[G30M]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Im not sure I buy that since drivers do have say on the setup - they dont just allow engineers to tell them what the setup is and then have to deal with it. They saw the data during the sprint, and they knew the car was too low during it, so they raised the height for the GP in hopes to not wear it. We can get into semantics about what is/isnt cheating, but it's tantamount to cheating hence why it is illegal. Just a 5mm drop can result in 10% more downforce, and we know that this equates to monumental performance gain which is why there is a regulation there to stop teams from just dropping the car as low as it can go. I can guarantee if Max got caught with a worn floor plank, "cheat" would be plastered all over every British tabloid and Crofty and Kravitz would never shut up about it.

errr ... how were Ferrari supposed to know it would wear more 0.5mm more than the required thickness, and how were they supposed to know they would use 250g more of each tire? Charles car didn't wear the plank and he was faster, Hamilton's car didn't wear the tires (though he was slower). not sure how that's cheating.

and they knew they were going to get checked, it's not like they poured a litre of coke into the car to add the 1kg or used some metal in the wood to stop it wearing.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by G30M

but how does he know?

Uses his own intuition of what's likely to happen.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by G30M

errr ... how were Ferrari supposed to know it would wear more 0.5mm more than the required thickness, and how were they supposed to know they would use 250g more of each tire? Charles car didn't wear the plank and he was faster, Hamilton's car didn't wear the tires (though he was slower). not sure how that's cheating.

and they knew they were going to get checked, it's not like they poured a litre of coke into the car to add the 1kg or used some metal in the wood to stop it wearing.

I have to chalk the floor plank down to setups. They raised the ride height going into the GP for Ham's car - why would you do that knowing these cars want to be as low as possibly to create the most downforce? I can only guess it's because they knew the wear in the sprint was great than anticipated leading to the caution and increased ride height, only they didnt raise it much because they know theyd have lost even more performance meaning 6th place with a legal ride height might have turned into 10th or worse. It's not like DSQs happen often for floor plank wear, but there is a common denominator when it comes to driver.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Ferrari doing just Ferrari things, but once they iron out the operations issues they are going to gap the grid.

Mate , have you ever been to Italy ?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Love the optimism but there's a reason for #FerrariThings

They just can't get the small things right

Even when they do Lady Luck puts the smackdown on them

But Lewis is looking good, sounding good and driving good

LEW wants that Ferrari comes with a new (road car) model ..

With the type name : The F44 (!)

[Rono63]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Thrown into the deep end and yelled at to swim:
May 5, 2016: Red Bull Racing announces Verstappen (18 years) replacing Kvyat from the Spanish GP onwards + Kvyat returning to Toro Rosso;
May 14, 2016: Verstappen P4 in the Spanish GP qualies (also P4 in FP3);
May 15, 2016: Verstappen P1 in the Spanish GP (youngest F1 winner ever), trailed by Räikkönen (Ferrari - 1 WDC) and Vettel (Ferrari - 4 WDC);
the rest: history.
Attachment 3694872

It was quite the accomplishment but to be fair Ham took out Rosberg. They were P1 and P2 at the time. So you can say Ham gave Max his first win. He is probably still kicking himself over helping Max.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Artemis

i find it hilarious that such an in depth analysis yet this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

commencement of braking is at the top of the graph not the bottom, both times he said early braking, the first he braked the same time as Max, see the top. second time braked the same as Max again, see the top. early braking happened elsewhere further along.

here's another analysis, not sure if he knows what he's talking about but another punter doing his thing

[Davil]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I have to chalk the floor plank down to setups. They raised the ride height going into the GP for Ham's car - why would you do that knowing these cars want to be as low as possibly to create the most downforce? I can only guess it's because they knew the wear in the sprint was great than anticipated leading to the caution and increased ride height, only they didnt raise it much because they know theyd have lost even more performance meaning 6th place with a legal ride height might have turned into 10th or worse. It's not like DSQs happen often for floor plank wear, but there is a common denominator when it comes to driver.

The ride was raised due to increased fuel load. Fuel weighs a lot. Less fuel is used in the sprint race because… drumroll… it’s a sprint and you don’t need so much.

Lewis also had other changes to his car for the race which he now realises was a mistake.

[M5Rick]

Floor planks were brought in as a safety measure after the deaths of A.Senna and R.Ratzenberger in 1994 at the San Marino GP.
The planks used to be a composite made of beechwood strengthened with resin but to save the Amazon forest it is now called permaGlass, glass reinforced plastic.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Rono63

It was quite the accomplishment but to be fair Ham took out Rosberg. They were P1 and P2 at the time. So you can say Ham gave Max his first win. He is probably still kicking himself over helping Max.

I do understand your point. But let's put things into perspective.

2016 Spanish GP: 22 drivers - 66 laps. Lap 1 - Turn 3: Hamilton and Rosberg DNF with their Mercedes rocket ships by crashing into each other. Still 65 laps to go. Hamilton neither "gave" Verstappen the race win nor "helped" him winning the race. No, Hamilton and Rosberg merely facilitated the other 20 F1 drivers of the grid - including Räikkönen and Vettel (Ferrari) - to win the 2016 Spanish GP. Youngest kid on the block was Verstappen: 18 years + maiden race in a Red Bull Racing car (freshly promoted to RBR - lots of media attention). 65 laps later, he won, in a car he had barely driven. Räikkönen P2 and Vettel P3.

Although the stewards considered the Hamilton-Rosberg crash a racing accident (no further action: decision here), internally, Niki Lauda told Hamilton that he deemed him predominantly at fault for the crash ("it's more Lewis's fault than Nico's fault"). According to Lauda, Hamilton disagreed and questioned why he criticized him. Lauda explained his point of view to him.

F1 history is loaded with DNF stories, "would have", "should have". What matters for WDC/WCC points, is who makes it to the chequered flag first (without track postion penalty/DSQ and even if track positions between team mates are swapped further to team orders). Three examples.

• 1988 Monaco GP: 78 laps. Senna (P1) leads the race, about 55 seconds ahead of Prost (P2). Team boss Ron Dennis urges Senna to slow down to ensure a 1-2 race result. Senna crashes at Portier in lap 66. DNF. Prost wins the race.
  Did Senna "give" Prost the race win ? No. Prost passed the chequered flag as P1 - Senna DNF'd (but his performance during qualies and the GP remains intergalactic in F1 history);
• 2018 Brazilian GP: 71 laps. Ocon (P14) clumsily tries to unlap himself in lap 44 and crashes into the side of Verstappen (P1) in Turn 2: a lapped driver crashes into the race leader. Hamilton (P2) passes stricken Verstappen (spun off track - damaged floor). Ocon got a 10 second Stop and Go penalty. Hamilton wins the race.
  Did Verstappen "give" Hamilton the race win ? No. Hamilton passed the chequered flag as P1 - Verstappen finished P2 (and also had a post-race altercation with Ocon in the paddock);
• 2021 Azerbaijan GP: 51 laps. Verstappen (P1) leads the race ahead of Perez (P2) and Hamilton (P3). Fastest lap at lap 44. He DNF's at lap 46 due to a tire puncture catapulting him into the barriers at full speed. Red flag.
  Did Verstappen "give" Perez or Hamilton the race win ? No. Perez passed the chequered flag as P1 - Hamilton finished P16 after clumsily locking up at restart ("magic button" issue) - Verstappen DNF'd.
  Hypotheticals: without the tire puncture, Verstappen very likely would have gotten 26 points (25 + 1 FL point) and Hamilton 15 or 18 points (very likely P3 or P2). They both left the race with 0 points. The points difference would have mattered for the 2021 WDC. And let's not start again about how gained and lost 2021 WDC/WCC points at Silverstone 2021 and Michael Masi antics mattered too.

F1 1988 Monaco GP - Qualies results: Senna (P1 - McLaren Honda) 1.427s clear of Prost (P2 - McLaren Honda), 2.687s clear of Berger (P3 - Ferrari) and 3.299s clear of Alboreto (P4 - Ferrari):


Based on stellar performance during qualies and the GP, Senna deserved the GP race win; but he DNF'd - "would have", "should have" doesn't count for WDC/WCC points and race victories statistics:

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Ralf Schumacher almost swears it's a certainty.

Originally Posted by G30M

but how does he know?

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Uses his own intuition of what's likely to happen.

Ralf S. : Everyone in the paddock knows it . A few hours later it was confirmed by Sky.
https://sport.sky.de/formel1/artikel...13334425/35311

Helmut Marko confirmed an emergency meeting: "Speaking to Sky Germany after the Chinese Grand Prix, Red Bull advisor Helmut Marko confirmed that Lawson’s performance is concerning enough to warrant serious conversation."
https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bu...ese-grand-prix

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Already decided?

MAX :

A driver change won't solve our problems, but improving the car will help us all (!)

I think that nailed it completely...

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

MAX :

A driver change won't solve our problems, but improving the car will help us all (!)

I think that nailed it completely...

Then Wache better get on it, things should be closer at Japan with the virtually closed rear wing gaps and those sculpted brake drums to keep tires cooler shouldn't be too difficult for RBR to upgrade.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Love the optimism but there's a reason for #FerrariThings

They just can't get the small things right

Even when they do Lady Luck puts the smackdown on them

But Lewis is looking good, sounding good and driving good

They are just a race or two from being a more fine tuned machine. Lewis and Charles are better drivers than Lando and Oscar, in comparable cars I think they will win.

And from what Fred and Charles have said, the cars are capable McLaren fighters, it's just bad strategy and/or unfortunate accidents have slowed them down.

I have Lewis winning it all this year, after a few struggles.

[3798j]

.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Davil

The ride was raised due to increased fuel load. Fuel weighs a lot. Less fuel is used in the sprint race because… drumroll… it’s a sprint and you don’t need so much.

Lewis also had other changes to his car for the race which he now realises was a mistake.

Yes of course the full fuel load for 58 laps vs 19 is different but they could have raised it more but they’d have lost even more performance, similar to Australia where they were nowhere. It would have been the same here - legal floor wear for the GP would have equated to maybe a P10-P12 finish. I guess the gamble is, ride low and hope you don’t get caught vs raising and not scoring any points. Either way they ended up with no points and absolutely looks bad.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

They are just a race or two from being a more fine tuned machine. Lewis and Charles are better drivers than Lando and Oscar, in comparable cars I think they will win.

And from what Fred and Charles have said, the cars are capable McLaren fighters, it's just bad strategy and/or unfortunate accidents have slowed them down.

I have Lewis winning it all this year, after a few struggles.

Let’s bet on this - how about $10,000? I’d wager ham will not win the WDC. We can have the money held until the season is over and winner takes all. He’s going to need to beat at least 5 other drivers who are better than him. Don’t see that happening when he’s never done it before.

[3798j]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Let’s bet on this - how about $10,000? I’d wager ham will not win the WDC. We can have the money held until the season is over and winner takes all. He’s going to need to beat at least 5 other drivers who are better than him. Don’t see that happening when he’s never done it before.

AmuroRay won't because it's a stupid bet. Any of the betting services will take just $500 on Hamilton to pay $10,000.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by 3798j

AmuroRay won't because it's a stupid bet. Any of the betting services will take just $500 on Hamilton to pay $10,000.

You're right, it is a stupid bet. But he seems awfully confident it can/will happen. So fair enough of HeelToeShift to propose it.

As he mentioned, he needs to beat drivers better then him now. Including his own teammate, in the same car... He's not the Lewis of pre-2021 anymore. He's old now, and not at the same level. Yes, he's still good, and will still have glimpses of what he used to be - this past Saturday was a good example of that, along with a handful of his races over 2022-2024. But both his consistency and speed isn't what it used to be. He doesn't even drive the same way as he used to when he was dominate in the Mercedes pre-2021, and his McLaren days.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Let’s bet on this - how about $10,000? I’d wager ham will not win the WDC. We can have the money held until the season is over and winner takes all. He’s going to need to beat at least 5 other drivers who are better than him. Don’t see that happening when he’s never done it before.

I don't bet but did see something funny after NFL Fantasy Football was over this year. I was eating dinner with my wife downtown and saw a nearly naked man wearing a diaper carrying a sign. Then we saw people laughing and taking pictures with him. We had to see for ourselves when we left!!! His sign said, "I SUCK AT FANTASY FOOTBALL". Turns out he was dead last in his league and that was the punishment

Great guy, he didn't welch and made the best of it

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by tsk94

You're right, it is a stupid bet. But he seems awfully confident it can/will happen. So fair enough of HeelToeShift to propose it.

As he mentioned, he needs to beat drivers better then him now. Including his own teammate, in the same car... He's not the Lewis of pre-2021 anymore. He's old now, and not at the same level. Yes, he's still good, and will still have glimpses of what he used to be - this past Saturday was a good example of that, along with a handful of his races over 2022-2024. But both his consistency and speed isn't what it used to be. He doesn't even drive the same way as he used to when he was dominate in the Mercedes pre-2021, and his McLaren days.

Exactly why I proposed since the hubris around it from him is off the charts. Ham has never really had to to beat anyone but a teammate (who weee awful and he still lost to Ros LOL) in cars so fast they were really the only two racing for wins. Once he actually had to best a formidable opponent he blew it (2021) and got humiliated in the season thereafter. Now that there is a young group of talent - Max, Alec, Nor, Pia, Rus, and several others (though they don’t have decent cars).

[Artemis]

Tsunoda replaces Lawson.

Confirmed this evening by the Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf (whose F1 journalists have very close ties with the Verstappens).
https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/16267...an-liam-lawson

Evening headlines:
"Analysis by Erik van Haren: Right now it appears that Max Verstappen definitely does not decide everything at chaotic Red Bull"
"The decision has been taken [bullet through the church]: Yuki Tsunoda new team mate of Max Verstappen at the expense of Liam Lawson"

And next to a picture of Liam Lawson, De Telegraaf noted:
"Already after two races, Liam Lawson is definitively sidelined by Red Bull Racing. From the Japanese Grand Prix onwards, Yuki Tsunoda is the new team mate of Max Verstappen."
"Liam Lawson has lost his spot."