[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

You can't contain it safely within a vehicle. It's not predictable, so why bother.

We are 18 months away from 200 mile battery packs so moreover who cares.

Because battery packs are terrible. They are terrible for the environment and have awful energy density. You can only practically use less than 75% of the available charge(I forget, I think it's like 60%) or they will prematurely fail. They must be cooled, introducing additional limitations and hardware. And they take forever to charge, even at higher voltage / amperge. They are merely a bridge to better sources of mobile electrical power. Hydrogen fuel cells are not perfect, but they are a better direction to go. The future is not batteries.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

Elon musk says hydrogen is ridiculous

Musk is correct !

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Because battery packs are terrible. They are terrible for the environment and have awful energy density. You can only practically use less than 75% of the available charge(I forget, I think it's like 60%) or they will prematurely fail. They must be cooled, introducing additional limitations and hardware. And they take forever to charge, even at higher voltage / amperge. They are merely a bridge to better sources of mobile electrical power. Hydrogen fuel cells are not perfect, but they are a better direction to go. The future is not batteries.

The future is 1000 mile batteries packs that run on water. Don't believe me look it up.

Steam powered once again.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

The future is 1000 mile batteries packs that run on water. Don't believe me look it up.

Steam powered once again.

Water is not an energy source. It is, at best, a component of an electrochemical process; usually as an electrolyte. There has to be another energy source though, because H2O is a stable molecule.

I have a feeling that you're probably referring to the Phinergy battery, which does not "run on water". In the Phinergy air-metal battery, the anode is aluminum, and the cathode is oxygen. The water acts as an electrolyte, which means the reaction can't occur without water, but water is not the source of the energy; aluminum and oxygen are.

Phinergy introduced their battery back at the beginning of 2013, but have yet to bring anything to market. Commentary I've read by chemists express concerns over the deterioration of the anode in an aluminum based chemical reaction because of the extremely hard nature of Al2O3. Once formed on the surface of the aluminum, it has a tendency to prevent further reaction. An obvious problem for chemical engineers to solve, but not necessarily a simple one.

[itachi_d]

Those halogen lights in this day and age....

[Duder]

i think i'm the only one that hates the look of that thing..... so ugly. i LOVE the i8 though. but this just looks terrible to me. the tech is cool though.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Water is not an energy source. It is, at best, a component of an electrochemical process; usually as an electrolyte. There has to be another energy source though, because H2O is a stable molecule.

I have a feeling that you're probably referring to the Phinergy battery, which does not "run on water". In the Phinergy air-metal battery, the anode is aluminum, and the cathode is oxygen. The water acts as an electrolyte, which means the reaction can't occur without water, but water is not the source of the energy; aluminum and oxygen are.

Phinergy introduced their battery back at the beginning of 2013, but have yet to bring anything to market. Commentary I've read by chemists express concerns over the deterioration of the anode in an aluminum based chemical reaction because of the extremely hard nature of Al2O3. Once formed on the surface of the aluminum, it has a tendency to prevent further reaction. An obvious problem for chemical engineers to solve, but not necessarily a simple one.

Water and aluminum correct.

There is one major car company that will be using these batteries soon enough.

[Ofmalik]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

Elon musk says hydrogen is ridiculous

Even better: "extremely silly" and an "incredibly dumb" alternative

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Water and aluminum correct.

There is one major car company that will be using these batteries soon enough.

A couple of things you'll want to note:

1) Alcoa is not a "major car company"; they are the world's third largest producer of aluminum.

2) Phinergy's design isn't rechargeable in the same way that a LiIon battery is. You have to physically service the battery by draining the electrolyte and recycling the aluminum plates. Physics dictate that this is a net negative energy equation, just like any battery, but recycling aluminum is very energy intensive.

Combine these these two factors and it's easy to see why Alcoa is the one backing the program, not a major automotive manufacturer. If they can get automotive manufacturers to buy this technology, the demand for aluminum and aluminum recycling will increase, and Alcoa will profit.

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket here, but water is the electrolyte in this process. The primary expendable is this type of battery is aluminum. Your original post claimed that these batteries run on water. They do not. They run on aluminum and water. Significant energy will be required to recycle the aluminum, not to mention the energy required to reverse the electrolytic reaction involving the water.

Watch the video again carefully. They're pitching this as a range extender for cars with a primary LiIon cell. Why do you think that is? Based on the energy requirements of recycling aluminum & electrolyte, I'd say that they have a net negative cost ratio compared to LiIon + grid power.

They must have discovered this early on, so they're hoping that they can enter the market as a secondary "fallback" power source, which fits their products strong points. Their air-metal battery can be kept in a suspended state almost indefinitely. You simply put the water in a reservoir and flood the battery only when you need it... then you take it in for an expensive service.

I'd give this technology a 30% chance of adoption at best.

[DCG]

It looks and sounds like a rejected i8. But I like the matte black paint job, or lack their of.

Fuggly and boring, it reminds me of the first 1987 RoboCop movie Ford Taurus that they used - the supposed car of the future, LOL.

BMW Designers you can do better then this.

[Eddien123]

Originally Posted by FilipMPower

I could check, but I think that it is injected directly into the cylinder, like petrol. But in such small amounts that it doesnt affect anything.

I think I saw a video of an S55 with WI and it shoots it into the intake to cool the air before entering the cylinder.

[ORIGIN M.]

While you clearly nailed it on the batteries and are highly articulate on the facts. Its not Alcoa i was referring to.

The car company is one that currently makes electric cars though.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by MikeRR

The new Ford GT got a turbo V6 you mean the Mustang GT350R I presume.
But yeah, I get your point but you can see this behavior in all makes.

You are obviously confused. The Mustang GT has a normally aspirated V8. While there is a turbo I4, and a normally aspirated V6 available in the new Mustang, neither are available in the GT.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Because battery packs are terrible. They are terrible for the environment and have awful energy density. You can only practically use less than 75% of the available charge(I forget, I think it's like 60%) or they will prematurely fail. They must be cooled, introducing additional limitations and hardware. And they take forever to charge, even at higher voltage / amperge. They are merely a bridge to better sources of mobile electrical power. Hydrogen fuel cells are not perfect, but they are a better direction to go. The future is not batteries.

Please, you are probably one of the people that claimed the Prius battery packs wouldn't last 10K too. Battery density has reached USEFUL levels. It still has a way to go to get to 500 miles, but you think that's impossible? I guess we'll never break the sound barrier either! Battery technology continues to improve, in terms of density and recycleability, I'm not too worried.

Until we can design a micro-fusion generator, batteries are the future.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

You are obviously confused. The Mustang GT has a normally aspirated V8. While there is a turbo I4, and a normally aspirated V6 available in the new Mustang, neither are available in the GT.

He's talking about the turbo V6 in the new Ford GT, which is not to be confused with the Ford Mustang GT.

2017 Ford GT:



Details: http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...-and-info-news

Power comes not from a supercharged V-8 as in the previous GT, but rather Ford’s next-generation twin-turbocharged 3.5-liter EcoBoost V-6 engine. We’re promised it will produce “more than 600 horsepower.” We have to imagine that the GT’s EcoBoost six likely shares at least some componentry with the new 3.5-liter EcoBoost V-6 in the 2017 F-150 Raptor, meaning it should have plenty of torque; we’d wager at least 500 lb-ft.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

He's talking about the turbo V6 in the new Ford GT, which is not to be confused with the Ford Mustang GT.

2017 Ford GT:



Details: http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...-and-info-news

Well color me confused.

[YWGT3]

This is what the i8 based hydrogen fuel prototype sounds like on the road:

[Chihuahua]

Awesome. Sounds like a tie-fighter from the empire strikes back. I know others don't, but I totally love it.