[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Levi

Give the GT86 same power as Cayman and proper tires it is maybe even better than Cayman. The 4C fell short, it had the right weight, the right power, but many things are lacking to be a real Alfa, like interior and engine character so as steering.

Sure, it might, but that's not what they built. They came out with an underpowered car with pizza-cutter tires.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

That LF-A argument would work if the NISMO GT-R didn't just beat it at a fraction of the cost. My point is that they're not a class leader in anything other than reliability. The LF-A is a fantastic halo car but what about something competitive for the rest of us? Why no manual trans in their performance vehicles? Why no lovely exhaust notes (LF-A aside, obv)? They've been making vanilla cars for 20 years. It's time to step it up.

LOL, isn't it what they are doing? LFA, IS-F, GT86, now RC-F, then Supra, then GS-F, then LS-F, then SC. Tell me what BMW has done compared to Audi or Mercedes.

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Sure, it might, but that's not what they built. They came out with an underpowered car with pizza-cutter tires.

Well, that car was built with aftermarket in mind. Just look at how many supercharger and turbocharger kits there are, and when tuned how fast they become, for a fraction of price compare to anything else.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Levi

LOL, isn't it what they are doing? LFA, IS-F, GT86, now RC-F, then Supra, then GS-F, then LS-F, then SC. Tell me what BMW has done compared to Audi or Mercedes.

Whether you like them or not, i3 and i8 would be the obvious answer here, and egg shaped SUV's.

Originally Posted by Levi

Well, that car was built with aftermarket in mind. Just look at how many supercharger and turbocharger kits there are, and when tuned how fast they become, for a fraction of price compare to anything else.

This argument probably works better outside of the US, where Mustangs, Corvettes and Camaros, whilst larger than the GT86, are a better value with higher performance and modification potential. I love the GT86, but it's a little bit compromised in terms of engine placement, suspension geometry, interior quality and honestly, weight. The Cayman is more impressive if you simply ignore the price. While a stock Cayman is heavier than the Toyota, add multipiston, larger brakes, the necessary equipment for similar power and associated additional cooling and larger wheels and tires and the GT86 will be heavier than the Porsche.

[NemesisX]

Originally Posted by Levi

LOL, isn't it what they are doing? LFA, IS-F, GT86, now RC-F, then Supra, then GS-F, then LS-F, then SC. Tell me what BMW has done compared to Audi or Mercedes.



Well, that car was built with aftermarket in mind. Just look at how many supercharger and turbocharger kits there are, and when tuned how fast they become, for a fraction of price compare to anything else.

More than half of the cars you listed aren't even out yet (GSF, Supra, LSF, SC). Slow down tiger

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by NemesisX

More than half of the cars you listed aren't even out yet (GSF, Supra, LSF, SC). Slow down tiger

If had had to list BMW cars that are not yet out it would anyway sound different: 0 Series, 1 Series GT, 2 Series GT, 4 Series CG, X1, X1 GT, X2, X3 L, X4, X7, X8...

[KingOfJericho]

Here's the difference... BMW is already a leader in many classes.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Here's the difference... BMW is already a leader in many classes.

"was"

Only M3/M4 and M2 are likely to stay leaders, so as M6 GranCoupé, but IMO it needs AWD.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Levi

"was"

Only M3/M4 and M2 are likely to stay leaders, so as M6 GranCoupé, but IMO it needs AWD.

As opposed to "never were"? That's where Lexus resides.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

As opposed to "never were"? That's where Lexus resides.

Plot lost.

[MediaArtist]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Here's the difference... BMW is already a leader in many classes.

Leader according to who? What segments/classes?

Are you sure they're still leading those segments?

Lexus makes some really great cars and visually they're looking better and appealing to a lot of people. I wouldn't discount them.

[Billup]

Originally Posted by MediaArtist

Leader according to who? What segments/classes?

Are you sure they're still leading those segments?

Lexus makes some really great cars and visually they're looking better and appealing to a lot of people. I wouldn't discount them.

I concur. I used to not be a fan of Lexus, but I was highly considering an IS250 instead of my 128. I love where the brand has gone and I hope they continue to keep moving forward in the direction they are.

[KingOfJericho]

Yes, I hear you. I don't own a BMW so I don't have a dog in this fight. What I am saying is that Lexus doesn't seem to be building class leaders in any respect other than reliability. I'm not saying they're not great cars - clearly they are very nice and very reliable. I would just like to see them offer a bit more for the enthusiast. I really like the new IS (probably my favorite car design this year) but I see them continually missing the mark in terms of performance. It's roughly the same price as a 335i but is half a second slower. The car looks flat-out menacing and the interior is gorgeous but it's bite doesn't jive with its appearance. If I'm wrong and they're winning head-to-heads that I haven't seen, I would definitely change my tone but I don't see it. Would a proper manual and an imposing exhaust note kill them?

[MediaArtist]

Lexus is still very new to the performance-centric game. I mean the IS-F and LFA were literally released within the past 5 years, their first entries into those market segments respectively.

From everything I've read the separation between the ISF, C63, and E9x M3 is miniscule, with the latter having edges in steering feel and suspension calibration. Remember, Lexus first foray into that segment.

The LFA is simply a great car. No other way to put it, it's right there at the apex of where all super cars reside. Yes, it's not a Ferrari 458, but it's not that far behind, and last time I checked, BMW doesn't even have an entry into this segment, but I don't hear much criticism about BMW being a "never was" with that fact on the table.

One can only assume that the gaps that exist today will get closer in the next generation cars.

[DASHOCKER]

caddy v series will be making more noise with their upcoming products and will make the f stand for forgotten. lexus moves like molasses when it comes to the product.

[KingOfJericho]

I don't doubt it and I adore the LF-A. It's a monster of a car and it really made a statement regarding their capabilities - what I'm hoping for is a little bit of trickle-down. You and Levi are basing your comments on planned future models which is fine - I just hope they back up those claims and put out more beastly vehicles. I would get an IS350 in a second if it felt like a 335i M Sport or an S4 to drive. At this point, it just doesn't. That's where my main gripe lies.

[MediaArtist]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

I don't doubt it and I adore the LF-A. It's a monster of a car and it really made a statement regarding their capabilities - what I'm hoping for is a little bit of trickle-down. You and Levi are basing your comments on planned future models which is fine - I just hope they back up those claims and put out more beastly vehicles. I would get an IS350 in a second if it felt like a 335i M Sport or an S4 to drive. At this point, it just doesn't. That's where my main gripe lies.

Are we talking about the IS350 F Sport for 2014? Because THAT car which is available now beat the F30 335i M Sport, and Cadillac ATS 3.6 in head to head competition in Car and Driver.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...e-specs-page-5

Their test found that while the BMW powertrain was impressive (as it was in the E9x), the Lexus had better steering feel, ride quality, and handling (and IMO looks less vanilla).

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by MediaArtist

Are we talking about the IS350 F Sport for 2014? Because THAT car which is available now beat the F30 335i M Sport, and Cadillac ATS 3.6 in head to head competition in Car and Driver.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...e-specs-page-5

Their test found that while the BMW powertrain was impressive (as it was in the E9x), the Lexus had better steering feel, ride quality, and handling (and IMO looks less vanilla).

This head to head kind of proves my point. My focus is on performance and where the BMW gained was in most of the performance categories. Lexus has proven that they can build the chassis and give it the look and the fit and finish of a real beast but when you mash down that pedal, you get a whimper instead of a growl. It's SO CLOSE to being a fantastic car which is extremely frustrating.

Full disclosure - I've only ridden in the passengers seat of the F30 so I am mainly speaking from experience in the E90.

[MediaArtist]

I see, so you're concerned more about "straight line" performance, makes sense, won't argue there, some appreciate driver feel/handling, some don't, it's all personal preference. The 335i is faster in a straight line, but the Lexus actually beat the 335i M Sport in the slalom test.

We didn’t see it coming because, on any other type of road, the IS clearly exhibits Lexus’s traditional top priority: serenity. On typical highway surfaces, minute twitches in the steering wheel and nearly imperceptible shifts of the body offer only the slightest hint of what lurks within. But charge into a series of quick bends and the IS completely changes its character. Turn-in is crisper in the Lexus than in either the BMW or the Cadillac, a fact borne out by its first-place slalom finish in spite of a mediocre skidpad performance. More important, the Lexus is utterly imperturbable. Bumps that send other cars skittering off-line or scrambling to maintain their course are absorbed and dispatched, but not kept completely hidden from the driver.

[KingOfJericho]

Bottom line: 30 more horsepower and I'm a buyer.

[majin ssj eric]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

That LF-A argument would work if the NISMO GT-R didn't just beat it at a fraction of the cost. My point is that they're not a class leader in anything other than reliability. The LF-A is a fantastic halo car but what about something competitive for the rest of us? Why no manual trans in their performance vehicles? Why no lovely exhaust notes (LF-A aside, obv)? They've been making vanilla cars for 20 years. It's time to step it up.

You're speaking of subjectivity as though it were fact. For example, I cross-shopped the GS350 F-Sport with the 535i M-Sport and you can see in my sig which car I actually bought (certainly price played a factor here but the point stands). The new GS is absolutely as good a car as the new 5er and I have every reason to believe that the RC-F will be right there with the new M4 as well. Have you driven the new Infiniti Q50 yet because it is also very good? That's another Japanese car that will be giving the Germans a run for their money (of course you'll never admit that because you're obviously a fanboy).

And the Cayman vs the Scion FR-S analogy you gave is simply laughable. Hmmm let me see, a budget sports car trying to hit a price target in the low $20k's isn't as good as a premium brand sports car that costs 3 times as much? Shocker...

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by majin ssj eric

You're speaking of subjectivity as though it were fact. For example, I cross-shopped the GS350 F-Sport with the 535i M-Sport and you can see in my sig which car I actually bought (certainly price played a factor here but the point stands). The new GS is absolutely as good a car as the new 5er and I have every reason to believe that the RC-F will be right there with the new M4 as well. Have you driven the new Infiniti Q50 yet because it is also very good? That's another Japanese car that will be giving the Germans a run for their money (of course you'll never admit that because you're obviously a fanboy).

I'm not sure if you read everything I posted but I was specifically speaking about performance. I'm not doubting that they are great cars, but in terms of performance, they are consistently falling behind. That may be changing but I am basing my opinion on past performance. I'm pretty confident that they view their main competition as BMW and I doubt they would do that if they themselves felt that BMW was not a superior automobile. The fanboy talk is just stupid because I've never owned the same brand twice. In order, I've owned a Toyota, Saab, Volvo, Infiniti, Nissan, Lotus, VW, BMW, and now Audi and I just bought a Grand Cherokee for my wife. I have absolutely no loyalties.

I'm in agreement on Infiniti as well. They are building solid performing cars. We had an FX35 that we only got rid of because it was too small with our infant carrier in the back.

Originally Posted by majin ssj eric

And the Cayman vs the Scion FR-S analogy you gave is simply laughable. Hmmm let me see, a budget sports car trying to hit a price target in the low $20k's isn't as good as a premium brand sports car that costs 3 times as much? Shocker...

I was never the person who said it was even close to as good or should even be brought up in the same conversation. Your gripe should be with Levi on that one. I'm starting to think you haven't read this thread.

[MediaArtist]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

I'm not doubting that they are great cars, but in terms of performance, they are consistently falling behind.

In what metrics? Straight line speed? The IS350 F Sport clearly beat the 335i M Sport in the C&D slalom test which shows its the better handling car and composed car in corners, unless you are only considering straight line performance.

Also the GS350 F Sport handed the F10 535i its lunch in Motortrend:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz1rb65mX3O

4TH PLACE: Infiniti M37S
Lovely -- But Big, Noisy, and Thirsty

3RD PLACE: Audi A6 3.0T
Fast and Powerful, With Minimal Feel

2ND PLACE: BMW 535i M Sport
But Will You Love Me Tomorrow?

1ST PLACE: Lexus GS 350 F Sport
Maybe The Ultimate Driving Machine

At 3834 pounds, the GS is the lightest of the four and it feels it -- turn-in is sharp and accurate, and weight transfer, whether lateral or longitudinal, is neutral and composed. The Lexus proved the most entertaining, rewarding, and confidence-inspiring up, down, and along our demanding Malibu road loop. Ultimate driving machine? Oh, yeah.

Great steering. Balanced, communicative, properly weighted. Just a joy to drive. Neutral without being leaden. Very Mazda-like, in fact. And I say all this having driven the car in Sport instead of Sport Plus.

Lexus GS350 F Sport
0-60 in 5.4 seconds
quarter mile in 14.0 at 101.0 mph
lateral acceleration of 0.94 g
figure eight of 25.4 seconds at 0.71 g

BMW 535i M Sport
0-60 in 5.5 seconds
quarter mile in 14.0 at 99.3 mph
lateral acceleration of 0.89 g
figure eight of 25.9 seconds at 0.69 g

As you can see the GS350 F Sport beat the F10 535i M Sport in ALL performance aspects.

To put out a blanket statement like "in terms of performance, they are consistently falling behind" is inaccurate unless you are enclosing your claim to only one aspect of performance, or only one car, or one model variant, which does look very fanboy-ish.