07-20-2018, 09:42 AM | #45 | ||||
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As I just explained, every manufacturer works within a costs structure. You can identify elements of any product that reveal cost-driven design and content decisions.
Tesla has made compromises with the Model 3 in order to deliver an electric sport sedan at a specific price to the consumer on a timeline that is in significantly ahead of the rest of the industry. Quote:
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The Bolt is built to cost just like any other product. It cannot match the Model 3 in performance nor in driving range. The reason for that is that it uses less capable drive components and battery which also cost less than those in the Model 3. That's where your "cost cutting" is for that particular product. Quote:
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The fact that Tesla does not build cars to your desired specification means you will have to wait for another manufacture to offer an EV to your liking. The costs of electric vehicle components are projected to decline steadily which will allow for less compromise in other areas of the product. If your interest in EVs is genuine and remains in place, eventually, you will be able to get an EV with all of the features you want. Perhaps at that point - the point where there is EV competition in the segments in which Tesla competes today - in order to survive, Tesla will be forced to adjust the content of their vehicles to match what competitors are able to deliver. You may then find their products appealing and choose to purchase one, or perhaps you will prefer a competitor's product instead. |
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07-20-2018, 09:53 AM | #46 |
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EVs are not taxing the grid. Most of them are charging during non peak hours anyways. (overnight) Charging a Tesla in general takes about the same kind of power as running an A/C unit.
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07-20-2018, 06:58 PM | #47 | |
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Plus there isn't any law or requirement that people charge during the evening hours. I'm sure there is plenty of EVs charging during peak load times.
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07-20-2018, 08:07 PM | #48 | |
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As for peak vs non-peak, I see plenty of EVs plugged in for charging in the parkade at my office. That's pretty much peak time. Fortunately, our electricity is hydro and doesn't generate GHGs (but is environmentally damaging in other ways). There are plenty of reasons to buy EVs and even Tesla's, but anyone who thinks they're saving the world is either deluded, uninformed, or drinking too much of Elon Musk's Kool-Aid. Plus, I saw a Model 3 in the wild today. Wow, is it ugly. The Model S is an attractive car, but the X and 3 are just complete misses from a style perspective. |
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07-20-2018, 10:53 PM | #49 | ||
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The idea of regulating car charging is silly. We don't regulate how people use their power. "Your house is too big." "You're using your A/C too much." "You don't need a 240v supply for your welder." Quote:
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07-21-2018, 12:34 AM | #50 |
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Is tesla still in business ? There tax credit just ran out so their cars now cost $7500 more
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07-21-2018, 07:14 AM | #52 | |
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I was very clear that I am waiting for another manufacturer to market an EV sport sedan. I believe that the topic of this thread is requesting opinions of other E90 Post members, which is what I offered. The current Model 3 at the trim level that Tesla produces does not beat the Bolt's range performance at the same price point, so that is a false comparison. I've stated in many threads on this topic for the past several years that the $35K price point is not by accident. $35K is where EVs begin to make economic sense as a purchase to the majority of the automotive market (mid point of the Bell curve). The Model 3 at its current offered trim level is $15K higher than that level. My opinion is Tesla never targeted the $35K price point and Chevrolet did with the Bolt. My opinion is that Tesla performed a bait and switch and never intended to produce a well-equipped Model 3 at a $35K price point. I've also stated over the years in many threads on the topic of the Model 3 that it is near impossible for Tesla to produce an EV at an MSRP of $35K because even with a tripling of scale in manufacturing it will have to get almost 50% of the manufacturing cost out of the car as compared to the Model S. I also stated that would take a complete re-think on the chassis design (as compared to the Model S) and a heavily automated assembly line. All of which costs billions of dollars in investment, while the Tesla car company swims in red ink. Henry Ford was able cut the price in half with the Model T, but it took a decade and Ford Motor Company had nearly 90% of the worldwide automotive market at one point in the early 1900's. Ford also achieved that feat with a massive technological development of the art of the automotive mass assembly process. Tesla is building cars in a very mature manufacturing product-assembly industry, with what one can believe he is using the best mass-assembly techniques of the day, which all other manufacturers use as well. In fact, Musk blamed most of his early Model 3 manufacturing woes on his assembly line suppliers, and based on the reports I read, has to rely on a far greater level of human-assembly process than originally planned, which adds cost to the assembly process.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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07-21-2018, 07:53 AM | #53 | |
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$3750 - Vehicles delivered January 1 to June 30, 2019 $1875 - Vehicles delivered July 1 to December 31, 2019 And Telsa puts the total price in big bold font and only the savings for federal and state tax credits, 5-year gas savings in a smaller grey font: |
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07-21-2018, 08:08 AM | #54 | ||||
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In the segments where Tesla competes with the Model 3 and Model S, their sales are high - higher than some manufacturers who sell ICE vehicles in those same segments. Just like we don’t measure any other manufacturers overall performance against the total market, and then penalize them for low sales in segments where they do not have product, it does not make any sense whatsoever to do that for Tesla either. Quote:
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In the meantime, the vehicles they offer today at the prices they offer them absolutely do, as point of fact by looking at the numbers, appeal to a significant number of people who shop in the segments in which those products fall. |
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07-21-2018, 09:05 AM | #55 | |
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One of the most considered points of owning an EV is the lower cost of fuel due to lower consumption by a more efficient conversion of stored energy to motion (vs. ICE). The entire automotive market is geared toward and legally-mandated for low fuel consumption and low emissions production. Gasoline and electricity are about the same cost per KW (12 cents per kWh). A review of the current EVs on the market shows that the majority are econoboxes (Bolt included). Lower income wage earners are the target consumer for econoboxes. Economically it makes no sense to buy a $50K car to save $1,000/year in fuel cost. A decent econobox can be well had for under $20K. $30K of gasoline buys hundreds of thousands of miles of travel. Most people, who have concern regarding their commuting costs, and who have to balance their budget allocations between transportation, food, housing, etc. realize this and buy low-price ICE vehicles, and why the EV percentage of the total automotive marketplace remains at 1%.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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07-21-2018, 09:43 AM | #56 | |
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My personal Model 3 fuel calculations assume best-case 75% efficient charging; and use my June 2018 electric cost of $0.17479 per kWh (delivered). I am also using the .233 kWh per mile consumption rate I've seen Model 3 owners report online. Result is ~$5.10 per 100 miles of driving.
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07-21-2018, 10:12 AM | #57 | |
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If you throw in the cost of charging on the public EV charging network the cost/mile even gets worse. The Model 3 doesn't get free Tesla network charging according to what I've read. People buy different cars for a myriad of reasons, but for me I throw in total cost of ownership as one of the variables and calculate the cost/mile. Most cars are in the $30 cents to $50 cents range. It then leaves a person with the decision on the quality of the experience they get for the per-mile price they pay.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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07-21-2018, 10:45 AM | #58 |
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No one is comparing a Model 3 to a Bolt. A Bolt is an overpriced Fit EV, a Model 3 is at least kind of appealing to people cross shopping the Germans.
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07-21-2018, 01:12 PM | #59 | ||
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It is undeniable that some subset of the population is willing, today, to shop outside the vehicle segment they would otherwise in order to get a vehicle with electric propulsion. Yet, it is neither Tesla’s long term intention to, nor does their long term success depend on being able to, woo the entire automotive buying population from its preferred basic transportation into boutique sport sedans and SUVs. Electric vehicles will ultimately come in a wide variety form factors and price points, many of which will be the same as those ICE vehicles come in today. Tesla will not cover all of them (though they may eventually cover the one the Bolt occupies) and neither will Chevrolet (though its parent, GM, essentially will I’d bet). A $35k Model 3 may or may not materialize. I suspect it will, but that is neither here nor there. I am sure that model appeals to more of the population than does the $49k model that current holds the entry level spot in the lineup. But its lack of availability does not change the fact that the long range, premium models available today represent a good value to someone whose priority is a performance sport sedan and who are prepared to make the switch to electric. Quote:
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07-21-2018, 02:48 PM | #60 |
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Not everything is completely binary, meaning, the two options aren't that people either care abt mileage for $$ reasons or they buy $75k cars. There are people who care abt mileage for reasons other than $. Some people care abt their "footprint" or whatever. There are plenty of wealthy people who drive Prius's who can afford Ferrari's. For people who only care abt $ and not efficiency, they could get a $10k used car that gets 20mpg and their cost of ownership would still be less than either a bolt or Tesla.
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07-21-2018, 03:15 PM | #61 | |
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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07-21-2018, 03:34 PM | #62 |
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I don't believe you can make such a definitive statement like "no one is comparing a Model 3 to a Bolt." You can see this comparison contained in YouTube videos alone.
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07-21-2018, 04:20 PM | #63 | |
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The whole idea that EVs are environmentally friendly is a hoax stirred in a nice big jug of kool-aid. Make no mistake, ICE engines are not environmentally friendly either, but the investment in EVs is not the cure ... not even close. We're in desperate need of a proper, peer reviewed, academic study on the environmental costs of EV versus ICE. From lithium mining to battery disposal to the environmental impact of charging loads. There are none and it's shocking to see governments buy into this without any idea whether they are making things better or worse. |
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07-21-2018, 05:25 PM | #64 | |
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Until the ion-engine commercial jet is invented and flight-qualified by the FAA, carbon fuel (i.e. gasoline) is going to be with us for the long-term future. We might as well figure out a way to bump the efficiency of burning it up to 80 - 90% or so. The automotive market is now tolerant of complex and expensive designs to gain fuel efficiency and reduced emissions. Politics will keep it from happening for carbon fuel.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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07-21-2018, 05:35 PM | #65 | |
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07-21-2018, 05:37 PM | #66 | ||
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