[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

The really interesting thing about Hyundai to me is that for a Korean brand, it has Honda levels of obstinance.

...

It's not dead, but it's not healthy, either -- and the perception of Genesis/Equus that already exists, both in North America and elsewhere, is not going to help.

Sure, I can appreciate those points, but to me nothing here spells certain doom. We'll see how this goes, but my gut right now feels that they are going have some surprises in store for this brand, just as they did as they grew the Hyundai brand from the garbage dump situation they were in back in the 1990s on their way to the sales success they have become today.

The "N" performance designation is already a joke -- and not just on this forum since it's a direct rip from BMW M. The car mags chuckle at it, too.

That's a tune that'll change immediately if the product delivers, which it may very well do. It's all pot shots. Plus, Lexus' F arm isn't exactly lighting the streets afire today, for example. RC-F and GS-F are by and large underperformers compared to the competition. Infiniti can't even decide what IPL means, and Acura doesn't even care to pretend to make a fun sport sedan. Who else? No one has a serious threat to the German brands from a performance perspective aside from Cadillac, and they have much bigger problems to worry about. Lot's of room to take this market by the horns with the right product.

One decision Hyundai must make regarding that is whether to build "N" cars for the Hyundai brand or the new luxury brand -- or both. In my mind, the only shot Hyundai has is if they reserve N for one brand at the exclusion of the other AND pair it with a very aggressive racing campaign.

Maybe. All I care about is the hardware anyway, so if the N Brand doesn't cover Genesis, no matter, as long as they get the powertrains and chassis. Either way, the RWD cars are all but certain to get the factory tuning attention because let's face it - a 400hp+ Sonata or Azera isn't winning accolades. They've already got a strong V8, a turbocharger would really shake things up quite a bit.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Sure, I can appreciate those points, but to me nothing here spells certain doom. We'll see how this goes, but my gut right now feels that they are going have some surprises in store for this brand, just as they did as they grew the Hyundai brand from the garbage dump situation they were in back in the 1990s on their way to the sales success they have become today.

I'm sure it will have surprises. Probably a few good ones, too. (You have no idea how I wish it would put that mid-engine Veloster prototype into service, either as a race car or a production car ... ). But history, precedent, existing hurdles, and Hyundai's corporate personality all indicate that it has its work cut out. Big time. To be successful, it will need to turn portions of its business, behavioral, and financial models on their proverbial ears.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Plus, Lexus' F arm isn't exactly lighting the streets afire today, for example. RC-F and GS-F are by and large underperformers compared to the competition. Infiniti can't even decide what IPL means, and Acura doesn't even care to pretend to make a fun sport sedan. Who else? No one has a serious threat to the German brands from a performance perspective aside from Cadillac, and they have much bigger problems to worry about. Lot's of room to take this market by the horns with the right product.

Lexus and Acura didn't incorporate nascent racing or motorsport programs; that was a mistake for the long term. Acura's was stillborn because of Honda's burgeoning F1 and motorcycle involvement at the time, and Toyota's strategy at the time aimed toward NASCAR and the American-built Camry and Tacoma. (It's really too bad Lexus didn't make the LFA more attainable, both in price and production. Bad timing.). Infiniti, as we all know, dabbled in racing -- but by the time any of it could be translated to production vehicles, Infiniti was struggling with a decidedly non-sporting lineup until the G30 -- which basically saved the marque but was based on the Nissan Z, not Infiniti's own developed tech.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

All I care about is the hardware anyway, so if the N Brand doesn't cover Genesis, no matter, as long as they get the powertrains and chassis. Either way, the RWD cars are all but certain to get the factory tuning attention because let's face it - a 400hp+ Sonata or Azera isn't winning accolades. They've already got a strong V8, a turbocharger would really shake things up quite a bit.

Agreed on all fronts. I feel strongly, though, that that hardware can't be third-party-tuner developed for it to translate to a luxury marque quickly. It has to come from legit racing by that same marque. "N" will need to race, yesterday. Otherwise, people will consider it 'rice' -- fairly or not -- because of the parent company.

[davis449]

I'll say this, Genesis offers me even 80% of what BMW does in a car and better service (which won't be hard to achieve) I would consider buying one in a heartbeat. I'm so fed up with BMW's shitty service that I am considering rolling negative equity into another vehicle just to get away from it.

If they attack this with the fervor Lexus did back in the late 80s\early 90's, I think they can achieve success. I am rooting for their success.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by davis449

I'll say this, Genesis offers me even 80% of what BMW does in a car and better service (which won't be hard to achieve) I would consider buying one in a heartbeat. I'm so fed up with BMW's shitty service that I am considering rolling negative equity into another vehicle just to get away from it.

If they attack this with the fervor Lexus did back in the late 80s\early 90's, I think they can achieve success. I am rooting for their success.

Funny, I have the opposite to say. The Hyundai I had was a POS & when I took it in, was treated like a clown.

When I had to take my BMW in, I was treated with respect.

[mkoesel]

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/01/14/h...rmance-models/

Genesis + N will indeed be a thing.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/01/14/h...rmance-models/

Genesis + N will indeed be a thing.

Please don't.

Please don't turn this into a gaming reference.

Pleaseee

WTF Genesis N+?!

[David70]

With N coming after M shouldn't this be better than what BMW has?

[Delta0311]

Originally Posted by Arcades

Please don't.

Please don't turn this into a gaming reference.

Pleaseee

WTF Genesis N+?!

SEGA

[jkrig]

I think they are on the right path....the Genesis (car) is already an established nameplate it the model restructure wont hurt, (seems like every brand is doing it) and the new dealer network will most likely bring in the higher end buyer that doesn't want to rub elbows with the 19yo student buying the Accent. As sales go for the current Genesis sedan or soon to be G80, it outsold both the GS,MKZ, A6, and CTS last year so...theres that....

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by Samurai of 2day

So my question is what about Acura makes people feel like it is so drastically inferior to Infiniti and Lexus? Wouldn't that be the same process to make someone feel like BMW is drastically inferior to MB and Audi?

Thoughts?

2 Key things that exist in all luxury brands..

• NO V8
• NO RWD ( or atleast RWD Based AWD )

Thats what separates the boys from the men, Acura has neither... Hyundai already has both.

All BS aside the new genesis is pretty damn nice.

[FriskyDingo]

This will require separate stores that are Genesis-exclusive to have any chance whatsoever. And even then, I only see them being on an equal footing with Acura, Infiniti, Lincoln.

[Samurai of 2day]

Originally Posted by QUiKSR20

2 Key things that exist in all luxury brands..

• NO V8
• NO RWD ( or atleast RWD Based AWD )

Thats what separates the boys from the men, Acura has neither... Hyundai already has both.

All BS aside the new genesis is pretty damn nice.

I agree that the new Hyundai Genesis is a nice car.

I see the point you are making, but I don't believe a car needs a V8 engine to be considered a luxury car.

When sitting in a Lexus or Acura or Infiniti, I feel like the similarities in fit, finish and quality put those three makes on equal ground. As far as performance, all makes across the spectrum have powerful cars, and not so powerful, so performance has nothing to do with luxury. My humble opinion, of course.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by Samurai of 2day

I agree that the new Hyundai Genesis is a nice car.

I see the point you are making, but I don't believe a car needs a V8 engine to be considered a luxury car.

When sitting in a Lexus or Acura or Infiniti, I feel like the similarities in fit, finish and quality put those three makes on equal ground. As far as performance, all makes across the spectrum have powerful cars, and not so powerful, so performance has nothing to do with luxury. My humble opinion, of course.

I agree 100% from the interior and features Acura is right there with Infiniti & Lexus, The driving dynamics and exterior proportions on a RWD car looks different and gives a more luxury
feel also being pushed vs pulled and also the smoothness of a v8. The cabins also look different with the high center consoles & cockpit feeling you dont usually get in FWD based cars.

[RSBro]

They're not bad looking cars. If you're shopping for a German saloon you're probably not cross-matching that to a Hai-oon-die (man I miss Top Gear!!) but you never know.
The fact is the more competition the Big 3 have the more they're going to have to setup their game up to differentiate themselves which should lead to improved reliability and fit and finish (which is already good).

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by RSBro

They're not bad looking cars. If you're shopping for a German saloon you're probably not cross-matching that to a Hai-oon-die (man I miss Top Gear!!) but you never know.
The fact is the more competition the Big 3 have the more they're going to have to setup their game up to differentiate themselves which should lead to improved reliability and fit and finish (which is already good).

Competition helps us as consumers win I agree, I think if they nail the reliability they got it all! Fit / Finish / Design etc is top notch and reliability isn't terrible just needs to improve to the others or closer to it.

[08njSTEP]

I was struck by the poor proportions of the Eqqus. HUGE trunk with very little back seat leg room. Look at S550 or 7 and its a sofa with ottoman. The interior materials also need upgrade.

[Mavus]

Here we go .. Mr. Biermann's role


The company’s recent hiring strategy makes clear where its ambitions lie. It poached Albert Biermann, formerly chief engineer for BMW M, to head up the N division. The first product to emerge from that division will be an N version of the front-drive i30 hatchback, primarily aimed at Europe; but after conversations with Biermann and other senior Hyundai executives, we expect that the second will be an N-tuned version of the upcoming Genesis G70 coupe.

The G70, of course, is the smaller (and as yet unseen) sedan that will slot below the existing G80 and the recently launched G90 in the Genesis lineup, and which will spawn a sportier two-door sibling. Biermann describes the G70 as being a “whole new animal” compared to the other cars, sharing their rear-drive layout but with a new platform and “different axle concepts.” He adds, “This will be more on the sporty side already in the normal version, so you [can] expect [a] really nice-handling car. . . . That platform is good for a lot of power.”

Where might that power come from? Genesis has the Tau 5.0-liter V-8 to call upon, but Biermann indicates it’s unlikely to be used in the G70. Instead, the newly launched 3.3-liter twin-turbocharged V-6 is more likely, although tuned to deliver considerably more than the 365 horsepower claimed for it in the G80; we’d be surprised if it couldn’t either match or beat the M4’s 425 horsepower.


http://blog.caranddriver.com/hyundai...genesis-coupe/

[Ravenseal]

I recently bought my 335is, coming from a well-modified Genesis Coupe 3.8 R-Spec, and I can comfortably say Hyundai still has ways to go. They are getting there, albeit slowly, but I don't see how they can plan to challenge the M3/M4 in terms of overall dynamics. Power might be another story. Their 3.3TT looks to be solid.

[08njSTEP]

Hyundai has really improved the structure of their cars. Welds are really quite good and the structural panels fit well. I really dislike their cars, but the important part is well built. It took a long time and this quality is new within the last 3-4 years.

[David70]

From my experience with Hyundai, they have never had much "sport" and seem to be most about checking off all of the necessary boxes but missing the emotion or "interesting" factors. Like someone put a list of things a car needs to have, from RWD, to interior and exterior features, but in the end when comparison tests are done they are missing something.

I think the "luxury/sport" segment will be a tough hurdle to get over and think they will have all of the features we expect, engine looks good, has the right suspension, has the right interior features, but will still be missing some things.

I also think going up market but not wanting to separate the dealerships showrooms at all will be an issue. Some people really want the "luxury" showrooms and how they are treated there.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

I recently bought my 335is, coming from a well-modified Genesis Coupe 3.8 R-Spec, and I can comfortably say Hyundai still has ways to go. They are getting there, albeit slowly, but I don't see how they can plan to challenge the M3/M4 in terms of overall dynamics. Power might be another story. Their 3.3TT looks to be solid.

They are definitely moving fast, The Sedan I believe is alot more refined than the coupe.. Regardless nice cars, dead reliable and they are moving fast just like Cadillac.

Originally Posted by David70

From my experience with Hyundai, they have never had much "sport" and seem to be most about checking off all of the necessary boxes but missing the emotion or "interesting" factors. Like someone put a list of things a car needs to have, from RWD, to interior and exterior features, but in the end when comparison tests are done they are missing something.

This is the same feeling I got with my G35, It was a great car and I couldnt put my finger on anything wrong... But it lacked that soul that made me want to get in and drive and truly enjoy it.. As corny as that sounds the car needs soul which makes you love it.. The BMW seems to have this, My G35 did not.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by David70

From my experience with Hyundai, they have never had much "sport" and seem to be most about checking off all of the necessary boxes but missing the emotion or "interesting" factors. Like someone put a list of things a car needs to have, from RWD, to interior and exterior features, but in the end when comparison tests are done they are missing something.

I think the "luxury/sport" segment will be a tough hurdle to get over....

Couldn't agree more on "all of the above".

Luxury buyer is a tricky one, it takes very long for a brand to be established as luxury and be "desirable". Top gear guys made fun of this in a segment when they were falling in love with Nissan GTR, finding "only one problem with it". Something like "you go to a party and they ask you what you drive.... and you go... uhm... Nissan".

My feeling is, and unfortunately I don't have numbers to back this up, most of their "high end" vehicles today are purchased by a buyer looking for "value" while still getting comparable spec. sheet and features that established luxury brands are offering. Not sure how many people today test drive German or Japanese luxury brands then go check Hyundai offerings.

Bottom line, we'll all vote with our money. Question to ask is, would I change what I drive today for comparable performance and features given same or slightly less expensive offering from Hyundai ? My guess is, not many German or Japanese luxury owners would, but I might very well be wrong.