[footie]

I am amazed by this statement. You think the 335i to be below the S4 in terms of what???
......performance - clearly yes but not for the lack of output from the 335.
......handling - it shouldn't be but most lap times so far would suggest that the S4 is indeed much quicker.
......price - that really depends on the country in question.
......space - the S4 is slightly bigger which should help the 335 but doesn't.
......weight - again the S4 is a lot heavier but is still the better handler.
......driving pleasure - here is the one area where the 335 might have an advantage if previous history runs true and without additional tests is to hard to make an opinion of yet.

So on reflection your opinion might be correct, the S4 is a class above in almost every way. Though the funny thing is that the 335 has beaten both the old S4 and new S5 which both have more powerful V8 engines, so it maybe the switch to a smaller engine and the trick rear diff that has lifted the S4's performance beyond the S5 and 335.

[Robin_NL]

I think the new S4 is the best car[insert JC's voice]....in the world...this side of a Veyron.

j/k

[footie]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

I think the new S4 is the best car[insert JC's voice]....in the world...this side of a Veyron.

j/k

Actually I can hear the words [insert JM's voice]....cock.....it's the Fiat Panda.

[flipmde786]

I don't see what there is to be amazed about. The 335i should be compared to the A4 3.2, because they're of the same market "level" of car (and the A4 would get crushed, but that's Audi's problem, not BMW's).

Audi markets the 2.0T against the 328, C300, etc, as it is a fair competition. Then they just skip over the 3.2 and go to the S4 for the 335. It is unfair, in my opinion, to be comparing the 335i to the S4 as if the 335 is its true competitor. The only thing the S4 does is level the playing field with the engine, but all other aspects of performance (handling, braking, etc) gets skewed (or at least it should), as it is an S-line car.

A fair comparison would be taking the M3 and swapping the v8 for the tt-6, and running that against the S4 (and I think we know what would surely win then). And as I said, the fact that the 335 is still on par with the S4 is either a statement of the greatness of BMW engineering and/or that the S4 isn't good enough.

That's all I'm trying to say. So the S4 handling better, or being a little faster, is not an accomplishment, it should be expected. And on the same note, the fact that the 335 still hangs with the S4 is an accomplishment in itself. Frankly, I expected more from the S4.

[footie]

I just can't understand your logic or how you seem to think that the S4 and 335i aren't direct competitors and seem to believe that the A4 3.2L is the one it should be compared to. You also regard the 330i and A4 2.0L as direct competitors, another one which I am struggling to get my head round.

Look at spec for each model

Model :S4 - 335i - A4 3.2L
Output: 333hp - 306hp (325hp unofficially) - 265hp
Engine type : 3.0SC - 3.0TT - 3.2L
Weight: 1725kg - 1600kg - 1655kg
PTW: 208hp/T - 206hp/T (218hp/T) - 172hp/T

To me at least the model which is closest in PTW is the S4 with a figure only 2hp per tonne different if we stick to the belief that the 335i only puts out 306hp.....(right ) The A4 3.2L has 34hp per tonne less power than the 335i which amounts to approx. 16.5% less. Next let us look at the A4 2.0L vs 328i (now replaced by the 330i), the Audi kicks out only 211hp vs 272hp from the 330i, yeah that clearly is a perfectly matched comparison.

There is little point in magazines comparing different models if some people can't see that they are evenly match, but if you want to believe that you matching of models is right and BMW cars are clearly superior then I won't stop you but you are only kidding yourself with this belief, the rest of the world know which cars are the real competitors.

[Year's_End]

the answer is easy to see. they're not direct, one-on-one competitors. they can be compared, but it's just not close enough to be a true comparison.

people compare the C350 and 335i, despite the power difference. there have been tests comparing the C350 and A4. they're perceived as competitors, at least in the US.

the S brand originally competed with the M brand. the RS brand...well that just messed the order of things up.

basically, what i'm saying is that there's no clearly defined line. it's all blurry. see it as you will.

[footie]

I would agree that BMW originally positioned the M3 between the S4 and the RS4. Both B5 Audi had power outputs of 265hp and 380hp with the M3 ranging from 286hp and then 321hp. But when BMW brought out the E46 with it's 343hp someone in Audi thought it was a good idea to up the S4 to match and in a way it was the right move since the RS models only appeared near the end of the production cycle of the model.

But BMW repositioned the E9? M3 to compete with the RS and thus move it away from the S. When BMW did this they brought out the 335i which believe it or not must have been developed with the S4/5 in mind. And in fact in almost all tests it has done remarkably well against both the old S4 and the new S5, only now have Audi possibly gotten the better of it.

[flipmde786]

I understand what cars are performing well in the world, but thanks for your condescending attitude.

As for the US market, there is no 330i, there is the 328 with 230hp. Therefore it is the counterpart to the A4 2.0T. I understand the A4 3.2 doesn't match up powerwise with the 335, and that's Audi's fault. They should put the supercharged V6 or some variation of it into the standard A4, as they have with the A6. Only then can it evenly compete with the 335 in complete fairness. It also is no secret that MB is working on a direct engine V6 so that the C350 can compete better with the 335i. Should we then compare the C350 to the S4 too?

I also know that in the Euro market, the 330i exists. That's great, but that doesn't make the 335i a natural competitor to the S4. Perhaps there are some different perspectives due to what's available on the market in each region of the world, but I still don't see it as a fair comparison.

The 335i does not account for all the other enhancements that are made to the S-line by Quattro GmBH. I think you can see that. The 335i shares it's suspension and steering components with lower 3 series models, and the M3 has the enhancements.

The RS line, as Bimmer Loyalist said, blurred the lines. The 335i was NOT conceived with the S4/5 in mind, but with the Lexus IS350 in mind, and eventually the latest models of the Infiniti G sedan/coupe. You may contend that they do not care about the US market competitors, but the US market is the largest market for the 3 series AFAIK, so I see those cars to be the reason for the 335i. If you're gonna compare the 335i to the S4 just because of the motor, then go ahead and compare the Lexus and Infiniti too, just because of their similar output.

There's more to performance than just the engine, and there's more to a fair comparison than just the engine also. But see it as you wish.

[Big Windy]

Originally Posted by flipmde786

I understand what cars are performing well in the world, but thanks for your condescending attitude.

As for the US market, there is no 330i, there is the 328 with 230hp. Therefore it is the counterpart to the A4 2.0T. I understand the A4 3.2 doesn't match up powerwise with the 335, and that's Audi's fault. They should put the supercharged V6 or some variation of it into the standard A4, as they have with the A6. Only then can it evenly compete with the 335 in complete fairness. It also is no secret that MB is working on a direct engine V6 so that the C350 can compete better with the 335i. Should we then compare the C350 to the S4 too?

I also know that in the Euro market, the 330i exists. That's great, but that doesn't make the 335i a natural competitor to the S4. Perhaps there are some different perspectives due to what's available on the market in each region of the world, but I still don't see it as a fair comparison.

The 335i does not account for all the other enhancements that are made to the S-line by Quattro GmBH. I think you can see that. The 335i shares it's suspension and steering components with lower 3 series models, and the M3 has the enhancements.

The RS line, as Bimmer Loyalist said, blurred the lines. The 335i was NOT conceived with the S4/5 in mind, but with the Lexus IS350 in mind, and eventually the latest models of the Infiniti G sedan/coupe. You may contend that they do not care about the US market competitors, but the US market is the largest market for the 3 series AFAIK, so I see those cars to be the reason for the 335i. If you're gonna compare the 335i to the S4 just because of the motor, then go ahead and compare the Lexus and Infiniti too, just because of their similar output.

There's more to performance than just the engine, and there's more to a fair comparison than just the engine also. But see it as you wish.

so what do you recommend the standard is for making the comparison? because right now it just seems very arbitrary from your position. also keep in mind that audi and BMW are german automakers. claiming that the 330i cannot be used in a comparison because it does not come to the states is irrelevant.

[footie]

I don't want to correct you and make it sound too condescending but QuattroGmbH only supply the body kits for S-line and do none of the development work on anything other than the RS models, the R8 and the monster that is the Q7v12TDI.

I would like you thank you for correcting me about the 328i being the only model available Stateside, I thought you were just behind the times. But as BigWindy stated, just because the 330i isn't available over there doesn't mean it should be forgot about, in fact over here the 328 was drpped a few years ago. But let me list the respective models from each brand and which compete with each other.

A4 2.0 = 325i
A4 3.2l = 330i
S4 = 335i M/Sport

[flipmde786]

Originally Posted by Big Windy

so what do you recommend the standard is for making the comparison? because right now it just seems very arbitrary from your position. also keep in mind that audi and BMW are german automakers. claiming that the 330i cannot be used in a comparison because it does not come to the states is irrelevant.

Then why isn't it irrelevant that the 328 can't be used in a comparison because it does not exist in Europe?

I really don't get why nobody sees that an S-line car is akin to an M or an AMG, and isn't a direct competitor with a "standard" model car. Is it that hard to grasp what I've been trying to say?

Just forget it. Sorry I said anything.

[flipmde786]

Originally Posted by footie

I don't want to correct you and make it sound too condescending but QuattroGmbH only supply the body kits for S-line and do none of the development work on anything other than the RS models, the R8 and the monster that is the Q7v12TDI.

I would like you thank you for correcting me about the 328i being the only model available Stateside, I thought you were just behind the times. But as BigWindy stated, just because the 330i isn't available over there doesn't mean it should be forgot about, in fact over here the 328 was drpped a few years ago. But let me list the respective models from each brand and which compete with each other.

A4 2.0 = 325i
A4 3.2l = 330i
S4 = 335i M/Sport

Oh, I see (about what involvement Quattro GmBH has with the S4). Well then, I learned something, no hard feelings.

And I guess, like I said before, we have different views because of what's available in our markets. I forgot that the 325 is still available in Europe. But when you look at the US market, there's the 328, 335, and no M-sport pack for the 335. So I guess that creates this little discrepency in our perceptions..

[Big Windy]

Originally Posted by flipmde786

Then why isn't it irrelevant that the 328 can't be used in a comparison because it does not exist in Europe?

I really don't get why nobody sees that an S-line car is akin to an M or an AMG, and isn't a direct competitor with a "standard" model car. Is it that hard to grasp what I've been trying to say?

Just forget it. Sorry I said anything.

because there is a 325.

There is a difference between an "S" car and an S-line car. The S-line is a trim specification: "the scope of equipment includes customised sports suspension, alloy wheels, sports seats, sports steering wheel, S line logos and much more." An S-line car is not comparable to an M car at all. M cars are comparable to the cars which come from Quattro GmbH: RS.

I will agree that the lines are sometimes blurry, though.

[Year's_End]

maybe bmw will ditch the performance-hampering RFTs...cross your fingers.

[flipmde786]

Originally Posted by Big Windy

because there is a 325.

There is a difference between an "S" car and an S-line car. The S-line is a trim specification: "the scope of equipment includes customised sports suspension, alloy wheels, sports seats, sports steering wheel, S line logos and much more." An S-line car is not comparable to an M car at all. M cars are comparable to the cars which come from Quattro GmbH: RS.

I will agree that the lines are sometimes blurry, though.

Hah I was afraid someone would think I meant the simple S-line option package. When I said S-line I meant the S cars, as in S4, S5, etc. I thought the S cars had development by Quattro GmbH though.

[footie]

I can assure you that S models are not developed by QuattroGmbH, they are solely developed by Audi themselves. The one exception to this rule has been the Q7v12TDI but for obivous reasons, 500hp & 1000Nm in something which sits almost five feet tall and weighs 2.7ton, how they have got the thing to handle it's power and corner well at all is amazing.

[Big Windy]

Originally Posted by footie

I can assure you that S models are not developed by QuattroGmbH, they are solely developed by Audi themselves. The one exception to this rule has been the Q7v12TDI but for obivous reasons, 500hp & 1000Nm in something which sits almost five feet tall and weighs 2.7ton, how they have got the thing to handle it's power and corner well at all is amazing.

+1. Just to add, quattro designs all RS models and the R8 in addition to the Q7 that footie just mentioned. That Q7 TDI is supposed to to 0-60 in 5.5 sec!

[Hampi]

...actually, it is 0-62 in 5.5 sek .

[flipmde786]

How much more expensive is the S4 in Europe compared to the 335?

I have been thinking about my next car (not too seriously, just to pass time), and the S4 interested me, but I couldn't justify the substantially higher price (in the US).

[Greeney]

The S4 im guessing will start around 45-47K in the US.

[flipmde786]

Audi had a minisite on their website for a while, and it started at like $49700 or something. Then options made it well into the 50k range. I'm assuming it's not there anymore, as I can't find it anymore. Maybe they're done taking orders for now hah

[footie]

Originally Posted by flipmde786

Audi had a minisite on their website for a while, and it started at like $49700 or something. Then options made it well into the 50k range. I'm assuming it's not there anymore, as I can't find it anymore. Maybe they're done taking orders for now hah

Originally the talk from dealers was that the S4 would come to the market with a similar RRP of the old B7 S4 which was £36500 but when it actually arrived the price was a more affordable £34255, more standard spec at a greatly reduced price. So maybe Audi have dropped the micro site to readjust the RRP for the USA.

Maybe wishful thinking but we can but try.