[urbo73]

I agree that the GT2 is not for the faint of heart. If you are not used to driving 911s and used to their feel, then you'll have quite a hill to climb. If you ARE used to them, there isn't a faster car Porsche makes out there save the Carrera GT. But again, these are really insane cars meant for experienced drivers. Look at these times:

http://www.fastestlaps.com/track2.html

[JW-Tuning]

Originally Posted by Dragonman4

The S has a larger displacement engine, xenons instead of halogens standard, quad exhaust instead of dual, bigger rims, and I believe it's a little lower to the ground. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

i think they have xenons for both.

[gonzo]

While I am tossing these questions out can you inform me as to the difference between the TT S and TT? Is the TT S known as the X50?

Both of these are 03's.



996 Turbo X50In 2000, Porsche launched the Turbo version of the Type 996. Like the GT3, the new Turbo engine derived from the 911 GT1 engine and, like its predecessor, featured twin-turbos and now developed 420 PS (309 kW). Also like its predecessor the new Turbo was only available with all wheel drive. A 17,000 USD factory option, the X50 package, was available that boosted the engine output to a tidy 450 PS with 620 N·m (457 lbf·ft) of torque across a wide section of the power band. With the X50 package in place the car could make 0–100 km/h (0-62 mph) in 3.8 seconds.

[gonzo]

The Starbucks is kicking in...

If I am reading the data right a TT with the X50 package is the beast of beasts.

An 03 X50 car with an original sticker of 150K that now has 26,400 miles for $53,000 is one heck of a deal. I am not real crazy about the interior but could get over it.

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by JW-Tuning

i think they have xenons for both.

H7 halogens come standard on the C2 and HID lamps are standard on the C2S.

[gonzo]

^ stickpaws aka Porsche guru, I meant to ask my question above to you. Post #47.
Any info would be appreciated.

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by urbo73

I agree that the GT2 is not for the faint of heart. If you are not used to driving 911s and used to their feel, then you'll have quite a hill to climb. If you ARE used to them, there isn't a faster car Porsche makes out there save the Carrera GT. But again, these are really insane cars meant for experienced drivers. Look at these times:

http://www.fastestlaps.com/track2.html

Normturm was looking at the early 996 versions. The 997 versions are bringing in those times you posted. The 997 is a bit "easier" to drive. However, yeah, I totally agree that unless one is familiar with the driving dynamics of a rear engined car, they can very easily get themselves in trouble (although the 997 has enough nannies to help keep things less scary.)

Every once in a while (esp after a light rain) I'll see a 996 or 997 spun out in the McClure tunnel leading onto the PCH in Santa Monica. And some sad doctor or lawyer sitting on the side shaking his head, wishing he hadn't bought that damn sports car.

Originally Posted by gonzo

The Starbucks is kicking in...

If I am reading the data right a TT with the X50 package is the beast of beasts.

X50 is certainly the way to go if you're looking for fast. There's a lot of good mods for all the TTs (and GTs), so you could always "make" a X50. The option was available early on, but by summer 2004 builds, it came standard as the TT S. So, either early non S with X50 or a later S will do it. But you can always tack on that extra hp later with tuning on a TT.

That one has miles on it. I'd look for one first that has provenance that you can trace (that one looks like it comes from a non-Porsche specialist retailer??) over any options that you could easily put on later. If you want to go retail, try the specialists like Holt, Sloan, Truspeed, etc.. Otherwise check Rennlist and try to get one from an enthusiast and PCA member.

A lot of the later models (996, 997) were purchased by people with money who really didn't care about P-cars and just wanted fast and cool, imho.

The TT X50 is a fast car. Hopefully you have some place to drive it and the funds and patience to own it. But they are rewarding for their sheer power (torque!) and engine build. btw, Paul Frere's book describes the motor in detail with illustrations of the internals.

Don't know what's going on with these prices.... it's getting crazy. Some models are still holding strong and others are dropping like flies.

Just buy the car you really, really want. Be picky. Get the right color combo you like (think resale when it comes to color combos!!) And buy the model that makes sense to you and is practical. You want driving and ownership enjoyment not just the fastest.

Let us know if you get one. Sounds like you're getting ready to go for it.

[gonzo]

Thanks.

The blue pictured X50 is in Ft. Lauderdale...probably a cosmetic surgeons.
One owner. 26K is high miles on an 03 to you?

I am looking at older M5's but keep going back to what I have always wanted...

I want something not so everyday that you will see your twin car at every other stop light. Classic, fast and reliable. I actually prefer the hunt and capture of good used cars vs a brand new one. Very particular in the capture part.

Granted this was years ago before the lag issue was addressed. I had a 280z turbo that would boost up really abruptly and would get your attention in slick conditions.

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by gonzo

While I am tossing these questions out can you inform me as to the difference between the TT S and TT? Is the TT S known as the X50?

Both of these are 03's.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. The S has the extra 30 hp, the turbos of the GT and better intercoolers. ECU is set up different. You can always get that in aftermarket tuning. PCCB and 6-pot front brakes also on the S. PCCB is excellent but expensive to maintain/replace. You can always do brake up-grades, too. In general, all P-car brakes are super.

imho, if you're going to use this car on the track, you're going to be doing modifications anyway. In that case look for a strong motor and chassis. A ppi (with a leakdown, etc.) usually runs around $350 from a specialist (it's really mandatory on a purchase like this; these cars are expensive to fix.)

fwiw, I'll offer info the best I can but I'm certainly not an expert by a long shot. These cars have a lot of history and are complex. Only the factory seems to have the absolute correct info (and not even them sometimes )

I've owned a Carrera in some form or another since 1985. So that's my only background. But these cars will pull you in and get you involved.

I used to own a 1600, 2002tii, Bavaria, and a 330i. I love BMWs! (that's why I'm here )

[gonzo]

5 BMW's myself. e90 335 was the latest. I like the cars but need a change...I think.

Although not very practical this is one nice car. Pic above. My track is Sunday mornings when the rural streets are empty.
I could find enjoyment just staring at that car while drinking my Starbucks.

02 X50
27,000 miles
$69,000

*EVO GT700 HP KIT* Incredible, Immaculate, Fully Loaded, 1 Owner 02 Porsche 911 Turbo X50 Coupe with TECHART GT-S Body Kit in Arctic Silver Metallic and TECHART Formula GTS 19 Wheel exterior, and charcoal leather interior. Absolutely Gorgeous with only 27K miles, Brembo GTR Brakes, JRZ 3 way adjustable Suspension, Tequiment GT3 Seats and Roll Bar, and Fire Suppression Kit. Powerful 3.6L H6 Twin Turbo SEFI engine, 6 speed manual transmission and rear wheel drive conversion with only 27K miles. Carbon Fiber front bumper, side skirt, hood, rear spoiler and mirrors. Full Carbon Fiber Interior Trim, A/C, Cruise Control, Alpine Stereo with CD, Suede Headliner, Dual Front Airbags, Front Side Airbags,

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Thanks.

The blue pictured X50 is in Ft. Lauderdale...probably a cosmetic surgeons.
One owner. 26K is high miles on an 03 to you?

I am looking at older M5's but keep going back to what I have always wanted...

I want something not so everyday that you will see your twin car at every other stop light. Classic, fast and reliable. I actually prefer the hunt and capture of good used cars vs a brand new one. Very particular in the capture part.

Granted this was years ago before the lag issue was addressed. I had a 280z turbo that would boost up really abruptly and would get your attention in slick conditions.

Yep, be sure to get EXACTLY what you want. If you like the hunt and capture then you have the patience already. But do look at PCA, Rennlist, Pelican, for cars for sale by enthusiast owners.

26K on a 2003 is kinda high for a car like this. As an example my 13 year-old 993 C4S has less miles on it than that (by 1k ) It was owned by a 25 year member of PCA. I have every record on anything ever done to that car. Look at the mileage on Ferraris of the same period. The TT S isn't what I would call a daily driver. Low mileage, well maintained P-cars are out there.

"Reliable" is true, to an extent. It's not that they aren't reliable, but that they are very expensive to maintain. And you have to make sure you keep it up otherwise the car seems to get unhappy and starts to complain.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

Normturm was looking at the early 996 versions. The 997 versions are bringing in those times you posted. The 997 is a bit "easier" to drive. However, yeah, I totally agree that unless one is familiar with the driving dynamics of a rear engined car, they can very easily get themselves in trouble (although the 997 has enough nannies to help keep things less scary.)

Every once in a while (esp after a light rain) I'll see a 996 or 997 spun out in the McClure tunnel leading onto the PCH in Santa Monica. And some sad doctor or lawyer sitting on the side shaking his head, wishing he hadn't bought that damn sports car.

Yes, but my point was just that - too much power for most people to handle properly 996/997/etc. And where to push it? I've done my share of racing in SCCA and then track days with the PCA in various cars (Formula Fords, 911s, etc.) and have seen just about everything I can imagine (well I'm sure not, but have seen a lot). And I've seen that most people can't handle those cars at high speeds. Yeah the AWD of the Turbo helps a bit, but I wouldn't bet on that as something to save me. Coming to ANY 911 from any other car is an experience. To gonzo - be careful! AWD of the Turbo won't make things that much less dramatic. The thing is a beast when driven hard. I remember the early Turbos and the rear coming looser than the tile used on the tunnels of Boston's Big Dig

[gonzo]

The reliable part was kind of tongue and cheek. The thought of the monies and the car being in the shop on and off has my attention. Luckily I know an excellent mechanic. He is around 65 from Turkey. Old school guy that loves what he does and has great prices. My old 98 M3 vert visited him quite often.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Yes, but my point was just that - too much power for most people to handle properly. And where to push it? I've done my share of racing in SCCA and then track days with the PCA in various cars (Formula Fords, 911s, etc.) and have seen just about everything I can imagine (well I'm sure not, but have seen a lot). And I've seen that most people can't handle those cars at high speeds. Yeah the AWD of the Turbo helps a bit, but I wouldn't bet on that as something to save me. Coming to ANY 911 from any other car is an experience. To gonzo - be careful! AWD of the Turbo won't make things that much less dramatic. The thing is a beast when driven hard.

Oh, I know. I love adrenaline but hate hospitals. I am still 25 at heart but make decisions like these very carefully. Jeckyl and Hyde syndrom is what I am worried about with these cars....not the car itself but me in these cars.

I have almost flipped my MCS so this will require some soul searching.

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Yes, but my point was just that - too much power for most people to handle properly 996/997/etc. And where to push it? I've done my share of racing in SCCA and then track days with the PCA in various cars (Formula Fords, 911s, etc.) and have seen just about everything I can imagine (well I'm sure not, but have seen a lot). And I've seen that most people can't handle those cars at high speeds. Yeah the AWD of the Turbo helps a bit, but I wouldn't bet on that as something to save me. Coming to ANY 911 from any other car is an experience. To gonzo - be careful! AWD of the Turbo won't make things that much less dramatic. The thing is a beast when driven hard. I remember the early Turbos and the rear coming looser than the tile used on the tunnels of Boston's Big Dig

You're absolutely right, definitely a completely unique driving dynamic. You learn to properly use that go pedal and that's for sure. In an ideal world it would be mandatory that every buyer go through a PDE of some kind and learn first hand how you can easily get tossed into the trees

But the Cayman/Boxster solved all that...

What school did you go to for SCCA?

[OBI_agent]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

It's my second one. I just replaced my '97 C2S with this '96 C4S widebody. I was putting on the miles on the 2S and knew someone who wanted it. And I had my eye on this 4S for a while. btw, the prices on really good specimens of these cars are close to 2-3 year old 997 prices now.

It's not necessarily 'easy' to maintain, but really no different than any other good Euro sports car. They are pretty bulletproof. Air cooled with a dry sump (separate oil tank that feeds the engine for constant and even lubrication.)

There are known issues: SAI problems with carbon buildup. That means CEL will come on and makes emissions testing sometimes an issue. The main thing is the material of the valve guides, as in older BMWs. But some owners have never had the issue (driving hard keeps carbon accumulation down) in the lifetime of the car. Otherwise a head re-do is necessary ($7-9k)

Little weird things like the immobilizer (car alarm.) The car will lock up and shut down solid if you don't use the key fob correctly or battery in fob goes bad. Can leave you stranded (but won't happen if you have an extra fob or be sure to use it correctly.) There's a list of other odd things, but nothing that keeps people from not wanting these cars.

Repair, maintenance, and parts are expensive. (You're supposed to use only Porsche N rated and tested tires, e.g.) And you need to find an expert technician who knows what they are doing. The great thing is that there are lots of excellent techs, tuners, and race prep shops all over. And resources are excellent; lots of mods, tuning capabilities, etc.. And a great group of owners who share info. These cars are used a lot on the track, so there's always good resources and mechanics. Tons of FAQs on the net, etc..

Pretty soon I'm going to do a ROW 030 suspension with Bilsteins and a Fister Stage II exhaust on this one.

I know owners who have 100k plus on the odometer. They're built to last with proper care.

Most people own them as a second car (mine's not a daily driver.) So mileage is usually kept low. Most all 993 owners are serious and keep the car up. I think that's why their value has remained high too. I insure mine with a collector car insurance company with what's called an "agreed value coverage." That means replacement will always be at the value I said the car is worth. I don't have to worry about KBB prices, etc., when it comes to any claim.

These aren't fast cars at all in the modern day sense, but they are a really unique and satisfying driving experience. They feel like they've been carved out of one piece of steel; you feel every nuance of the car, the road, etc.. Very solid. The brakes are superb. And they have a classic look, imho.

p.s., they are also the last of the hand built 911s. Each specimen has slightly different driving characteristics (personalities)

Wow..that was quite a review.....I learned alot from it
For E.g:
I didnt know they were the last hand built 911's and I also didnt know about the 'collector's ' insurance.

Anyhow, my input would be that these small glitches like the security alarm or carburetor related problems aren't any biggies.
And as you said,the car's engine is surely almost bullet proof due to the great air cool with dry sump system used on it. And your really lucky that there are so many well known technicians in your area. But 7 to 9k for a head re-do is expensive but justified. They just dont make these engines anymore. BTW, if I own one over here, there private garages in my country would be ripping me off financially...

Hmm... might I recommend a engine swap next time the head's need to be done again? You can always put in a new 3.6 H6 from the 996 or 997's ....Anyway, I haven't researched on this engine swap so I dunno how much it will cost.

Anyway, thank you for your detailed review.And good luck with your mods and I hope your car last a long long time on and off the track....

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by OBI_agent

Wow..that was quite a review.....I learned alot from it
For E.g:
I didnt know they were the last hand built 911's and I also didnt know about the 'collector's ' insurance.

Anyhow, my input would be that these small glitches like the security alarm or carburetor related problems aren't any biggies.
And as you said,the car's engine is surely almost bullet proof due to the great air cool with dry sump system used on it. And your really lucky that there are so many well known technicians in your area. But 7 to 9k for a head re-do is expensive but justified. They just dont make these engines anymore. BTW, if I own one over here, there private garages in my country would be ripping me off financially...

Hmm... might I recommend a engine swap next time the head's need to be done again? You can always put in a new 3.6 H6 from the 996 or 997's ....Anyway, I haven't researched on this engine swap so I dunno how much it will cost.

Anyway, thank you for your detailed review.And good luck with your mods and I hope your car last a long long time on and off the track....

Thanks. I enjoy these cars (obviously ) And the 993s have lasted 11-14 years so far

The cars were approximately 85% hand built. There weren't that many produced globally (compared to other cars of the time.) Collectors insurance means that you prove you have another car as your daily, a secure garage, and low annual miles. Rates are very good since you are not driving the car to the store, etc., everyday. You can add mods to the value, too (value is agreed upon at the beginning.)

The SAI (secondary air injection) was required after 1995 because of having to go to OBDII for emission laws. The DME/ECU for the SAI monitors whether it's functioning correctly. Because of carbon build up (or 'coking') it will trigger a fault. That carbon build up comes from burnt oil residue. That residue comes usually from wearing or worn valve guides. A head rebuild is inevitable to completely remedy that issue.

The engines are fuel injected (no "carburetor issues"), the DME meters the fuel. Fuel pump relay DMEs can malfunction so most owners carry a spare in the glove box (a $25 part that takes 10 minutes to pop into the ECU panel.) Varioram air induction began with the 1996 model onward. Very early 911s had carburetors and they did have performance issues that Solex never could seem to resolve (they later went to using Webers.)

Most all of these issues are design/component related because of the OBDII regulations. Also noise regulations. The air cooled system eventually didn't comply with newer noise regulations. It's amazing what designers and engineers have to go through over time to adopt to newer and stricter regulations throughout the world. And safety compliance too. A lot of ideal performance design has to be compromised. Unless you completely redesign the car, which most manufacturers do instead.

There's no reason to "swap" engines if you need new valve guides. These are very strong engines. Just bite the bullet and do a head job with newer guide material. Or, if the CEL and coking doesn't bother you or affect you then just keep on driving (we have strict emissions testing here in California.)

Putting a 996/997 motor in this car is not possible nor desirable. Four valves per cylinder type motors require cooling that you can't do with air. You need a full liquid cooling system. Piping, radiator, etc.. There's no point. And you've turned a last of the breed into a strange oddity.

Mods are relatively conservative with these cars. Unless you are doing serious racing. A lot of the value of these cars lies in keeping them close to factory specs. Chassis tuning and exhaust is about it. Exhaust isn't about adding hp, but getting the sound that the designers had originally intended. The 993 factory exhaust sound was tamed down for noise regulation. There was a Motor Sound Package Option 159 available. And there was also a Reduced Sound Option. Many owners get aftermarket exhaust systems to bring out the true sound of the motor. But these aren't ricer cars and so we're not talking loud fart can kind of stuff.

These cars are more about a period of sports car ownership, engineering and build quality that kinda goes back to old school days of motor racing.
Most people would rather get a modern car with 400 hp and a mfg warranty. That's understandable, for sure. I guess you have to have a certain kind of desire to want to live with a car like this. I don't really know what that is, but I can tell you that the 993 is very fun and satisfying to drive.

I've said enough If you are ever considering one, you won't regret it.

[hl0m4n]

Originally Posted by gonzo

The Starbucks is kicking in...

If I am reading the data right a TT with the X50 package is the beast of beasts.

An 03 X50 car with an original sticker of 150K that now has 26,400 miles for $53,000 is one heck of a deal. I am not real crazy about the interior but could get over it.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196602, im thinking of going p-car route as well after the 335

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by hl0m4n

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196602, im thinking of going p-car route as well after the 335

I want one but am going to wait. Going with an E39 M5 for now. It settles my desire for a more classic car but I WILL get one some day. Slapping out 60K right now for a used car makes me a bit light headed.

Watch me post pics of a Porsche I bought....... I can be flip floppy.


stickypaws you have read every book on the history of Porsche haven't you?

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by gonzo

stickypaws you have read every book on the history of Porsche haven't you?

Yep, you sort end up having to after owning several versions....

And next month I'm having Darin Fister do his magic to my go-kart.

[u2b]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/P4TpVBEouwY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/P4TpVBEouwY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/u2b]

[gonzo]

I DO NOT NEED PORSCHE SOUND CLIPS.



That will sound great on your kart.

I am such a nut job. I have been looking at killer deals on P's over on 6speed.

People are basically begging for buyers for their nice cars. Several read "Price lowered, again".


Going o/t a bit. Listen to this.

[gonzo]

This sort of thing is making me crazy. Buy a nice E39 M5 or suck it up and.....
I sure could use some more liquid right about now.

2001 Porsche Turbo – 5K Miles
$55,000
Polar Silver Metallic
Metropol Blue Interior

Original Owner – All Service records from new.

Won Class D Porsche Concours in Oct. 2008

$120,890 new.

Other Items installed after purchase

Porsche European Suspension (Euro Spec – Lower, stiffer, better turn in)
EVOMs Short Shift Kit
Painted Silver Console (Polar Silver – See pics)
PSI Motorsport Stage 1 Upgrade (480hp/500ft./lb of torque)
Aluminum Pedal Set
GT2/GT3 Wheels (See pics)
Car Cover
Clear Side Markers