[nholmes]

I like to shoot at people that give me a sideways look.

I was standing my ground and defending myself, I felt my life was in danger.

[C5driver]

Originally Posted by Blksnowflake

My bad, In Texas you can and it's not murder. I always forget that California and NY are different countries with rules that favor criminals.

As bad as some of the laws may seem here, I would tend to agree that defending property should not result in the use of deadly force.

"Stuff" can be replaced. A life should never be taken over something as frivolous as a tv, a wallet, or a dent in your door panel.

Objectively reasonable force is defined in policy manuals as the force that is proportionate to the threat.

Should citizens be held to a lesser standard?

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Blksnowflake

My bad, In Texas you can and it's not murder. I always forget that California and NY are different countries with rules that favor criminals.

The criminal is the one that takes a life without theirs being threatened.

[kprocivic]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

The criminal is the one that takes a life without theirs being threatened.

I disagree there's always a gray area. By your definition a ton of these cops shooting unarmed people would all be criminals.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by kprocivic

I disagree there's always a gray area. By your definition a ton of these cops shooting unarmed people would all be criminals.

Watch the video, classic example of someone who is in a rage of fury after something has already gone down when his life is no longer in danger. If the driver had a gun, pulled it and shot the perp when the perp produced his gun, that would have been self defense. Notice how far away the perp is when he runs him down later with his vehicle. That is someone who can not control their anger/emotions/actions. That is in no way self defense:

http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2016/...vered-brooklyn

A 17-year-old Brooklyn teenager is missing an arm, and a 39-year-old man is facing attempted murder charges. This is the result of a horrific scene in New York on Friday that unfolded from a seemingly routine Craigslist transaction.

The 39-year-old man known only as "Phil" is a regular buyer and seller of sneakers on Craigslist. He agreed to a sale with the teenager and the pair met in the middle of the day on a busy street. It's here that things went wrong. Climbing into Phil's SUV, it's reported that the 17-year-old pulled a gun on the man, took the sneakers and walked off.

Rather than calling the police, Phil took things into his own hands. He did a quick u-turn and ran over the teenager attempting to walk away with the sneakers. The thief's arm was severed in the collision, but adrenaline caused him to run off, with one arm, before collapsing outside his house.

The boy is in stable condition and doctors plan to reattach his arm, while Phil is facing charges.

To some extent, you are right, some policemen are using lethal force when it's not justified, but in many cases, there is a confrontation and the assailant reaches for his waist in defiance of the order to keep hands up or lay down on the ground. These are the decisions we pay the policemen to make, and this is why they are highly trained in these areas, to make these decisions. This doesn't excuse the situations where they act improperly, but your example is apples and oranges.

If your life is threatened, you can always defend yourself.

If your property is threatened, taking someone's life is usually not justified. Maybe it's ok to you, but I find that to be some pretty sick stuff, and I wouldn't hesitate to take a life if I felt mine was threatened. I draw the line at things that can be replaced.

[335e92]

He should have his license suspended for shit like that. Small man syndrome.

[Blksnowflake]

Originally Posted by C5driver

As bad as some of the laws may seem here, I would tend to agree that defending property should not result in the use of deadly force.

"Stuff" can be replaced. A life should never be taken over something as frivolous as a tv, a wallet, or a dent in your door panel.

Objectively reasonable force is defined in policy manuals as the force that is proportionate to the threat.

Should citizens be held to a lesser standard?

Right assuming the guy just walks into your house through all your family and says, yeah sir no problem just stealing this tv/Rolex on the dresser and I'll be on my way everyone just go about your normal business or hey buddy relax I'm just busting this car window to get that cool backpack, if you would just keep walking I won't hurt you ok....

The problem is I'm not a mind reader. I have no idea why a man or men have entered my house or property illegally unannounced possibly at night....should I conversate with them and see if they just want to rob some valuables and then they will just go, and we can all go by our evening like normal....now I'll call the police right....
Negative, you come into my house unannounced especially with my family present, and you shall be introduced to an aggressive tactical response, and well within my rights to do so...in the beautiful country of Texas(I'm a native NYer by the way, escaped long time ago).
I have worked in some way or capacity with a firearm in my hand for over 17 years, and one of the reasons I moved to Texas was specifically because of their gun laws. I can even carry it fully open now more than ever.

Would I have shot that idiot in the G37 that day, almost positively not, but I may have been fully ready to while reading his body language, approach posture and hands as he walked up to my car. But I would have long before this aggressively de-escalated the situation. Flip me off, curse...roger, sorry sir I'm an idiot you're right, (now go away, thinking in my head)....
In my mind, I always have more to loose than the asshole in the street. There is a force continuum which you elude to, but that is immediately nullified in many cases by a person trespassing or violating personal space. And remember that this issue of proportionate force is very gray, what is proportional to me isn't to a 5' 130lbs female, so that creates more issues.....but not in Texas....you cross the line, I shoot....or "can" shoot. And believe me I've used my weapon before, I've had arguments and threats called out at me, they never knew I was armed. I'm not "proud" like that, have nothing to prove to an idiot. My pride and honor don't rest on an altercation in my daily life.
I'm no cowboy and would prefer at all costs that I don't use my weapon, It is a huge responsibility being a gun owner but sometimes there is a context for shoot first question later. I like it when the law supports this.

[C5driver]

Originally Posted by Blksnowflake

I'm no cowboy and would prefer at all costs that I don't use my weapon, It is a huge responsibility being a gun owner but sometimes there is a context for shoot first question later. I like it when the law supports this.

I understand your position.

My training has never supported that context and most likely never will.

[rcoccultwar]

Respectfully, sometimes the best weapon is just a shy smile; a quick unimposing glance or eye contact; and a tip of the hat or nod.

Sometimes wish we still lived around the Victorian era.

Even when a scantily? clad woman is rather aggressive, you shouldn't really touch her at all, respectfully.

[C5driver]

Originally Posted by rcowboy

Respectfully, sometimes the best weapon is just a shy smile; a quick unimposing glance or eye contact; and a tip of the hat or nod.

In my elementary school, that level of gayness would get you sent to the nurses office.

Originally Posted by rcowboy

Sometimes wish we still lived around the Victorian era.

You're not fond of two ply Charmin, are you?

[Blksnowflake]

Originally Posted by C5driver

I understand your position.

My training has never supported that context and most likely never will.

I agree. Although I do have many friends who were federal agents or cops who have been or seen those situations, thankfully as a civilian I've never been in that situation and do my very best to not find myself there.

I had a very bad experience with a female road rager. Long story short I eventually slowed and let her go, it was night and up ahead I could see a car coming up behind her in the fast lane really fast, seems she thought it was me and swerved to keep it from passing, the driver lost control as they both spun and slammed into the side rail causing a seven car pile up....I saw all this materialise in front of as I drove by thinking, that could have been me.
She was an absolute lunatic. I kept that lesson with me. I give road ragers the right of way provided I don't have to sacrifice my safety, just not worth it, I always say to myself...I have more to lose.

[Blksnowflake]

Originally Posted by C5driver

In my elementary school, that level of gayness would get you sent to the nurses office.




You're not fond of two ply Charmin, are you?

You're hilarious dude.

[C5driver]

Originally Posted by Blksnowflake

I agree. Although I do have many friends who were federal agents or cops who have been or seen those situations, thankfully as a civilian I've never been in that situation and do my very best to not find myself there.

Yeah, but criminal and civil liability is the great equalizer for both LE and civilians. While the court may hold LE to a higher standard, losing your YMB F80 or worse to some douchenozzle because of his poor life choices should factor into your decision making before kicking the living shit out of him.

Originally Posted by Blksnowflake

I had a very bad experience with a female road rager. Long story short I eventually slowed and let her go, it was night and up ahead I could see a car coming up behind her in the fast lane really fast, seems she thought it was me and swerved to keep it from passing, the driver lost control as they both spun and slammed into the side rail causing a seven car pile up....I saw all this materialise in front of as I drove by thinking, that could have been me.
She was an absolute lunatic. I kept that lesson with me. I give road ragers the right of way provided I don't have to sacrifice my safety, just not worth it, I always say to myself...I have more to lose.

QFT

[C5driver]

Originally Posted by Blksnowflake

You're hilarious dude.

Lincoln Elementary, Framingham, MA...aka gladiator school. Fun times

[dtwyim]

Maybe they are arguing over the VW diesel cheating software....

[Em135eye]

Oh the stereotypical US macho gun posturing at its best.

[C5driver]

Originally Posted by Em135eye

Oh the stereotypical US macho gun posturing at its best.

Yep...it's the same cowboy mentality that has us going around the world saving countries like England from Hitler and stuff

[Em135eye]

Originally Posted by C5driver

Yep...it's the same cowboy mentality that has us going around the world saving countries like England from Hitler and stuff

Wow, that was only 60 years ago.
Meanwhile in modern history...

165 school shootings since 2013.
294 mass shootings in 2015
12223 people killed in gun incidents in 2015.

Both 2015 figures didn't include December.

It baffles and horrifies the rest of the World how utterly blind the US is to this massive crisis.

[C5driver]

Originally Posted by Em135eye

Wow, that was only 60 years ago.
Meanwhile in modern history...

165 school shootings since 2013.
294 mass shootings in 2015
12223 people killed in gun incidents in 2015.

Both 2015 figures didn't include December.

It baffles and horrifies the rest of the World how utterly blind the US is to this massive crisis.

Kinda broad bushed, but let's not be the ugly American and impose your brand of simplistic opinions and just agree to disagree

[larryn]

Originally Posted by Em135eye

Oh the stereotypical US macho gun posturing at its best.

Luckily, it's a stereotype, and of the vocal few from the gun toting states. Makes you wonder about the bravado that strapping a hunk of metal on your side affords people.

[Em135eye]

Originally Posted by C5driver

Kinda broad bushed, but let's not be the ugly American and impose your brand of simplistic opinions and just agree to disagree

Disagree with the facts I just posted?
Sounds about right...

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Em135eye

Disagree with the facts I just posted?
Sounds about right...

Here are the stats - appalling

http://www.thetrace.org/2015/12/gun-...ce-stats-2015/