[GuidoK]

Can anyone explain to me what the lack of oil has to do with timing?!?
I don't see the connection.

[grannyknot]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Can anyone explain to me what the lack of oil has to do with timing?!?
I don't see the connection.

Nothing that I can think of unless one or more of the pistons seized but that can't be the case because the dealer is turning the engine.
EDIT I didn't think that one through, I forgot about the chain tensioner as mentioned by Tambohamilton below.

We are all assuming that the dealer is telling the truth, it wouldn't be the first time a dealer overstated the amount work that needed to be done, either way the bill will be substantial.

It's a Hyundai 4 cyl so it's really not worth repairing. Find a low mile used engine or new engine if the car is in good shape.

[AntF32]

Cam lobes look to be scored, however it may be just the lighting / angle of the photo. Cross hatching on the cylinder wall looks fine.

If the timing is okay, which it appears to be i would fill it with oil and send it

[Tambohamilton]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Can anyone explain to me what the lack of oil has to do with timing?!?
I don't see the connection.

Timing chain tensioners are sprung by oil pressure.

OP, none of it looks that bad, but there's not much more anyone can say than that from just pictures.

I'd set the timing, replace the oil filter and refill with oil (and anything else needed to make sure the oil stays in). Turn over by hand first, once timing is set. Then compression test, and test run if that all checks out. If all seems well, I'd do oil and filter again after maybe only 30 mins of running. Then again after a test drive.

Just use cheap oil of the correct grade until you're confident everything has survived. Don't skimp on the filters.

Definitely also cut open and check all filters for glitter.

I'd only worry about replacing the engine once you've confirmed this one is dead.

Good luck.

[Redd]

Originally Posted by O Haiii

To answer some of your questions, the car will crank but not start when oil is added. None of the valves are damaged. Bearing clearance test passes. Havent done compression test yet. We don't know how long the car was run without oil but I would guess 30 - 50 miles at varying speeds. This is a hyundai 2.0 liter 4 cylinder na engine. It was our fault, not any fault of the car. The car is currently at the dealer and the conundrum is dealer will charge a thousand bucks just to do a teardown. The service advisor said the camshafts are pointing in wrong directions as a result of the engine jumping timing. He blamed a variable valve timing "pin" as a culprit for now. I dont want to spend a thousand bux to do a teardown and have them start pointing out all these things that need to be done which will drive up the repair bill to god knows what. A brand new engine replacement with labor will cost 6k. Trying to weigh my options.

How can you know the bearings are in good condition without tearing down the engine?

If the car is out of warranty then take it out from the dealer and go do a good indy workshop. Dealer is probably the worst place to fix this sort of problem.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

Timing chain tensioners are sprung by oil pressure.

There is afaik always a spring to back it up, or another mechanism (I've seen ratcheting systems on tensioners, so that it can only tension up, not tension down). Otherwise you'd risk jumping the chain/timing belt at sheer startup
So that chance the chain/belt jumps due to low oil pressure is pretty remote imho.

I just saw the post the TS made before my post.


My guess is that the vanos (or whatever it's called on this engine) on this engine has sprung loaded retention pins to set a base advance/retard in the vanos, that are acutated/released by oil pressure.
I've seen such things in toyota's, which look pretty similar. The function of these retention pins is to start the car
However, this is a function of the car/system, so I don't really understand why this could be broken by no oil pressure. Maybe a weak point of this particular engine.

However, that the dealer didn't do a compression test, which is maybe 5 min. work, is questionable.
A compression test is next to listening to the engine the easiest test and first to do; only the spark plugs need to be removed....
If there's compression, only then you know the valves are allright... now it's speculation.
That it doesn't start is concerning...

[5.M0NSTER]

So $1k for tear down, then another $2-3k for replacement of parts, resetting the timing and putting it back together?

Just get the new motor. Piece of mind and warranty for extra 2k is worth it I think.

[chassis]

The dealer is full of dung on the “jumped timing”.

The only oil-related explanation for no fire is compression loss from cylinder scoring or valve guide failure. Fuel pump, lines and injectors are not directly related to oil loss.

What codes has your dealer provided you with after the test firing?

This is a commodity appliance. Put a new engine in it.

[Tambohamilton]

Don't bother tearing the engine down. Either replace it and have peace of mind, or do compression test etc etc and see if it'll hold oil as it is.

[Tambohamilton]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

There is afaik always a spring to back it up, or another mechanism (I've seen ratcheting systems on tensioners, so that it can only tension up, not tension down). Otherwise you'd risk jumping the chain/timing belt at sheer startup
So that chance the chain/belt jumps due to low oil pressure is pretty remote imho.

If the spring and ratchet were enough on their own, why would they be supplemented by oil pressure?

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

If the spring and ratchet were enough on their own, why would they be supplemented by oil pressure?

Damping and lubrication.

Look at a standard BMW chain tensioner. Most people think that the inside is the oil filled chaimber that builds pressure, but it isn't.
It's the small narrowed portion of the piston that is the oil filled chaimber.
The chamber where the spring sits has a hole in it, to get rid of the oil in the direction of the chain/chainguides (lubrication, and without oil the tensioner itself would wear like crazy too ofcourse).

Also because the oil pressure isn't constant (it varies greatly, especially when the engine is cold, and that can be around 8 bar, where at running temperature it can be as low as 2 bar), the chain would not be at a constant tension, but there would be a difference of 4 fold!). Therefore you want the oil pressure to play very little role in chain tension.
So that is why there is always a spring inside. The chance it jumps timing on the chain with no oil pressure is really small imho.
If the spring wasn't enough, every car would jump their timing chain at startup (where the eninge is cold, so friction on the moving parts is greatest, and there is no oil pressure), or after a big overhaul (it can take up to a minute to reach full oil pressure when you had your engine apart (it's the reason you use assembly lube on cams bearings et), I speak from experience)
If timing looks wonky (which is basically what the dealer said) my guess is, it's something to do with the camshaft variable timing system (what bmw calls vanos, don't know what hyundai calls it).
Like the TS said that the dealer blamed a variable valve timing pin. (so no skipping of the chain; it probably needs a new vanos/vanos overhaul)

Standard bmw chain tensioner disassembled:

[Chihuahua]

I see heavy cylinder scoring in that first borescope picture, those don't look like cross-hatch markings to me at all. That motor is toast.

[zx10guy]

OP. Are you aware of this?

https://jalopnik.com/hyundai-owners-...ls%20recommend.

From just reading through various unverified accounts on the Internet, it would seem running the engine dry of oil is definitely a distinct possibility through no fault of your own.

[KevinC]

3 words: Carmax

[G MONEY]

Order a 2-JZ🤣. Even if you have to overnight parts from Japan

[Alfisti]

I'd definitely source a solid used motor and get an indy, not a dealer, to install. YOu risk spending 75% of a solid used unit fixing this one only to have it lunch itself on your driveway.

[BMWILUVU]

Originally Posted by O Haiii

To answer some of your questions, the car will crank but not start when oil is added. None of the valves are damaged. Bearing clearance test passes. Havent done compression test yet. We don't know how long the car was run without oil but I would guess 30 - 50 miles at varying speeds. This is a hyundai 2.0 liter 4 cylinder na engine. It was our fault, not any fault of the car. The car is currently at the dealer and the conundrum is dealer will charge a thousand bucks just to do a teardown. The service advisor said the camshafts are pointing in wrong directions as a result of the engine jumping timing. He blamed a variable valve timing "pin" as a culprit for now. I dont want to spend a thousand bux to do a teardown and have them start pointing out all these things that need to be done which will drive up the repair bill to god knows what. A brand new engine replacement with labor will cost 6k. Trying to weigh my options.

You are right. Right now you are in a situation where you could look for component failure and hope a strip down will find it and replace or fix and resolve. My guess is they are blaming the valve because it won't hold compression in hopes that the scoring isn't causing that. If its not the valve, then you are out the teardown to inspect and end up going further. Of course this is expensive because it is time consuming and may end up in a replacement engine anyway. 6k for a replacement engine assuming it includes labor would be my choice here if asked right now assuming this car used value to you is worth it. I mean if you guys didn't run this engine without oil, I may be willing to gamble and try to save the engine and hope its just a valve.

[BMWILUVU]

BTW if none of the valves are supposedly damaged, ask them how much they'll charge you for a compression test.

[HighlandPete]

My question is... why has the timing lost position due to this oil issue?

Whether it is the variable timing (pin) or a timing 'jump' (at least one camshaft out of position) was it due to oil starvation (extra heat) to the camshafts/valve gear?

I'm suspicious of internal damage.

Won't fire up/start? Could be timing and/or cam sensor reading (if it has one) preventing a start up.

[///d]

IMO this comes down to how much you want to put into the car vs what you use it for.

What was your indication that there was no oil? From my research all Hyundai engines are interference motors. If timing was "completely" off you would not have been able to drive 30-50 miles without catastrophic failure. With no oil you should not have been able to drive that far without bearing failure and developing rod knock/seizure. I can see scoring in the cyl, how bad it is cant be determined by those photos.

I can tell you what I would do, but I can also do all of this on my own. If it turns over but wont start, I'd add oil, adjust timing and do a compression test. That will tell you if the valves are bent or not. If comp test checks ok, run the engine for a few minutes to operating temp, drain oil and look for shavings. No shavings? No rod knock? Drive it and monitor, changing oil again and inspecting after about 500 miles. Is it burning oil? If so then the scoring is likely bad, if not then I wouldn't worry about the scoring. If there was shavings in the oil or it had a knock, then you know theres internal damage.

Either way it's going to be spendy going through the dealer, but you have a chance at things not being as expensive if fixing timing works out fine and you can drive it afterwards. I guess it comes down to what you're comfortable with spending on that unknown bit.

[O Haiii]

Wow thanks for all your inputs, I appreciate it. Dealer said the reason timing jumped is because these variable timing mechanisms are oil pressure driven. So no oil pressure = timing jumps. Is that a bunch of bogus?

It would be nice to see if I can just correct timing and add oil but to tear down the engine and inspect the variable timing "pins" will cost 1k. So is it worth 1k of risk to just examine what they think is broken? And then if it ends up not being that, i have to spend another few grand to take apart the engine more to diagnose.

I am leaning towards paying the 6 grand to replace the engine with a brand new unit that comes with the 10 year warranty. In the grand scheme of things 6k is not that bad for a brand new engine including labor...

Also, very interesting how some are saying the cylinder picture shows no damage and some say it shows scoring...

Ive also thought of having the car towed to a non dealer mechanic to have them check it out, but like i said, its just keep throwing money at something that may and most likely will need a new engine...

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by O Haiii

Wow thanks for all your inputs, I appreciate it. Dealer said the reason timing jumped is because these variable timing mechanisms are oil pressure driven. So no oil pressure = timing jumps. Is that a bunch of bogus?

It would be nice to see if I can just correct timing and add oil but to tear down the engine and inspect the variable timing "pins" will cost 1k. So is it worth 1k of risk to just examine what they think is broken? And then if it ends up not being that, i have to spend another few grand to take apart the engine more to diagnose.

I am leaning towards paying the 6 grand to replace the engine with a brand new unit that comes with the 10 year warranty. In the grand scheme of things 6k is not that bad for a brand new engine including labor...

Also, very interesting how some are saying the cylinder picture shows no damage and some say it shows scoring...

Ive also thought of having the car towed to a non dealer mechanic to have them check it out, but like i said, its just keep throwing money at something that may and most likely will need a new engine...

Did you look at the link I provided? If your car is in that list, you'd be a fool to spend money on any engine work before either contacting Hyundai corporate letting them know you're aware of the high oil consumption problems or contacting the attorneys heading up the class action lawsuit.