[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by OBI_agent

Number error....it's 287lb-ft for the updated 'Normal' (Carrera(3.6 H6)

Anyway, any 997 carrera will do it for me....

Thanks, you're right those are older numbers.

I've driven 997s quite a bit; C4S; C2S; and C2 (at PCA events.) Each one is a lot of fun. The OP has to figure out what they want in a car, how much they want to spend, etc.. But they should be happy with either choice.

fwiw, the 4 doesn't have that "light front end feeling" for the lack of a better term. However, all the new ones are pretty tame with a lot of "keep you from spinning out" technology. Not like the old days

Here's my "old school" 993 ride: (btw, anybody's M3 here?)

[rmani]

the internals that make up the extra hp from the S model are really solid, and as is typical with porsche the hp numbers are very conservative. The S also has a lot of extra stuff, and it's really worth the extra money over the standard car. I just happen to think both, like every other car out there, is overpriced.

[mPlasticDesign]

Well no one else has mentioned this yet but the S models have the turbo fender flares. drool.

[Turbo>NA]

Originally Posted by x5love

Not exactly. Between the 328 and 335 there's almost 100 hp difference (actually more than 100hp difference considering that BMW underrates the 335) while in the Carrera and Carrera S there's only about 40, that's why I was confused, it's still a little hard for me to understand the real benefit of the S.

I dont think you get what I am saying, the point of my post is, you pay for the name, "S."

[MrHarris]

As you do with ///M or AMG...

[gonzo]

With the prices out on CPO cars I just don't think I would pay the premium to get a new Porsche. New is great but the savings are substantial. These were both 100K + cars new. I would snatch up either of these....if the economy would let me.

07 CPO C4S
6400 miles
Asking $66,800

06 CPO CS Cab
9800 miles
Asking $62,000

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

Well no one else has mentioned this yet but the S models have the turbo fender flares. drool.

I think...only with the C4. Aren't the C and CS the same and the C4S and turbo the same rear quarter panels?

[OBI_agent]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

Thanks, you're right those are older numbers.

I've driven 997s quite a bit; C4S; C2S; and C2 (at PCA events.) Each one is a lot of fun. The OP has to figure out what they want in a car, how much they want to spend, etc.. But they should be happy with either choice.

fwiw, the 4 doesn't have that "light front end feeling" for the lack of a better term. However, all the new ones are pretty tame with a lot of "keep you from spinning out" technology. Not like the old days

Here's my "old school" 993 ride: (btw, anybody's M3 here?)

Damn.....that is an awesome rid op....I always loved the 993....

Anyway, I had a question....is it easy to maintain or .....be honest

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by OBI_agent

Damn.....that is an awesome rid op....I always loved the 993....

Anyway, I had a question....is it easy to maintain or .....be honest

It's my second one. I just replaced my '97 C2S with this '96 C4S widebody. I was putting on the miles on the 2S and knew someone who wanted it. And I had my eye on this 4S for a while. btw, the prices on really good specimens of these cars are close to 2-3 year old 997 prices now.

It's not necessarily 'easy' to maintain, but really no different than any other good Euro sports car. They are pretty bulletproof. Air cooled with a dry sump (separate oil tank that feeds the engine for constant and even lubrication.)

There are known issues: SAI problems with carbon buildup. That means CEL will come on and makes emissions testing sometimes an issue. The main thing is the material of the valve guides, as in older BMWs. But some owners have never had the issue (driving hard keeps carbon accumulation down) in the lifetime of the car. Otherwise a head re-do is necessary ($7-9k)

Little weird things like the immobilizer (car alarm.) The car will lock up and shut down solid if you don't use the key fob correctly or battery in fob goes bad. Can leave you stranded (but won't happen if you have an extra fob or be sure to use it correctly.) There's a list of other odd things, but nothing that keeps people from not wanting these cars.

Repair, maintenance, and parts are expensive. (You're supposed to use only Porsche N rated and tested tires, e.g.) And you need to find an expert technician who knows what they are doing. The great thing is that there are lots of excellent techs, tuners, and race prep shops all over. And resources are excellent; lots of mods, tuning capabilities, etc.. And a great group of owners who share info. These cars are used a lot on the track, so there's always good resources and mechanics. Tons of FAQs on the net, etc..

Pretty soon I'm going to do a ROW 030 suspension with Bilsteins and a Fister Stage II exhaust on this one.

I know owners who have 100k plus on the odometer. They're built to last with proper care.

Most people own them as a second car (mine's not a daily driver.) So mileage is usually kept low. Most all 993 owners are serious and keep the car up. I think that's why their value has remained high too. I insure mine with a collector car insurance company with what's called an "agreed value coverage." That means replacement will always be at the value I said the car is worth. I don't have to worry about KBB prices, etc., when it comes to any claim.

These aren't fast cars at all in the modern day sense, but they are a really unique and satisfying driving experience. They feel like they've been carved out of one piece of steel; you feel every nuance of the car, the road, etc.. Very solid. The brakes are superb. And they have a classic look, imho.

p.s., they are also the last of the hand built 911s. Each specimen has slightly different driving characteristics (personalities)

[KonigsTiger]

S also has a fatter rear that makes it looks soooo much better.

[vAnt826]

Originally Posted by kronzprinz

All Wheel Drive plus all the other stuff, if you can't see the benefit then we can't help.

Stop giving out misinformation.

The C2 and the C2S are both RWD (Hence the '2'). C4 and C4S are both AWD (Hence the '4').

And while we are at it... The GT models are all RWD. The Turbo is AWD.

[vAnt826]

Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico

S also has a fatter rear that makes it looks soooo much better.

I don't think so. I think the fatter rear is limited only to the Turbos, GT3RS, and the GT2.

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by vAnt826

I don't think so. I think the fatter rear is limited only to the Turbos, GT3RS, and the GT2.

Talk about preaching about misinformation, my neighbor has a C4s and the car has the turbo fenders.

Originally Posted by vAnt826

Stop giving out misinformation.

Ok, lets put this to rest:

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by vAnt826

I don't think so. I think the fatter rear is limited only to the Turbos, GT3RS, and the GT2.

No not at all, I own a 911 4S and it is wide as a the turbo, and noticeably wider than the 911 even when you look through the mirrors. It may however be that the S is not as wide as the 4S, in retrospect I recall somehow that that was one of the reasons I stuck with the 4S.

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

Talk about preaching about misinformation, my neighbor has a C4s and the car has the turbo fenders.


Ok, lets put this to rest:
Attachment 219963

Oppss!! It does only pertain to the 4S I see. Thanks.

[stickypaws]

fwiw, all C4S models beginning in 1996 are based on turbo bodies. (The first C4 was built in 1987 as a 959.) In 1996 the C4S was essentially a Turbo without the turbo motor, hollow spoke Turbo twists, and the whaletail. It had the same brakes, running gear and body (without the tail, and instead had the non-hollow Turbo twist wheels.)

That continued with the 996. It kept the rear width (+60mm) fenders and track, same red caliper brakes and wheels. There were some external body trim differences from the Turbo (no air intakes since it didn't need intercoolers, rear taillight like the 993, and no whaletail, etc..)

The 997 had all body panel changes from previous years except for the roof. All cars are much wider than previous models. The C4S kept the same "tradition" of following the look of the Turbo, but with a lot less of the new external trim differences on the Turbo. The C4S and the Turbo look more different from each other than the 996 C4S and 996 Turbo did. The 997 C4S retained the "wide" body fenders of the Turbo.

Wide body Carreras have an appeal (I happen to own a 993 C4S) but because of that width have more drag. Non-wide body cars are actually quicker. That diminished somewhat with the changes in the 997, and in real world driving it's really not an issue.

BMW-M-Mexico, which version of the C4S "911" do you own? (it's usually more common to say the model designation version rather than "911.") Is it a 993, 996, or 997? Which year? What options (non-cosmetic) do you have?

How long have you had your "Super Beetle?"

(p.s., the "whaletail" is known as the "tea tray" tail. But we used to call them whaletails 'cause they were so big; and we couldn't say "tea tray" tail fast enough without tripping on our tongues)

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

fwiw, all C4S models beginning in 1996 are based on turbo bodies. (The first C4 was built in 1987 as a 959.) In 1996 the C4S was essentially a Turbo without the turbo motor, hollow spoke Turbo twists, and the whaletail. It had the same brakes, running gear and body (without the tail, and instead had the non-hollow Turbo twist wheels.)

That continued with the 996. It kept the rear width (+60mm) fenders and track, same red caliper brakes and wheels. There were some external body trim differences from the Turbo (no air intakes since it didn't need intercoolers, rear taillight like the 993, and no whaletail, etc..)

The 997 had all body panel changes from previous years except for the roof. All cars are much wider than previous models. The C4S kept the same "tradition" of following the look of the Turbo, but with a lot less of the new external trim differences on the Turbo. The C4S and the Turbo look more different from each other than the 996 C4S and 996 Turbo did. The 997 C4S retained the "wide" body fenders of the Turbo.

Wide body Carreras have an appeal (I happen to own a 993 C4S) but because of that width have more drag. Non-wide body cars are actually quicker. That diminished somewhat with the changes in the 997, and in real world driving it's really not an issue.

BMW-M-Mexico, which version of the C4S "911" do you own? (it's usually more common to say the model designation version rather than "911.") Is it a 993, 996, or 997? Which year? What options (non-cosmetic) do you have?

How long have you had your "Super Beetle?"

2009 4S

[vAnt826]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

Talk about preaching about misinformation, my neighbor has a C4s and the car has the turbo fenders.


Ok, lets put this to rest:
Attachment 219963

Sorry, I've test driven a C2S and it was not wider. I never knew the C4S had the wider fenders.

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by vAnt826

Sorry, I've test driven a C2S and it was not wider. I never knew the C4S had the wider fenders.

Yes, C4S is wider, its also a tad slower since it has a heavier 4 wheel traction apparatus and IMO also a tad less communicative in terms of steering feel. But, just couldn´t do without the wider rear. lol!

[normtrum]

This is an obvious threadjack, so I apologize in advance.....but I was wondering what some of you porsche experts (like stickeypaws) think of the older GT2's. I have actually been looking pretty diligently at several 2002-2003 GT2's. The one pictured below is a '02 that's priced at ~75k, with about 25,000 miles. I have never been a porsche expert, and have only driven a few, but a GT2 just seems to make my head spin.

Sorry again to the op for the

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by normtrum

This is an obvious threadjack, so I apologize in advance.....but I was wondering what some of you porsche experts (like stickeypaws) think of the older GT2's. I have actually been looking pretty diligently at several 2002-2003 GT2's. The one pictured below is a '02 that's priced at ~75k, with about 25,000 miles. I have never been a porsche expert, and have only driven a few, but a GT2 just seems to make my head spin.

Sorry again to the op for the

Normtrum, the 996 GT2s are nice cars, but the performance reality is that they aren't that much better over a 996TT. My opinion only, but a 996TT is a better choice. The GT2 was kinda Porsche's mass production model of the GT3. It's based on the TT but with just a little bit bigger turbos. So, there's a bit more boost. The intercoolers are a different design, too (to accommodate the higher temps from the compressor.)

Performance wise, the GT is actually slower at lower rpms (although it's lighter than the TT, so it's not by a lot.) In the 1/4 mile the GT will catch up and usually trap .9 seconds better or so.

But if you definitely want a RWD instead of the TT AWD, then there's no choice. The GT has pretty much the insides stripped out (no motor seats, no back seats, etc..) The only real everyday driving advantage I see is that the GT has a bigger fuel tank (to balance all the stripped out weight) and so your distance range is a lot better than the TT.

In 2003, they increased power and torque on the GT2. But also on the TT and added PCCB to the TT. They also fitted the turbos and of the GT2 to the TT and redesigned the intercoolers.

The GT3 is something different all together (based on the Cup series.)

If it were me, I'd get a TT. But unless you really don't want AWD, then the GT is it. I just think the GT2 is too much a TT and without some amenities for daily driving.

The GT doesn't have stability control either. Remember these are cars with exceptional torque but with a VW design. Rear weight and RWD takes a bit of figuring out. You can quickly get spit into the bushes You'll have lots of power but nowhere to go with a TT or GT2, unless that's what you're looking for.

Keep us posted on what you end up getting. I haven't really kept up with the prices on the 996 TT and GTs. I'm curious what you'll get.

BMW-M-Mexico, how do you like your new super beetle? I'm surprised you find the 4 less response than the 2. The 2 always seems bit vague compared and less weight on the front axle. Of course, that vagueness is what the rear engine, RWD in these cars is all about.

A lot of that slowness comes from the wide rear end. Lotsa drag.

What other P-cars have you owned? I'm tempted to get a MY09 997 but I'm a little afraid of value these days. The prices on used are plummeting.

Are you happy with it? What options did you get? Is it a MT or PDK? Color combo? If you owned an older Carrera (964, 993 etc.) do you find the 997 maybe a little too forgiving? I haven't been able to extensively drive the new 2009 version. Any big changes in driveability that you find? (ps, are you on Rennlist?)

[normtrum]

Wow. Thanks for the insight sticky. I have also been keeping my eye out for a 996 TT, and you're right, the awd does interest me. It's really tough to find anything for a decent price with fairly low miles. I'm not really going all out trying to find something right now, but I'll probably pick up the pace this summer.

thanks again for the help!