[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

No one cares about the WCC.
Sure if you can't win the WDC or already won the WDC it's a nice bonus.

But no sane teamboss would trade in a WDC for a WCC.

I mean....1.000.000 butthurt Hammyfans can't be wrong, constantly bringing up AD2021. I mean...in 2021 Mercedes got the WCC right? What are they then complaining about? If the WCC were that important...

WCC mainly means you get 10 million more in prize money, and more windtunnel time.
But if it's about money, just the main sponsor alone will be charged more than 10 million as a performanceclause when the WDC is won.
All media attention goes to the WDC. Fans follow the driver. Or do you think all the Hammyfans stayed at team MERC?

Agreed on all.

BTW - anyone else notice how after Ham "won" the sprint (which they were running even lower there than the GP) the commentators claimed it was his 105th win? Well, Max has won 9 sprints, so technically Max has 72 wins in his career by that same token (and in only 10 season mind you). Not far behind Sch or Ham esp when you consider Ham has nearly 10 more seasons in F1 than Max. Reminds me of how people think Lebron is so great but it took him 22 seasons to do what MJ did in 14. Same here with Max and Ham to a degree except that Ham has a sig advantage due years of a dominant car (asterisk on all).

[G30M]

Originally Posted by M3WC

I am not so sure he would want it right now.

you would be wrong, Yuki himself said "japan? 100%. The red bull is a faster car" when asked if he wanted the seat in Japan

[TheBingoBalls]

All we have is the time sheet on Lawson but we don't know the specific areas in where he's struggling but Red Bull should definitely set a deadline or time table for improvement. If Lawson doesn't show much improvement, swap him with Yuki.

The doubt whether or not Yuki will succeed at Red Bull in the second seat is almost irrelevant, he deserves the opportunity to drive for one of the top 4 teams and deserves to know if he can take the next steps for his career. Red Bull would also benefit knowing where they stand with their driver program whether it's junior or at VCARB. The start of this season should be very telling to Red Bull that you can't throw away WCC and just focus on one driver and go through drivers for the second seat like it's no big deal.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

All we have is the time sheet on Lawson but we don't know the specific areas in where he's struggling but Red Bull should definitely set a deadline or time table for improvement. If Lawson doesn't show much improvement, swap him with Yuki.

The triple-header Suzuka, Bahrain and Jeddah ?

"Give the guy a chance - Gary Anderson
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/s...w-our-verdict/
We all know that being Verstappen's team-mate is no walk in the park, but Lawson seems to be just that bit too far off Verstappen's pace for it to be just the fact that Max is a demigod.
If the decision was down to me I would be heading back to Milton Keynes, having an in-depth debrief with Lawson about his problems, comparing his driving to Max's and then putting him in the simulator - which would be initially set up for Suzuka, a track he knows well, then Bahrain, which he also knows from pre-season testing, and Jeddah, which he needs to learn.
Then I would wait until after those next three races to allow him to put into practice what he should have learned from that intensive simulator programme. After that, then I'd make a judgement on his future.
I think putting Tsunoda or Isack Hadjar in a Red Bull now would be wrong for both teams and all three drivers concerned. I don't think anyone would come out with Dr Helmut Marko giving them an A* for their efforts.
Red Bull gave the guy a chance. Now back that up and actually give the guy a chance."

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Already decided?

If true this is awesome.

[AmuroRay]

Ferrari doing just Ferrari things, but once they iron out the operations issues they are going to gap the grid.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Ferrari doing just Ferrari things, but once they iron out the operations issues they are going to gap the grid.

Love the optimism but there's a reason for #FerrariThings

They just can't get the small things right

Even when they do Lady Luck puts the smackdown on them

But Lewis is looking good, sounding good and driving good

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Artemis

The triple-header Suzuka, Bahrain and Jeddah ?

"Give the guy a chance - Gary Anderson
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/s...w-our-verdict/
We all know that being Verstappen's team-mate is no walk in the park, but Lawson seems to be just that bit too far off Verstappen's pace for it to be just the fact that Max is a demigod.
If the decision was down to me I would be heading back to Milton Keynes, having an in-depth debrief with Lawson about his problems, comparing his driving to Max's and then putting him in the simulator - which would be initially set up for Suzuka, a track he knows well, then Bahrain, which he also knows from pre-season testing, and Jeddah, which he needs to learn.
Then I would wait until after those next three races to allow him to put into practice what he should have learned from that intensive simulator programme. After that, then I'd make a judgement on his future.
I think putting Tsunoda or Isack Hadjar in a Red Bull now would be wrong for both teams and all three drivers concerned. I don't think anyone would come out with Dr Helmut Marko giving them an A* for their efforts.
Red Bull gave the guy a chance. Now back that up and actually give the guy a chance."

giving the guy a chance means giving him a car that he can learn to drive. not throwing someone into the deep end and yell "swim".

in case you didn't realise in FP3 in Australia Liam's car was in the garage for over 50 mins. in the only FP in Shanghai Liam's car was in the garage for over 50 mins.

He's never driven a RB, and he's never driven in Australia nor Shanghai.

the media all over the planet is now all over him like a pack of wolves.

the best way to protect him is to remove him from the limelight and pressure of driving the RB. it's a lottery keeping him in the RB for the triple header. if he succeeds, then great (but Perez could not do that). if he fails his career is over. at least swapping now we won't know if he can tame it but that gives him a chance for a fresh start.

not my decision of course, and I'm a spectator watching to see how this plays out.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Ferrari doing just Ferrari things, but once they iron out the operations issues they are going to gap the grid.

LOL

If you cheat as massively as Ham did with the materially greater performance you'd gain and still can only manage 6th, the problem isnt the car...

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Love the optimism but there's a reason for #FerrariThings

They just can't get the small things right

Even when they do Lady Luck puts the smackdown on them

But Lewis is looking good, sounding good and driving good

As I said above, if you cheat as badly as Ham did and can only manage 6th it's a bigger problem. The problem with their car, indexing just on that aspect, is they designed it to ride so low that the best performance will only come with illegal floor wear. The result is raising the ride height and losing performance. IMO the sprint "win" (which his ride height was even lower than the GP) should be stripped. It's amazing how often this guy gets caught cheating or attempting to cheat but I guess if you cant actually beat them you can attempt to do this or you know, cut a bunch of corners and hope you don't get a penalty for it (queue the money the FIA got from MB for all those years).

Fact of the matter is, it's a very steep uphill battle in any championship and while Lec is strong I don't think he's currently strong than Max, Nor, Pia, or Rus. Ham is definitely not stronger than Max, Nor, Pia, Rus, or Lec. Ham might be able to beat Kimi but that's a big if. Ham has never had to actually compete or win against opposition this strong or in these numbers. He will need to outscore legitimately 4 or 5 drivers and I just don't see that happening given his pedigree.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by Artemis

The triple-header Suzuka, Bahrain and Jeddah ?

"Give the guy a chance - Gary Anderson
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/s...w-our-verdict/
We all know that being Verstappen's team-mate is no walk in the park, but Lawson seems to be just that bit too far off Verstappen's pace for it to be just the fact that Max is a demigod.
If the decision was down to me I would be heading back to Milton Keynes, having an in-depth debrief with Lawson about his problems, comparing his driving to Max's and then putting him in the simulator - which would be initially set up for Suzuka, a track he knows well, then Bahrain, which he also knows from pre-season testing, and Jeddah, which he needs to learn.
Then I would wait until after those next three races to allow him to put into practice what he should have learned from that intensive simulator programme. After that, then I'd make a judgement on his future.
I think putting Tsunoda or Isack Hadjar in a Red Bull now would be wrong for both teams and all three drivers concerned. I don't think anyone would come out with Dr Helmut Marko giving them an A* for their efforts.
Red Bull gave the guy a chance. Now back that up and actually give the guy a chance."

I don't think anyone wants LAW to fail or cut his opportunity short, but if Red Bull isn't going to engineer or develop a car that doesn't favour Max, the second driver is always going to be on the hot seat. Unless LAW shows some improvement, he's likely not going to succeed and you might as well let Yuki try his hand at it.

The problem isn't that Red Bull can't develop talent, the problem is you have Max in the other seat that you're developing a car towards so unless you can find another talent like him for the second seat, driver number 2 is likely going to fail. The problem Red Bull has now is they don't really have a championship winning car for Max to win in and you don't have another driver to at least win Constructors Championship so in some ways, Red Bull pretty much created their own downfall.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

All we have is the time sheet on Lawson but we don't know the specific areas in where he's struggling but Red Bull should definitely set a deadline or time table for improvement. If Lawson doesn't show much improvement, swap him with Yuki.

The doubt whether or not Yuki will succeed at Red Bull in the second seat is almost irrelevant, he deserves the opportunity to drive for one of the top 4 teams and deserves to know if he can take the next steps for his career. Red Bull would also benefit knowing where they stand with their driver program whether it's junior or at VCARB. The start of this season should be very telling to Red Bull that you can't throw away WCC and just focus on one driver and go through drivers for the second seat like it's no big deal.

The data on the previous page essentially synthesizes that Law is struggling in every area compared to Max - low speed, medium speed, high speed, braking, etc. I think your general fan might not understand how difficult it is to drive a RB car, especially those Newey designed where the front is so sharp it's like driving on a Katana blade and few would be able to tame it let alone drive it, let alone win the record breaking amount of races Max has, which all seem easy, but that is just the extreme level of talent he brings that maybe only a few in F1's history could - and certainly no one in F1 today.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

The data on the previous page essentially synthesizes that Law is struggling in every area compared to Max - low speed, medium speed, high speed, braking, etc. I think your general fan might not understand how difficult it is to drive a RB car, especially those Newey designed where the front is so sharp it's like driving on a Katana blade and few would be able to tame it let alone drive it, let alone win the record breaking amount of races Max has, which all seem easy, but that is just the extreme level of talent he brings that maybe only a few in F1's history could - and certainly no one in F1 today.

You're just enforcing the point that with LAW's current skill set, he's likely not going to improve much, if at all and if it's even worth giving him an entire season.

Red Bull ultimately has to decide what they want, focus on Max and Drivers Championships or play the team game because right now, they have neither and we're far away from the Vettel/Webber days where you had two very competent drivers and a very competent car.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

You're just enforcing the point that with LAW's current skill set, he's likely not going to improve much, if at all and if it's even worth giving him an entire season.

Red Bull ultimately has to decide what they want, focus on Max and Drivers Championships or play the team game because right now, they have neither and we're far away from the Vettel/Webber days where you had two very competent drivers with a very competent car.

I think Law got thrown into the lion's den (no pun intended) and having to drive a car that for most is not drivable won't help him learn. I know we can say he's not a rookie, but for all intents and purposes, he is a rookie. I don't think they should write him off, but IMO Tsu has shown he is one of the better drivers in F1, though, often not getting much credit for his pace. Law learning in the RacingBull makes more sense for his development. None of these guys are Max being able to just jump into an F1 and look like they've been doing it for years. Kimi at 18+ isnt even as capable as Max was at 17+ - and Kimi has been impressive.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by G30M

giving the guy a chance means giving him a car that he can learn to drive. not throwing someone into the deep end and yell "swim".
in case you didn't realise in FP3 in Australia Liam's car was in the garage for over 50 mins. in the only FP in Shanghai Liam's car was in the garage for over 50 mins.
He's never driven a RB, and he's never driven in Australia nor Shanghai.
the media all over the planet is now all over him like a pack of wolves.
the best way to protect him is to remove him from the limelight and pressure of driving the RB. it's a lottery keeping him in the RB for the triple header. if he succeeds, then great (but Perez could not do that). if he fails his career is over. at least swapping now we won't know if he can tame it but that gives him a chance for a fresh start.
not my decision of course, and I'm a spectator watching to see how this plays out.

Thrown into the deep end and yelled at to swim:

• May 5, 2016: Red Bull Racing announces Verstappen (18 years) replacing Kvyat from the Spanish GP onwards + Kvyat returning to Toro Rosso;
• May 14, 2016: Verstappen P4 in the Spanish GP qualies (also P4 in FP3);
• May 15, 2016: Verstappen P1 in the Spanish GP (youngest F1 winner ever), trailed by Räikkönen (Ferrari - 1 WDC) and Vettel (Ferrari - 4 WDC);
• the rest: history.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

As I said above, if you cheat as badly as Ham did and can only manage 6th it's a bigger problem. The problem with their car, indexing just on that aspect, is they designed it to ride so low that the best performance will only come with illegal floor wear. The result is raising the ride height and losing performance. IMO the sprint "win" (which his ride height was even lower than the GP) should be stripped. It's amazing how often this guy gets caught cheating or attempting to cheat but I guess if you cant actually beat them you can attempt to do this or you know, cut a bunch of corners and hope you don't get a penalty for it (queue the money the FIA got from MB for all those years).

Fact of the matter is, it's a very steep uphill battle in any championship and while Lec is strong I don't think he's currently strong than Max, Nor, Pia, or Rus. Ham is definitely not stronger than Max, Nor, Pia, Rus, or Lec. Ham might be able to beat Kimi but that's a big if. Ham has never had to actually compete or win against opposition this strong or in these numbers. He will need to outscore legitimately 4 or 5 drivers and I just don't see that happening given his pedigree.

I don't think anyone was cheating in this instance. HAM and LEC aren't responsible for ride height, weight or fuel load. Ferrari were living on the edge and got busted plain and simple.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Thrown into the deep end and yelled at to swim:

• May 5, 2016: Red Bull Racing announces Verstappen (18 years) replacing Kvyat from the Spanish GP onwards + Kvyat returning to Toro Rosso;
• May 14, 2016: Verstappen P4 in the Spanish GP qualies (also P4 in FP3);
• May 15, 2016: Verstappen P1 in the Spanish GP (youngest F1 winner ever), trailed by Räikkönen (Ferrari - 1 WDC) and Vettel (Ferrari - 4 WDC);
• the rest: history.

where in your post does it say Lawson (or any other normal F1 driver)? Verstappen is not your normal F1 driver. Perez had 2 years in the car and he couldn't drive it. Lawson didn't even get FP sessions on the tracks he's never driven in a car he's never driven in competition trim.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

I don't think anyone was cheating in this instance. HAM and LEC aren't responsible for ride height, weight or fuel load. Ferrari were living on the edge and got busted plain and simple.

Im not sure I buy that since drivers do have say on the setup - they dont just allow engineers to tell them what the setup is and then have to deal with it. They saw the data during the sprint, and they knew the car was too low during it, so they raised the height for the GP in hopes to not wear it. We can get into semantics about what is/isnt cheating, but it's tantamount to cheating hence why it is illegal. Just a 5mm drop can result in 10% more downforce, and we know that this equates to monumental performance gain which is why there is a regulation there to stop teams from just dropping the car as low as it can go. I can guarantee if Max got caught with a worn floor plank, "cheat" would be plastered all over every British tabloid and Crofty and Kravitz would never shut up about it.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by c1pher

If true this is awesome.

Ralf Schumacher almost swears it's a certainty.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by G30M

where in your post does it say Lawson (or any other normal F1 driver)? Verstappen is not your normal F1 driver. Perez had 2 years in the car and he couldn't drive it. Lawson didn't even get FP sessions on the tracks he's never driven in a car he's never driven in competition trim.

What happened to Perez in 2024, illustrated that the latest RBR car is a very tricky piece of machinery to drive. The whole paddock including Lawson knew about this. Lawson was determined to get Perez his RBR seat. He managed to get it, much to disbelief of both Perez and Tsunoda. Lawson disrespected Perez and Tsunoda (the first one by flipping the bird on track at his Mexico home GP - the second one by talking smack about him). Hubris. F1 WDC Jacques Villeneuve: "His attitude is very strange, though. He's very arrogant for someone with such little experience." Crash landing at RBR: you got the car, now you're gonna drive it.

And it ain't over yet. Now also a brutal scenario surfaced in Spanish press: Lawson demoted to the position of reserve driver. Tsunoda promoted to RBR. Colapinto (reserve driver at Alpine) promoted to Racing Bulls. Motorsport.com Spain sources suggest a deal in the making. Helmut Marko was seen in Alpine's hospitality in Shanghai on Sunday "and it wasn't to taste French coffee". Ugly mess if RBR does that.

F1 is a ruthless business.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Ralf Schumacher almost swears it's a certainty.

but how does he know?

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Ugly mess if RBR does that.

F1 is a ruthless business.

meritocracy is the right way to do things. unfortunately they hung on to Ricciardo for years when they shouldn't have. now they want to sack a rookie after 2 races?

let's see. might depend on the wordings in Lawson's contract (and Colapinto's release clauses)