[Run Silent]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Everything on there is foreign or a truck pretty straight forward.

4 out of 10 are passenger cars - goes to show that if America built a good one they could substantially increase market share. Also - the top 3 are very misleading, since they encompass all pickup trucks from that lineup - i.e. "Ford F-Series". That includes the F-150, F-250, F-350, F-350 dually, F-450, and so on..... It isn't really a proper comparison. The F-150 is easily as different from the F-350 as a Corolla is to a Camry. To make a proper comparison, they should either bifurcate the F-series trucks, or combine the Toyota Corolla, Camry, and Avalon into one bar on the graph as well.

[GiofromNJ]

maybe it's those stupid Chevy commercials -- i sure as hell can't stand em.

[Run Silent]

{trolling removed}

The United States typically falls around 15th or 16th when it comes to obesity or BMI rates. For children, the United States ranks 148th - nearly at the bottom. America doesn't even meet the minimum to sustain a population without immigration (Birth rate in America is 1.87 and population replacement is 2.1).

Sources:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2054rank.html

https://www.nationmaster.com/country...ple/Birth-rate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...fertility_rate

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/...the-world.html

https://www.oecd.org/els/health-syst...pdate-2017.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ody_mass_index

[cfm56d7b]

Originally Posted by gabriel.psd

I don’t think it’s a reflection of the sedan. I think it’s a reflection of the American branded sedan.

The truth in this statement is evidence when a business traveler is asked whether he / she could see themselves buying a GM branded vehicle they just rented while on a business trip. The answer is almost always a confident no.

The problem is governance, starting with the board and CEO. "The fish rots from the head". The governance at GM hasn't changed and cars that no one wants is just an outcome.

From Fortune magazine in 2013: http://fortune.com/2013/04/03/histor...t-auto-chiefs/

Roger Smith, CEO, General Motors

1981-1990

When Smith took over, GM’s U.S. market share was 46%. It was 35% when he left. In the process, he wasted billions trying to revive the sagging giant through diversification (EDS and Hughes), automation (robotized factories), reorganization (two superdivisions B-O-C and C-P-C), commonization (GM-10 cars) and experimentation (Saturn). Smith’s legacy was a fleet of low-quality, lookalike autos, an unqualified successor, and a mountain of debt that pushed the company close to bankruptcy in 1992.

[zx10guy]

It's amazing how people say they "need" a Suburban when they only have one kid; I'm exaggerating a little...maybe. Yet when I was growing up, my parents made due with 2 kids in a vehicle about the 1/3 the size of a Suburban. You can see this inflation of vehicle sizes within the same model line over the years. It's shocking to see an old school 3 series next to the current F series.

Eventually, we'll be seeing these on the road:

[RM7]

Originally Posted by usshelena725

The United States typically falls around 15th or 16th when it comes to obesity or BMI rates. For children, the United States ranks 148th - nearly at the bottom. America doesn't even meet the minimum to sustain a population without immigration (Birth rate in America is 1.87 and population replacement is 2.1).

Sources:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2054rank.html

https://www.nationmaster.com/country...ple/Birth-rate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...fertility_rate

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/...the-world.html

https://www.oecd.org/els/health-syst...pdate-2017.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ody_mass_index

From one of the articles you posted:

Though America is not the most obese country in the world, North America still continues to lead the charts. While a majority of other countries that top of the list are small and sparsely populated countries. Mexico and the US continue to top the list in recent years trading spots for number 1 in North America. The United States is the most obese country in North America with 36.2% of its population having a body mass index of over 30.0. Nearly 78 million adults and 13 million children in the United States deal with the health and emotional effects of obesity every day. According to the CDC an average adult is 26 pounds heavier now than in the 1950’s.

Yeah, ever go to the South? The obesity rates are absolutely off the charts. People are so infatuated by their material lives and by marketing that tells them they have to marry and have kids and buy all sorts of stuff and work jobs where they don't have any time to take care of themselves. It's sad. 15th or 16th worst, in the world, is pretty bad.

[Run Silent]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

It's amazing how people say they "need" a Suburban when they only have one kid; I'm exaggerating a little...maybe. Yet when I was growing up, my parents made due with 2 kids in a vehicle about the 1/3 the size of a Suburban. You can see this inflation of vehicle sizes within the same model line over the years. It's shocking to see an old school 3 series next to the current F series.

I agree wholeheartedly that Americans are demanding bigger and bigger vehicles, which is sad. I will disagree, however, that it is due to Americans being fat or having too many children. The stats are completely against that.

[nick3753]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

It's amazing how people say they "need" a Suburban when they only have one kid; I'm exaggerating a little...maybe. Yet when I was growing up, my parents made due with 2 kids in a vehicle about the 1/3 the size of a Suburban. You can see this inflation of vehicle sizes within the same model line over the years. It's shocking to see an old school 3 series next to the current F series.

Eventually, we'll be seeing these on the road:

Attachment 1944672

Slap a couple (and by couple I mean like 25) of M badges on there and it will sell like hot cakes.

[Run Silent]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

From one of the articles you posted:


Yeah, ever go to the South? The obesity rates are absolutely off the charts. People are so infatuated by their material lives and by marketing that tells them they have to marry and have kids and buy all sorts of stuff and work jobs where they don't have any time to take care of themselves. It's sad. 15th or 16th worst, in the world, is pretty bad.

No argument that America has an obesity problem, however, so do many many other countries. When you look at the stats, the variances are small between the top 1/3 of all countries. Even New Zealand, which many would consider to be a healthy country has an obesity rate that is only 4% lower than America - so while it is terrible, it certainly isn't an American problem - it is a global problem.

With respect to 'marry and have kids' - not sure what you are getting at. America has less children per family than nearly every other country on earth. We also have a very low rate of marriage as compared to other countries. If anything, we should be having more kids - not less.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by usshelena725

I agree wholeheartedly that Americans are demanding bigger and bigger vehicles, which is sad. I will disagree, however, that it is due to Americans being fat or having too many children. The stats are completely against that.

Well, I disagree with your premise about the fatness of Americans. JamesNoBrakes has pointed this out in his post above.

As far as kids, I didn't say Americans are having more children. I'm saying even with one kid for whatever reason Americans make up a justification to needing all this space to transport said kid around. The picture I posted is to poke fun at this mentality along with the I want to be in the biggest vehicle for "safety and better visibility". So when will this race to the biggest vehicle end? Until everyone is driving around in semi's? Per my first post in this thread, all this focus on bigger is better and not a lick of introspective concerning maybe the driving skills of most Americans is shit.

[1MOREMOD]

Weird how depsite data you get arguments on both sides.

[DDD31]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Well, I disagree with your premise about the fatness of Americans. JamesNoBrakes has pointed this out in his post above.

As far as kids, I didn't say Americans are having more children. I'm saying even with one kid for whatever reason Americans make up a justification to needing all this space to transport said kid around. The picture I posted is to poke fun at this mentality along with the I want to be in the biggest vehicle for "safety and better visibility". So when will this race to the biggest vehicle end? Until everyone is driving around in semi's? Per my first post in this thread, all this focus on bigger is better and not a lick of introspective concerning maybe the driving skills of most Americans is shit.

Around here in Big 3 country that definitely is the case with the attitude that the size of your vehicle is a direct correlation with the size of one's manhood.

[jimmyfloyd]

I think the issue is also that GM and Ford for the longest time put out the same cars with different badging, while BMW honda and toyota all focused on one brand.

Think of the cavelier/sunfire or Cobalt/G5, or impala/regal/grand prix/intrigue. Those were all basically the same cars just slightly different shape. Had they focused on one brand for those sizevehicle, like Honda has the civic and accord, or BMW with the 3 and 5 series, then I think they would have had a better run and better financial position. It would have had better sales numbers per segment, and fewer parts to design, build, maintain inventories of. The brands could have stuck around, but maybe like BMW did splitting the 4 doors to odd numbers, and 4 doors to even, they could have said Pontiac should have the 2 door cars, and doesn't need a 4 door segment. Keep the excitement. Chevy should have become their entry level and work truck brand. GMC should have become the luxury trucks and Cadillacs should have been their luxury brand, like Lexus for Toyota.

I think they just saturated the market with their own similar cars, and did not help themselves.

[Mardio]

Originally Posted by obert

My next vehicle will be some sort of an SUV. Easier to get in and out, I can see better and packing thing into and taking them out is much easier as well.

I just can’t see myself in a sedan again that is my DD.

This seems to be the trend of how Americans now view vehicles. The compact SUV is the fastest growing market and every manufacturer is now joining the game. The newest SUVs are almost as fuel efficient with way more cargo room than sedans.

We recently purchased a Toyota Rav 4 for our daughter. We looked at the Camry but for all the reasons above the Rav 4 was a better choice for her. Like you mentioned the visibility was also a key factor in the decision.

[Red Bread]

That's the problem. If you consider vehicle size, manufacturers are making lots of 168-180" long CUV's but nearly no sedans that length. Hell, a stupid Civic is 182" long, same as our fat, huge F30. I think the buying trend is largely due to crappy choices in sedans.

My wife bought a Q5 because residuals on S3's were 13 points lower and it wasn't much longer than the A3 and shorter than the A4. She would have loved the new Q3 because of the smaller size, but it's still a ways off.

She was just commenting that she'd have really loved an M140i five door. In fact we'd have bought that over our three previous BMW's, a 135i coupe, an X1 35i and a 328i. But BMW USA thinks Americans don't buy hatches.

[Captain Blood]

Its not that the US companies don't care. It seems to me they are deficient in the quality they can put in the cars because of the high labor costs. In order to be cost competitive, they have to cut somewhere. And because organized labor in the states where the plants are being closed is so high, less quality can be invested in the cars.

[GiofromNJ]

Originally Posted by usshelena725

I agree wholeheartedly that Americans are demanding bigger and bigger vehicles, which is sad. I will disagree, however, that it is due to Americans being fat or having too many children. The stats are completely against that.

concur. from personal experience -- i went from a honda accord sedan to a bmw x5 (wife owns a 3 series)...the reasoning isn't b/c i'm fat; rather i'm 6'3" and broad shouldered and honestly can't fit in most 'normal' sedans comfortably due to either headroom (long torso) or my arms/shoulders don't have a comfortable seating arrangement due to the b pillar.

i hate driving her 3 series for long periods of time - and my honda just always felt like i was an octopus in a thimble.

[RM7]

I see the same happening from European companies in the US. We don’t want their hatchbacks. We don’t want their wagons. Their SUVs are their biggest sellers here and where the profit is. They may offer sedans for now, but the same trends apply IME.

[mkoesel]

Light trucks will continue to gain marketshare on passenger cars in the US as long as CAFE regulations favor the former, and as long as getting the NHTSA's light truck rubber stamp remains easy to do. Even if the regulatory factors were to change tomorrow, it would require a very specific set or circumstances along with a very long transition period for passenger cars to become more profitable than light trucks.

It is true that a lack of compelling passenger car products can be cited as a legitimate reason for the decline in sales of this class of vehicle from some manufacturers more than others. However, there is another angle as well. It can signal that these manufacturers have successfully convinced a critical mass of their target audience that an SUV is the better buy. If your trucks have become so successful you don't even need cars to hit profit targets anymore, what looks like defeat to the untrained eye may actually be a victory in the marketplace. Consider the $50k+ F150 and Explorer price tags, and remember no one is begging to pay that for a Ford brand sedan of any calibre - a sedan which, even if it existed, would still cost more to make than those trucks.

Also keep in mind the premium market where sedans are a bit more resilient. While it is true that GM will kill the CT6 in the US (just as it is set to get the Blackwing V8), they still have other sedans coming to market next year, and Ford who killed off all of their non-premium sedans still seems interested in Lincoln sedans at least for the time being. Luxury products have large built in profit margin by design, so they are less sensitive to unit sales decrease. And luxury buyers can be more discerning when it comes to vehicle dynamics, with perhaps more among them stubbornly resisting the siren call of the luxury SUV.

The fledgling EV market has potential to make this more interesting as well because a heavier SUV can mean less range than a similar-sized car - something that could get consumers' attention. Furthermore, there isn't the same regulatory benefit to building an electric light truck.

[Darth One]

GM does not make only shitty sedans. The Cadillac ATS, CTS, CT6 and the Chevy SS were good. At least I'd take any of them over the soul-sucking Camry

[Captain Blood]

I know this was an issue 20 years ago, but I don't know if it is today:

Are safety regulations for "light trucks" (SUV's) more lax than they are for passenger cars? And if so, would that make it easier to develop and produce that product?

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Darth One

GM does not make only shitty sedans. The Cadillac ATS, CTS, CT6 and the Chevy SS were good. At least I'd take any of them over the soul-sucking Camry

But Cadillac also shot themselves in the ding dong by pricing right in line with the Germans. An ATS 2.0T might have a manual and an honest to god mechanical diff, but it also has this turd for a dash:



And because of that sky high pricing, they've had $14k incentives for at least two years, and similarly atrocious resale. The chassis is great, but the motors and transmissions are not. Add in sketchy resale and notoriously bad dealerships and it's a pretty easy decision to just stick to the Germans.