[JB 330ci]

Originally Posted by cdheaven

the VERRRRRY first thing i said was i was expressing an opinion. and im not gonna do it anywhere else, im gonna do it in a thread called "Share your opinions"

2. im a capitalist i want to be rich. When i decide i care more about EVERYYYYYONES wealth, over just my own, i will run for president. I respect money hungry, greedy capitalist, but i dont believe the president should be one.
please note, im not 100% a hypocrite on this particular bullet point, because i am a vegan for many reasons, one reason being, if all we ate were veggies, there would be more then enough food for the whole world to it.

3. We did we get attacked by {mostly}saudi Arabians, and immediately go to war with Afghanistan?

4. i understand the president gets (notice i didn't say reads or understands) warnings on a "daily" basis, but as far as I believe, he received one that was MUCH more precise then the normal "hey its Tuesday, which means we MIGHT in SOME way have SOME sort of confrontation if I was president, and I got a warning we were gonna get attacked using airplanes, I would have put marshals on THENNNN not 2 weeks after the attacks.

5. i believe your rebuttal to number 2 was totally unrelated. i think, PERSONALLY when Clinton was in office, terrorists were like "hey, this dude is cool, he is like us, he likes to hump sluts, and he likes to help out the normal average Joe, lets NOT attack the us" then bush came into office and terrorists everywhere where like "what the fuck is wrong with this dude, he is a jerk, noowwwww lets attack them"

6. I dont have a six. im still angry you told me my facts were wrong after i disclosed they were opinions and I did so in a thread that said to share opinions. Not to give what YOU believe are facts.

Your opinions are based on what? Your last statement (an opinion) so to speak was false. I only corrected the error.

2. Ok since I misstated what you said as opinions as facts, I apologize. You believe this (the veggie thing) based on what data? Could it be true...I don't know but if you are presenting that as your opinion again what is it based on?

2. The Taliban and Al Qa'ida were in Afghanistan. The training camps and leadership were in Afghanistan. You had a state (nation) run by terrorists. Does anyone believe the Taliban was a legitimate government? The majority of hijackers came from Saudi is indeed true. Does Saudi Arabia fund terrorism? Saudi Arabia is a country of Sunni Muslims who mostly practice and follow the strict sect of Wahhibaism. Not enough time to get into it here. They went to Afghanistan to train and plan their attacks. Does the nationality determine who we attack or does the organization they worked for determine who we attack? If you answer that question than you will have your answer. Does your nationality determine anything except the country where you were born?

4. Before 9/11 the laws were not in place for the TSA, DHS, or federal marshals on the amount of planes we see now for that matter. There was no PATRIOT ACT, most Intel agencies were disjoined and it was against the law from cooperating with each other. See why Hindsight is so dangerous when viewing fro our side?

5. OK. But bombings happened on Clinton's watch as well. I'm sure if 9/11 happened in 1997 Clinton would of invaded Afghanistan as well.

6. See point 2.
Opinions can still be wrong. I can not voice my opinion and say "The Holocaust never occurred." That opinion is flawed and unsupported by facts.

[poldim]

Originally Posted by JB 330ci

I cannot believe you wouldn't think Al Qa'ida didn't cause WTC. What evidence do you have to support your theory?

These videos, talking points, etc have 99% been discounted by people in the fields or realms of engineering, physics, avionics, aeronautical engineers, architects, and the list goes on and on.

People susceptible to believe these theories must also think for a second. What type of theory is this one suggesting?
Do they provide any factual evidence?
What evidence out there concludes otherwise?
What type of bias is this person presenting?
Is the presentation based on facts or opinions?
Is there a counterpoint or a view on other theories or the widely accepted theory?
Do they have experts in any field (must be related) talking?

Instantly looking at those questions you can discount about 75% of the theories out there. The other 25% do make some valid opinions and show a couple of facts but again are discounted by experiments or knowledgably persons in the field.

Seriously I can link to a dozen threads on a dozen forums on theories about 9/11 and then Google a fact to instantly discount the theory.

I can edit a tape to share my points or to demonstrate a bias on something that I have no knowledge about. Does this latest theory or guy have a degree in any field to make any claims whatsoever?

You should question the theory brought on by the government more than those brought on by these "tape editors".

1. What makes you believe everything you see on the news and supposedly hear our government announce?
2. Do you honestly think that the government has told the American people all they should know in reference to these attacks?
3. How do the WTC buildings collapse? They burned for 1 hour and 1.5 hours and collapse yet there are examples of similar buildings burning for over 12 hours without collapsing.
4. What happened to the videos of the pentagon accident site? The gas station, the Sheraton hotel, and the Virginia Highway Administration had direct lines at the accident wall which was immediately confiscated by the FBI. Why have these not been released?
5. How does a BOEING 757 leave a 20 square foot hole with no debris in the Pentagon but yet penetrate through 3 rings?

There is tons of scientific evidence and testimonials from individuals that are exact opposite of what was reported. Also, a large amount of people are unwilling to come forward with what they know because of fear of what the government will do. You don’t really have freedom of speech. Especially if its something in relation to something like this.

[poldim]

Originally Posted by cdheaven

5. i believe your rebuttal to number 2 was totally unrelated. i think, PERSONALLY when Clinton was in office, terrorists were like "hey, this dude is cool, he is like us, he likes to hump sluts, and he likes to help out the normal average Joe, lets NOT attack the us" then bush came into office and terrorists everywhere where like "what the fuck is wrong with this dude, he is a jerk, noowwwww lets attack them"

6. I dont have a six. im still angry you told me my facts were wrong after i disclosed they were opinions and I did so in a thread that said to share opinions. Not to give what YOU believe are facts.

I couldnt stop laughing after reading those. But on a side note, seems like attacks at the US are more plausible if the entire Universe hates the president.

[poldim]

Originally Posted by JB 330ci

Opinions can still be wrong. I can not voice my opinion and say "The Holocaust never occurred." That opinion is flawed and unsupported by facts.

Thanks for not bashing the OP and keeping this to a debate.
Both of you have valid points.

The patriot act has given way too much to the government.

Do the extra scans at airports make you that much safer? I guess if you rarely fly, you dont mind waiting in line for 40 minutes to go through the scan. I fly at least 10 times a year, and think its a waste of time. They take a way nail clippers from elderly women, but what stops some terrorist from giving the guy that brings the food onboard lots of money to plant a bomb, or a gun, or something else? No terrorist is going to try to bring a weapon through the main entry, its common sense. If these people can pull these attacks off, then they are obviously wise enough to find guarenteed ways in.

[JB 330ci]

Originally Posted by poldim

You should question the theory brought on by the government more than those brought on by these "tape editors".

1. What makes you believe everything you see on the news and supposedly hear our government announce?
2. Do you honestly think that the government has told the American people all they should know in reference to these attacks?
3. How do the WTC buildings collapse? They burned for 1 hour and 1.5 hours and collapse yet there are examples of similar buildings burning for over 12 hours without collapsing.
4. What happened to the videos of the pentagon accident site? The gas station, the Sheraton hotel, and the Virginia Highway Administration had direct lines at the accident wall which was immediately confiscated by the FBI. Why have these not been released?
5. How does a BOEING 757 leave a 20 square foot hole with no debris in the Pentagon but yet penetrate through 3 rings?

There is tons of scientific evidence and testimonials from individuals that are exact opposite of what was reported. Also, a large amount of people are unwilling to come forward with what they know because of fear of what the government will do. You don’t really have freedom of speech. Especially if its something in relation to something like this.

Negative
1. I personally saw the message traffic. Plus other stuff I cannot disclose. But since that will not suffice, I work in the Intel business, The media often gets things wrong. We (Intel community) know what is really going on.
2. See point one. Stuff will remain classified for the next 10 years. Other stuff 25 years. The public has all it needs to know on this terrorist event. Many investigations by many unbiased private and public organizations have studied 9/11.
3. That has already been debunked. Look here
http://www.icivilengineer.com/News/WTC/structure.php
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl...ollapse+of+WTC
http://www.asce.org/pressroom/news/d...s.cfm?uid=1057
http://www.civil.columbia.edu/ce4210.../html/open.htm

Seems like other theories evolve around the idea that in 100 years no steel building has ever gone down from a fire. No plane similar to the 757 has ever hit a steel building before. Of course they don't bring that up. Furthermore they understate the temperature of the fire.

4. Anything showing the attack on the Pentagon would be confiscated. It is a miitary building...and showing the tapes would show a vunablility. You will only find 1 tape of the OK City bombing.

Some bias on this site but still shows. http://911review.com/disinfo/sites.html
http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/refute.htm

I've seen some of the conspiracy theories out there myself. Some of them you can easily discount but a few bring up some valid arguments. We will never know exactly what happened so assumptions have to be made. Usually the easiest explination can be given. Some of these sites go on to say we never landed on the moon, the holocast never happened...etc. People who don't view things objectivly will be convinced about a consiracy espesically if their bias is already towards the government.

These sites pick at one or just a couple of reasons of why to discount the offical story. But thy don't refute the offical evidance we know as fact nor do they offer a plausible counter-theory.

Everything was frantic on 9/11. If you replay some of the news stories you will find out there was a bomb at the state department, a missile took down the Pentagon, I heard explosions at the WTC and so on (eyewitness accounts).

I posted this in a hurry so sorry for any spelling errors.

Remember What I said before

Originally Posted by JB 330ci

These videos, talking points, etc have 99% been discounted by people in the fields or realms of engineering, physics, avionics, aeronautical engineers, architects, and the list goes on and on.

People susceptible to believe these theories must also think for a second. What type of theory is this one suggesting?
Do they provide any factual evidence?
What evidence out there concludes otherwise?
What type of bias is this person presenting?
Is the presentation based on facts or opinions?
Is there a counterpoint or a view on other theories or the widely accepted theory?
Do they have experts in any field (must be related) talking?

Think about this before you go check out a site.

[JB 330ci]

Originally Posted by poldim

Thanks for not bashing the OP and keeping this to a debate.
Both of you have valid points.

The patriot act has given way too much to the government.

Do the extra scans at airports make you that much safer? I guess if you rarely fly, you dont mind waiting in line for 40 minutes to go through the scan. I fly at least 10 times a year, and think its a waste of time. They take a way nail clippers from elderly women, but what stops some terrorist from giving the guy that brings the food onboard lots of money to plant a bomb, or a gun, or something else? No terrorist is going to try to bring a weapon through the main entry, its common sense. If these people can pull these attacks off, then they are obviously wise enough to find guarenteed ways in.

Thanks.
You have no idea how much on our side how the PATRIOT ACT has helped the US. It is just too much to mention. In my job for example we could not share stuff with the FBI or with other agencies, now we can and it also streamlined procedures and got rid of the some of the things we would or used to go to jail for. It was about time to reorganize the entire Intelligence Community.

You are angry towards the wrong thing my friend. The Patriot Act has no impact on DHS and TSA regulations on flight and at the airport. This is one of the most common misconceptions. The things you cite are the result of the DHS and TSA administrations not the PATRIOT ACT.

In what way do you say the PATRIOT ACT gives too much power to the government?

[ska///235i]

so where the hell is the Nuclear weapon that we claim the enemy has? war for 4 years and no sign of it....bull

[JB 330ci]

Originally Posted by ska

so where the hell is the Nuclear weapon that we claim the enemy has? war for 4 years and no sign of it....bull

Wrong topic
I'll answer your question but maybe you should do some research first.
- The US never made a claim about a nuclear weapon
- The US entered Iraq in 2003 Not 2002.
- The US entered for WMD, and for other reasons. The WMD reason was the main reason and although stockpiles of WMD were never found evidence of WMD facilities, equipment, and agents (bacteriological and neurological) were found.

Please remember in order to synthesize any agent you only need dual use facilities and a couple samples. There is no need to stockpile thousands of tons of WMD. For such a covert operation which Saddam was running, no one could tell what he had.

Guys...I hate to say this but your just not going to win without debating similar to the way I am.

I think I commented on this before. Facts are Facts. You use facts to support your position rather pro or anti. A weak position is indicated by not presenting both sides of an argument or discounting the facts. I do this for a living so winning or having me concede a point will be hard to come by. So far I hear opinions and what if this and why that?

I'm all for a civil discussion on topics.

[N1]

War is the worst but i think you have no choice. They push you to that, you need a new strategy, a new way and you have to build a new irak army and move north, leave bagdad and close the borders. In EU we have a problem with socialists that support the arab cause but we know we are with US nevertheless without new invasions. You have to fight that war undercover with detentions of all suspects worlwide using the same kind of moves. In SPAIN war against eta and in UK against ira is there for decades now is worlwide and US has the problem in the backyard. I have no illusions with arabs they have to be controlled as their culture is becoming override everyday in tv for instance. In 2006, the cartoons made in denmark were used and seen as an attack against their culture, what a culture ! the problem is there and it will not be surpassed easily. My foreign modest contribution is only to give more angles of analisis and not to enter in any politic struggle.

[poldim]

Originally Posted by JB 330ci

Thanks.
You have no idea how much on our side how the PATRIOT ACT has helped the US. It is just too much to mention. In my job for example we could not share stuff with the FBI or with other agencies, now we can and it also streamlined procedures and got rid of the some of the things we would or used to go to jail for. It was about time to reorganize the entire Intelligence Community.

You are angry towards the wrong thing my friend. The Patriot Act has no impact on DHS and TSA regulations on flight and at the airport. This is one of the most common misconceptions. The things you cite are the result of the DHS and TSA administrations not the PATRIOT ACT.

In what way do you say the PATRIOT ACT gives too much power to the government?

Look at the way I wrote my post. I said the PATRIOT Act give too much power to the government and then left two returns before moving onto my next point.

In reality, all of these things are connected. If there was no patriot act, there wouldnt nearly be as much pressure on the TSA to do what they have. Most of the people complainning about airport security either fly once a year or never at all.

An interesting read:
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-break...1514-2647r.htm


The PATRIOT Act didn’t just encourage information sharing so intelligence agencies could “connect the dots” to prevent the next attack. The Act gave the Executive Branch broad discretionary powers that are not needed in the fight against terrorism and serve only to infringe on Americans’ fundamental liberties.

Here are a few points:

[Enroutte]

this is why i hated taking AP US History and Government.

[thedean786]

9/11 was the culmination of 50 years of bad foreign policy....

[Enroutte]

EL FIN!

[JB 330ci]

Originally Posted by poldim

Look at the way I wrote my post. I said the PATRIOT Act give too much power to the government and then left two returns before moving onto my next point.

In reality, all of these things are connected. If there was no patriot act, there wouldnt nearly be as much pressure on the TSA to do what they have. Most of the people complainning about airport security either fly once a year or never at all.

An interesting read:
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-break...1514-2647r.htm


The PATRIOT Act didn’t just encourage information sharing so intelligence agencies could “connect the dots” to prevent the next attack. The Act gave the Executive Branch broad discretionary powers that are not needed in the fight against terrorism and serve only to infringe on Americans’ fundamental liberties.

Here are a few points:

I'll respond by tomorrow and expound on these points and what it means to the Intel Community and why it is structured in this way. I'll also talk about the very points you make as well.

Originally Posted by Enroutte

this is why i hated taking AP US History and Government.

Actually schools nowdays need to focus more on History and Government (Civics). It is surprising when surveys are conducted and people don't know any basic history of the United States or the World.

In some aspects, this is downright offensive if you don't know any History or don't know any of the major events in history. Same applies to knowledge about the government. How can you as a citizen of this country not know anything about the government? (Not you specifically)

[sdorn]

What do you guys think of this Geography Teacher that was trying to brainwash his students? Here is the recording of what he was saying in class.

http://wvw.clearchannel.com/spacer.m...GeoTeacher.mp3

[poldim]

Originally Posted by sdorn

What do you guys think of this Geography Teacher that was trying to brainwash his students? Here is the recording of what he was saying in class.

http://wvw.clearchannel.com/spacer.m...GeoTeacher.mp3

Wow....

Sounds just like my freshman US History teacher...except mine was much more read between the lines type...

[N1]

If you see it as a war of civilizations it isnt one president who makes the difference. In your analisis you are obviously away from the problem of ISRAEL and the ownership of the city of JERUSALEM and they are the central issues in 9 / 11 attack. A government very hard in ISRAEL made the war against US as a primary target because US supports ISRAEL and one attack in US could be seen in arab world as a very powerful action of the fundamentalists wich want much more political status. Dont forget the iranian revolution with khomeiny, perhaps the real beginning of the problem today, it was in 1979 and the religious leader was elected. Your President couldnt be world president, the reds dont like conservative action and no one as the pure reason or detains the only truth, everybody fails.

[CardinalZeus77]

Hi,

Here is a video documentary on 911 ...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...59923762628848

Anyone here watched this?

I watched it all and found it very interesting!

[shimshimhada]

Originally Posted by sdorn

What do you guys think of this Geography Teacher that was trying to brainwash his students? Here is the recording of what he was saying in class.

http://wvw.clearchannel.com/spacer.m...GeoTeacher.mp3

I wouldn't call that brainwashing.

[shimshimhada]

lol I stopped listening after he started discussing the definition of capitalism.

[N1]

Dont let anyone forget that day because these ppl are dangerous and yes images are much more powerful than words.

[Squawks]

No matter how well you boil the whole thing down, it will always come down to this simple fact:

1) The U.S. helped Al-Quaida in its infancy, literally in the 1980s in the anti-Russia war in Afghanistan. Fact.
2) Al-Quaida indubitably was involved in the WTC fiasco. Fact.
3) Therefore, the U.S. did indeed shat where it ate. Fact.