[Mr Carrots]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

This

This

I put down on a ZL1 and sold my bmw immediately after a test drive, the 1le is an even more "visceral" experience but I also need a DD.

I loved my 240i but it had no fire.

[RedCarrot]

ND Miata

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Mr Carrots

This

I put down on a ZL1 and sold my bmw immediately after a test drive, the 1le is an even more "visceral" experience but I also need a DD.

I loved my 240i but it had no fire.

2SS 1LE is essentially the ZL-1 with the NA engine, perfect for me w/"only" 455hp/tq. ZL-1 is great.

So far, it's lived up to all of my expectations, I mean, my freaking BMW creaked every time it went over a bump. Supposedly due to door seals or something, but whatever, the 1LE lives up to the hype, is a blast to drive. Makes noise.

Say what you want about GM, they've been doing this right. It still has a lot of electronic aids, but you can customize them and cut them out if you want. I don't have to push "sport" every single time I start the car. It seems the trend over the last decade with GM is "why not make this totally F-ing insane?". Just things like Z06, then, "why the hell not put this in the CTS-V?", then "hell, lets put it in a camaro too!". "Camaro SS is within a hair of the M4, lets make a way faster version!". Ford doesn't seem to care as much, but this is a great time to be into cars.

[MrSmartyPants]

Originally Posted by eatsleepboost

I have been reading alot of threads on here comparing the e9x m3 to the newer f8x m3 and how many feel the e9x to have more road feel and connection. I came out of an evo and into my e92 m3 and the car is wayyyyy less raw. I find the car a bit too disconnected and tame but now that I went S/C I do enjoy the car but don't get the race car feel. I find myself at times missing having a throttle cable and a twin disc clutch without a dual mass flywheel where the shifts bang into the next gear. I do miss the road noise as well. Never did I complain or dislike the turbo lag either. It's just the calm before the storm. Once that 29 psi I was running hit the feeling was unmatched. I don't need all of this sound deadening in the m3 either.

With all that said I plan to keep my m3 for sure but in another year or so I plan to begin my search for another evo or similar raw car. The kid of car that after putting a couple hundred miles on it you need a break from it.

There must be other out there who feel the same...


Edit.. The evo I am mentioning was an 03 Evo 8. The evo 10's to me got rid of the raw feeling as well. Especially the automatic.

I owned an Evo 8 for 10 years prior to the M3. I loved that car and there were things it could do that were amazing. The most endearing though was how consistent it was with mechanical diffs, throttle cable and no traction control.

Now....in some ways it was similar to the M3, like the solid mounted rear subframe. But that's where BMW has managed to take similar features and design out all the racket and noise. Plus the Evo understeers quite a bit. The BMW chassis is far more balanced (and I had custom Ohlins on the evo). Haven't even gotten to the point that the M pulls like a raped ape bone stock, like holy shit.

IMHO I miss the evo, until I drive the M. It looks better, is faster, is nicer, quieter, better stereo and on and on.

God I miss the steering in the evo though.

[Don Molina]

I have an early S2000 (#959 - Sept 1999 delivered and registerd in Switzerland) and yeah it's amazing. I did a 7h trip in the S2k, my OH and me were both deaf after that You can't have everything.

I've done multiple 7h trips in the M4 without a sweat...

I think people hate too much on the F8x TBH. Yeah NVH is substantially better, just because the industry moves forward and because most people want that.

And the F8x is not THAT refined. If anything it's quite compromised. Maybe because I'm coming from a Lexus LS (I have a weird car history - my M4 is the most economical and practical car I've owned) I see all the little things, but they are there.

The tire noise on the Conti 5p is there and is annoying. The whine in low speeds is there. The DCT is really well thought out and programmed, but every once and a while will clunk. And most importantly, you can feel the rear subframe thumping on the highway when you get on/off the gas. I'm not even going to discuss ride quality...

Yeah the steerig could be better, but it's mostly crap out there anyway. Yeah it's more quiet, and the ASD sucks, but what car isn't quiet in the cabin nowadays.

//M never built a Caterham, nor an S2000. And the M4 can't be dedicated, because it's starts with a platform that it has to take further; it's not bespoke. But it seats 4 and can carry their stuff across a continent, and when you get there and people get off can have a LOT of fun.
There are not many car at that price point that can do that, and every one of them is as disconnected -- if not more.

So, IMHO talking about the M4 (et al) needs to be in context. And people wanting 1500+KG cars to be "direct" and have "feeling" need to have reasonable expectations.


I guess at the end of the day it's to each their own, but sometimes the complaints are just too much...

[Never_Enough]

I have the Miata in my sig. I'm looking for a fun daily or toy that is not raw, though. Getting older & feel less & less like wrenching, feeling all the bumps in the road, etc.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

This

I just received, yet another, price drop notification on one of these. Now $6181 off MSRP.

[BayE30]

My s52 swapped e30 gives me all the raw driving experience i can handle any time i dont feel my DD e90m3 is enough....i havent driven the e30 in 6months.

[minn19]

I love my GT350 for this reason. Big honkin NA V8 up front, no rev match 6 speed and it tramlines on less than perfect roads forcing you to drive the thing. It's not perfect, but it is a ton of fun. But, the Mag ride is better than any of my previous M cars as well so go figure.

[N55darksoul]

I have owned a Dodge SRT4, EVO, Corvette and E92 M3...I presently own a 135i. When I owned the E92 I wanted to sell it too....Now that I have the 135i feels more like the pocket rockets I used to own plus at only 18k and having great reliability...I think its a keeper.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by minn19

I love my GT350 for this reason. Big honkin NA V8 up front, no rev match 6 speed and it tramlines on less than perfect roads forcing you to drive the thing. It's not perfect, but it is a ton of fun. But, the Mag ride is better than any of my previous M cars as well so go figure.

A 2017 GT350 is not a raw car

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by wrecked2001

Just bought a 73 240z. Complete rebuild and restomod is the plan. Either a Sr20det with a NEO vvl head or a RB 26/25 is the engine plan.

I would love to pick up a 240z or 260z to work on someday.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Never_Enough

A 2017 GT350 is not a raw car

Why not, ever driven one?

[gonzo]

Selling my 280Z is a day I'll regret until I pass away.
A GT350 would get a raw vote from myself.
There's current raw and there's older raw. Imo.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Selling my 260Z is a day I'll regret until I pass away.
A GT350 would get a raw vote from myself.
There's current raw and there's older raw. Imo.

I feel that way about my 91 300ZX .

[Germanauto]

Automotive performance is more advanced than ever.

HOWEVER, electric steering killed the fun. I don't care if a car puts up great lap times if it feels numb and too refined. I NEED to feel the road through my fingers.

And all these stupid 4 banger engines aren't helping things either.

The golden era of BMW died with the E89/F10 and will never return. Their cars were so good that it spoiled everything else. Even Porsche isn't what it used to be thanks to electric steering.

[wdb]

Originally Posted by gonzo

There's current raw and there's older raw. Imo.

Fair enough.

[Gooner5643]

I agree the e9x m3’s are a little too refined and sometimes regret not buying a s2000 instead. Still may eventually, but for now I think some suspension, wheels, tires, loud exhaust, and 4.44 rear diff with 6mt and ssk could make it raw enough for me.

[MrSmartyPants]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

Automotive performance is more advanced than ever.

HOWEVER, electric steering killed the fun. I don't care if a car puts up great lap times if it feels numb and too refined. I NEED to feel the road through my fingers.

And all these stupid 4 banger engines aren't helping things either.

The golden era of BMW died with the E89/F10 and will never return. Their cars were so good that it spoiled everything else. Even Porsche isn't what it used to be thanks to electric steering.

I don't disagree wholly, but.... there is something about electric steering rack implementation that plays into it. I don't think you'd find anyone complaining about the S2000 and it's steering and that car has an electric rack.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by minn19

Why not, ever driven one?

Because it has modern amenities, technology, etc. Come on, the 60s GT350 is a raw car.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Never_Enough

Because it has modern amenities, technology, etc. Come on, the 60s GT350 is a raw car.

Don't be pedantic. I mean, a GT350 isn't raw compared to an Allard or a Bugatti 31. You know what he meant.

[sixburgh]

I do. It has soul. My 1983 BMW 320is. She's torquey and runs like a beast.