[B.M.W.]

Why not a 1999-2000 Z3 M-Coupe?
But if it's between the e36M & e46M I'd vote for the e36.

Less weight, easier maintenance, cheaper to own/modifiy, more reliable & cheaper price to buy. And if you manage to blow the engine you can find another one for a good price or an S54 to drop in & have the best of both worlds.

Or you know, LS1-2-3 drop in...but that's another idea.

Z3 M Coupe or e36 M3.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by B.M.W.

Why not a 1999-2000 Z3 M-Coupe?
But if it's between the e36M & e46M I'd vote for the e36.

Less weight, easier maintenance, cheaper to own/modifiy, more reliable & cheaper price to buy. And if you manage to blow the engine you can find another one for a good price or an S54 to drop in & have the best of both worlds.

Or you know, LS1-2-3 drop in...but that's another idea.

Z3 M Coupe or e36 M3.

Z3m coupes are stupidly expensive, have the weakest subframe of the 3, don't have enough space for a helmet if you're at all tall, and have quite primitive rear suspension geometry.

And, if you're driving to the track, hugely less practical-- m3 trunk/back seat easily accommodates 4 wheels/tires, jack, tools, pop up tent, impact gun, bag, etc. z3mc does... Not

[B.M.W.]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Z3m coupes are stupidly expensive, have the weakest subframe of the 3, don't have enough space for a helmet if you're at all tall, and have quite primitive rear suspension geometry.

And, if you're driving to the track, hugely less practical-- m3 trunk/back seat easily accommodates 4 wheels/tires, jack, tools, pop up tent, impact gun, bag, etc. z3mc does... Not

The 1999-2000 I've seen go from $10k-$18k depending on rarity, and most have the issues addressed. Headspace however is an issue.

As for space, I rode in a Z3 coupe (non-M) and we had 2 6'4+ 200+ pound people in the boot.

It was just a suggestion, but I was wrong apparently. e36 all the way then!

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by B.M.W.

The 1999-2000 I've seen go from $10k-$18k depending on rarity, and most have the issues addressed. Headspace however is an issue.

As for space, I rode in a Z3 coupe (non-M) and we had 2 6'4+ 200+ pound people in the boot.

It was just a suggestion, but I was wrong apparently. e36 all the way then!

that's 2-3 times the price of an e36m in track condition, and more than an e46m in track condition.

[Adnljfd]

My vote: E46 casesam.
More price, more ourcase enjoy.