[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

I agree hard to buy a Caddy when it sits in the same showroom with an Cobalt.

Also Caddy has an issue with design, there products are good but have some way to go with design.

LONG way to go on design. LONG LONG LONG WAY.

[swanson]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

LONG way to go on design. LONG LONG LONG WAY.

I dont agree with Cadi being a long way away in design. If thats the case, where does BMW fit in the design spectrum? They are certainly NOT at the forefront or anywhere near there. Talk about boring looking cars. Wheres Bangle? I think it has to do with an uphill battle against more established marques from Europe. Also, I've said this so many times, but they really need to change the whole dealership experience. It should be Cadillac only or Cadillac and Corvette only. Make the dealerships high end and the experience memorable so people will come back. Also, SUV's are back in a big way. Cadi sells tons of $90K Escalades and SRX's and I think that plays a big roll too.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by swanson

I dont agree with Cadi being a long way away in design. If thats the case, where does BMW fit in the design spectrum? They are certainly NOT at the forefront or anywhere near there. Talk about boring looking cars. Wheres Bangle? I think it has to do with an uphill battle against more established marques from Europe. Also, I've said this so many times, but they really need to change the whole dealership experience. It should be Cadillac only or Cadillac and Corvette only. Make the dealerships high end and the experience memorable so people will come back. Also, SUV's are back in a big way. Cadi sells tons of $90K Escalades and SRX's and I think that plays a big roll too.

BMW is going through a major slump in design IMO, but they still look leagues better than Caddy. It's all subjective of course, but Caddy design is a mess. They were off to a good start with the CTS-V revamp, but lost it with the new generation.

[Never_Enough]

I'd love to own a new ATS-V or CTS-V, but that price tag...

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

BMW is going through a major slump in design IMO, but they still look leagues better than Caddy. It's all subjective of course, but Caddy design is a mess. They were off to a good start with the CTS-V revamp, but lost it with the new generation.

You said it yourself, looks are subjective. That doesn't make Caddy design "a mess"

BMWs all look the same right now.

Looks need to be taken out of all these damn discussions.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by swanson

I dont agree with Cadi being a long way away in design. If thats the case, where does BMW fit in the design spectrum? They are certainly NOT at the forefront or anywhere near there. Talk about boring looking cars. Wheres Bangle? I think it has to do with an uphill battle against more established marques from Europe. Also, I've said this so many times, but they really need to change the whole dealership experience. It should be Cadillac only or Cadillac and Corvette only. Make the dealerships high end and the experience memorable so people will come back. Also, SUV's are back in a big way. Cadi sells tons of $90K Escalades and SRX's and I think that plays a big roll too.

High end dealership feeling is not the problem. I received some of the best service ever @ Saturn dealerships. I've been treated like shit at high end dealerships as well as low end.

[mremg]

If Cadillacs looked atleast like Lexus, I would imagine their sales will double. Every time a car magazine sings praises about Cadillac, I look at the pictures and just go 'meh'.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

2. they need to stop cannibalizing products from the lower end models to make caddys- i.e. the slade is a yukon/suburban, the ats shares platforms with the camaro, etc. lincoln is another example of ford's failure to get their brand prestige off the ground.

Yet the Escalade prints money for them...... The Escalade being on the same platform as the Tahoe/Suburban isn't the problem.

Why does it all of a sudden become the ATS/CTS are gussied up Camaro's when the ATS and CTS came first to ride on the Alpha platform? Like it or not, the Camaro will be recouping the costs of the development of the Alpha platform. GM planned it out like that and why we have the ATS and CTS today as we know them.

Sharing platforms isn't the problem or Lexus would be in the same situation too. But their high sellers are based off the Avalon and Highlander.

[FogCityM3]

The caddy is a fantastic performer for sure, but think most customers would prefer a somewhat slower car (e.g. M3/M4) to one that just doesn't have what it takes in the looks dept. Too bad, as the ATS/V is a real contender and many believe to be a superior handler to comparable BMW product. Looks do matter.

[Nitrousbird]

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

1. Typical Cadillac customers could not care less about 400HP+
2. Performance cars customers would not be caught dead in a Cadillac. I know I would not.
3. Interior is still not up to par with BMW and Audi

1. My Caddy makes 400+HP and I care a lot; wish it made more
2. The car that will replace my BMW will likely be a CTS-V; probably the 2nd gen CTS-V coupe.
3. Depends on the models we are talking about; not all BMW interiors are worth writing home about; same goes for Audi.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by OrangeZ06

You said it yourself, looks are subjective. That doesn't make Caddy design "a mess"

BMWs all look the same right now.

Looks need to be taken out of all these damn discussions.

So say you. But they're not selling, so something's gotta give.

[davis449]

The other part of the equation missing from this discussion in terms of dealerships is that it's kinda hard to convince a franchise owner that he needs to stop selling his Cadillac inventory on the same showroom floor as his Chevy's and Buicks because of the costs involved with such a seperation. So, now, the argument is going to be "Well Cadillac should pony up to help them!" Yeah, with what money??? That's the problem they are faced with, currently, in terms of dealership infrastructure. Go read up on it. This is something that Cadillac is already working on, it is SO much easier said than done. Here, a lot of people buy Cadillacs. Is it a coincidence that both our Caddy dealers are independent (of other GM dealers owned by the same groups) and free-standing? IDK...I really don't. I will say that, in my experience, both of them measure up to other luxury marques. As for Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti they had the benefit of time being allowed to think through their dealer structure before launching. So it's still not fair to compare their abilities to be where they are and do what they do to Cadillac's.

For me, I love the exterior styling of the newer Caddy's, but I have to live INSIDE the damn thing. I just don't like the interior of a Chevy Volt, sorry...

[David70]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

You do realize that my posts were jokes in response to other posts? I neither believe that bmw drivers are douchebags or that cadillac drivers are old people cars.

Sales figures show that the brand sells less cars than its competitors, Cadillac is not setting records in really any category compared to its competitors.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/

ATS sells about 1500-1800 a month. so any slight variation in sales affects the % a lot more than 12,000-15,000 a month of a 3/4 series. I hope you understand that when you compare 2 extreme numbers like that in % terms it is a silly discussion.

You should love your ATS, it is a fine car. The brand is not selling compared to the competition. That is a fact.

I saw no offense to the "old person car" or the "BMW douche" as it doesn't matter but reality is some of both stigma's are true. My wife couldn't believe I wanted a Cadillac and she wasn't interested in BMW partly for the BMW image. When I tell someone I bought an ATS, many question why I would consider a Cadillac and even ask what it is (no idea it is a small "sporty" sedan). Tell anyone you bought a 3 series and no explanation needed.

No matter how great the next Jaguar sedan is it won't sell in record numbers or come anywhere close to the numbers the 3/4 series sell, therefore using the same logic, we might as well declare it not as good as the 3/4 series and it is a sales failure right now. I mean if you can't beat the highest volume seller you must have the wrong product.

I also believe that BMW realizes (and for chasing the volume Cadillac probably should also) that the masses aren't interested in steering feel, have limited interest in ultimate handling and care far more for expensive dealerships and brand image. Not sure chasing volume is really any interest to me personally as I am not a stockholder but instead interested in a certain type of vehicle.

Virtually all BMW cars and Cadillac cars are down in both numbers and virtually all SUV/CUV's are up. Seems to me we should at least consider where the market has gone as being part of the problem. The SRX was headed out the door for the new model and it sold in record numbers and the Escalade is also doing extremely well. Somehow for both the dealerships and sales people suddenly were ok.

[scoobysaurus]

Cadillac has got it all wrong. They should use the Escalade's truck platform to build a full size V8 sedan that handles like a boat but has every luxury known to man. This would appeal to their clientele very well and also effectively fill the gap left by the BOF Lincoln Town Car.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by quagmire

Yet the Escalade prints money for them...... The Escalade being on the same platform as the Tahoe/Suburban isn't the problem.

Why does it all of a sudden become the ATS/CTS are gussied up Camaro's when the ATS and CTS came first to ride on the Alpha platform? Like it or not, the Camaro will be recouping the costs of the development of the Alpha platform. GM planned it out like that and why we have the ATS and CTS today as we know them.

Sharing platforms isn't the problem or Lexus would be in the same situation too. But their high sellers are based off the Avalon and Highlander.

Escalade Sales are very ..... so-so. compare sales of 2015 to the other brands- it is very telling.



compare these sales to the closest priced competitors and you will see that it is not a leading any sales competition.

notes: GLE - limited data based on name change from ML class. GL is priced higher on avg than the Slade.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by David70

No matter how great the next Jaguar sedan is it won't sell in record numbers or come anywhere close to the numbers the 3/4 series sell, therefore using the same logic, we might as well declare it not as good as the 3/4 series and it is a sales failure right now. I mean if you can't beat the highest volume seller you must have the wrong product.

Cadillac builds really good cars, but they are not selling.

15 worst selling cars in the USA (2015), Cadillac holds 3 spots. Note that avg days to turn is telling a different story than total sales per month, it is telling you that the cars are sitting on the lots after being manufactured and delivered. The Mitsubishi Mirage at #11 is selling better than these cars. There are no bmw's, audi's, or mb's on this list.



8. CTS
> Make: Cadillac
> Avg. days to turn: 141.3
> 2014-2015 sales change: -37.4%
> Starting MSRP: $45,560

4. ATS
> Make: Cadillac
> Avg. days to turn: 153.3
> 2014-2015 sales change: -10.1%
> Starting MSRP: $33,215

2. ELR
> Make: Cadillac
> Avg. days to turn: 208.6
> 2014-2015 sales change: -21.8%
> Starting MSRP: $57,500

Your point is that we are unfairly comparing the 3 series sales to the ATS. If I compared the ATS sales to most any other of its competitors, the point of the story would be the same: The sales of the ATS are really, really poor.

If it takes almost 1/2 a year to sell each delivered ATS to the dealership? Something is seriously wrong.

source:

http://247wallst.com/special-report/...t-want-to-buy/

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by davis449

The other part of the equation missing from this discussion in terms of dealerships is that it's kinda hard to convince a franchise owner that he needs to stop selling his Cadillac inventory on the same showroom floor as his Chevy's and Buicks because of the costs involved with such a seperation. So, now, the argument is going to be "Well Cadillac should pony up to help them!" Yeah, with what money??? That's the problem they are faced with, currently, in terms of dealership infrastructure. Go read up on it. This is something that Cadillac is already working on, it is SO much easier said than done. Here, a lot of people buy Cadillacs. Is it a coincidence that both our Caddy dealers are independent (of other GM dealers owned by the same groups) and free-standing? IDK...I really don't. I will say that, in my experience, both of them measure up to other luxury marques. As for Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti they had the benefit of time being allowed to think through their dealer structure before launching. So it's still not fair to compare their abilities to be where they are and do what they do to Cadillac's.

For me, I love the exterior styling of the newer Caddy's, but I have to live INSIDE the damn thing. I just don't like the interior of a Chevy Volt, sorry...

Oh, it's plenty fair to compare because it's proven to have an effect. That's part of Cadillac's woes. The difference is that Caddy is an established marque, while Lexus, etc. weren't at the time of their nascence. And in this case, being established is a very, very bad thing because it prevents change.

It characterizes the challenges Cadillac faces versus many other luxury marques: its parent company has never had the capital or the foresight to properly reposition Cadillac, Lincoln, etc. to compete with those brands' contemporaries. That puts them at an automatic disadvantage that's only exacerbated by the Cadillac stereotypes (you know what I'm talking about ... median age, minority appeal, perceived lack of refinement, etc.), which I'm sorry to say still apply somewhat.

I'm not going to get into some of the technical and creative reasons Cadillac still lags. But there are those factors, too. Thing is, none of that matters because Caddy operates at a disadvantage with its target consumer -- a target that, by the way, is decidedly different than who actually buys Caddys because of the stereotypes mentioned above, which is a massive, MASSIVE issue -- because of its availability structure (read: dealers).

[RickFLM4]

Their marketing (from commercials to dealerships) is questionable at best, their design has plenty to dislike, they refuse to replace CUE, and their prices are not bargains. Sure there are some people that love Caddy, but they haven't given me or many others much reason to seriously consider the Caddy brand as a viable alternative to cars I like (Germans/Jag) or cars that are value plays (American muscle cars from lower tier brands or Japanese offerings). They're just sort of there in the middle, like a compromise. They need to design cars and position the brand as desirable to a broader audience.

[CanadianGatorBacon]

1. I don't like the design of the interior, and that's where I spend my time.

2. Here is an example of the all the different model designations for the ATS sedan, in the order that Cadillac presents them on the website:

• 2.5L STANDARD
• 2.0L TURBO STANDARD
• 2.5L LUXURY
• 2.0L TURBO LUXURY
• 3.6L LUXURY
• 2.0L TURBO PERFORMANCE
• 3.6L PERFORMANCE
• 2.0L TURBO PREMIUM
• 3.6L PREMIUM

What the hell? Nine different model designations? In alternating order of engine size? You want to turn people off before they even get to the dealership, present them with a confusing list of models that they have to sort through the differences to figure out what's what.

I appreciate the range of options, but there has to be a better way to present this. Like engine size, and then make the rest packages, like every other car company. All this really ends up being is 3 engines with 3 packages (because standard is not a package):

• 2.5L (Available packages: Luxury)
• 2.0L Turbo (Available packages: Luxury, performance, and premium)
• 3.6L (Available packages: Luxury, performance, and premium)

This is so much easier to digest. Cadillac's marketing (not advertising, but maybe also advertising) is horrible.

3. They don't offer a car small enough for me.

[ou95grad]

Another problem Cadillac has is the new Malibu. I sat in a Premier, and it was as impressive (maybe more) than the ATS or CTS (plus it has more room). It actually has a more "current" design than either Alpha car in my opinion. GM maybe should have went the Honda/Acura route and just tweaked the Malibu as their entry sedan. I would imagine it will be similar when the '17 LaCrosse hits...it will probably have more appeal than the Cadillacs. GM sure has it's own kind of issues that other companies just don't have.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

I blame the Caddy marketing and GM team.

1. they should make caddy's a brand you aspire to own- the marketing for the chevy malibu is far better than the marketing for the ats or the cts. they should focus on core things that make the car better than its competitors- play up the accolades.

2. they need to stop cannibalizing products from the lower end models to make caddys- i.e. the slade is a yukon/suburban, the ats shares platforms with the camaro, etc. lincoln is another example of ford's failure to get their brand prestige off the ground.

3. they need get their dealers upgraded, most caddy dealers are pretty down market looking, people need to be wowed by the buying experience and the service experience.

no core vision, even good cars and reviews are not going to be enough.

This...+ fix the interiors and old man styling.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by ou95grad

Another problem Cadillac has is the new Malibu. I sat in a Premier, and it was as impressive (maybe more) than the ATS or CTS (plus it has more room). It actually has a more "current" design than either Alpha car in my opinion. GM maybe should have went the Honda/Acura route and just tweaked the Malibu as their entry sedan. I would imagine it will be similar when the '17 LaCrosse hits...it will probably have more appeal than the Cadillacs. GM sure has it's own kind of issues that other companies just don't have.

exactly.

the problem i think also applies to the ats-v coupe vs the camaro ss.

as i mentioned before, it is the same platform, shares the similar transmissions/manual, etc.

Camaro wins on the engine 6.2 v8 and also the interior seems pretty darn good for a car that costs 20k less.

Even though it is not in the same category, I would not be happy with GM if I bought an ATS-V coupe and the Chevy is arguably better.