[flea333]

Originally Posted by wisesoul

This has been going on since the E46 ZHP and E39 540i M sport, hell, the E36 M3 didn't look that different from the base E36s. Just remember, what makes M exclusive is first how they drive, not how they look. Aesthetics are always important, but M never made radically different looking vehicles from the non M lineup anyways.

Good point.

[Jaguar]

absolutely nothing new if anyone here did some research on BMW as a brand. You would see the roots going way back decades ago with the same "M" branding on the 5 series to start this trend.

[YolkyPalky]

Originally Posted by solstice

Now that's where we differ. While low end TQ can initially be seductive in the long run for me it becomes rather boring compared to an engine that starts off timid and then pulls harder and harder towards a high redline.

Translation: I love it when a soccer mom's Honda Odyssey pulls away from me in the first 100 yards only to have me catch up to her after pulling harder and harder, oh yes, what a feeling!!

[Kayani_1]

I do not have a problem with M235i or M135i. In fact it makes sense competing against the Audi S versions. This leaves the real M to go up against the RS versions.

My problem comes with numbing down the the M5 and the M6. No matter how many competition pkg tweaks you do to the M5. It will not hide the fact that it is a basic platform that gives rise to the 7 series and Rolls like luxury cars. Lets, not do that BMW.

Lets make 5 series more focused drivers car like it used to be. If you have a good platform to start with then you will get great M5 and M6. Platform sharing is fine. But not to the extent that core values are ignored that had build the brand. The new M5 keeps losing to cars that it used to dominate. Ditto goes for the 5 series and 3 series cars. Lets stick to what brought you here. Lets not turn BMW brand into just another luxury car brand.

I am hoping that the new M3 and M4 are not ruined in this whole up market theme to attract more customers. Oh and I am dreading the move to EPS in M cars after horrific efforts of implementation in rest of the brand.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

I do not have a problem with M235i or M135i. In fact it makes sense competing against the Audi S versions. This leaves the real M to go up against the RS versions.

My problem comes with numbing down the the M5 and the M6. No matter how many competition pkg tweaks you do to the M5. It will not hide the fact that it is a basic platform that gives rise to the 7 series and Rolls like luxury cars. Lets, not do that BMW.

Lets make 5 series more focused drivers car like it used to be. If you have a good platform to start with then you will get great M5 and M6. Platform sharing is fine. But not to the extent that core values are ignored that had build the brand. The new M5 keeps losing to cars that it used to dominate. Ditto goes for the 5 series and 3 series cars. Lets stick to what brought you here. Lets not turn BMW brand into just another luxury car brand.

I am hoping that the new M3 and M4 are not ruined in this whole up market theme to attract more customers. Oh and I am dreading the move to EPS in M cars after horrific efforts of implementation in rest of the brand.

I'm not convinced the M5 is losing. The press says its losing, but I think the sales numbers would show it's outselling the other cars which means its winning.

Market can't be wrong, but media can be wrong.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Yes but in the automobile industry there is no room to remain select. You are not just aiming to appease 1 customer you have to satisfy many. That is the reason for our success. Each vehicle stands for a customer and in BMWs case the customer did not exist until the right car came along.

The current BMW portfolio is consistent. It symbolises a range of vehicles for each customer in each market either by engine type , model , vehicle segment and especially now sustainable mobility. BMW offers customers perhaps the most original driver focused vehicles on the market.

And it advises a solution to what can be a future problem especially when you consider proposals for further legislation.

Dude, seriously, these statements can be written for any of the mainstream vehicle manufacturers. Case in point - Chevrolet/GM:
Low cost economy car - Spark
EV - Spark EV
Larger economy car - Cruze
Diesel economy car - Cruze diesel
Extended-Range EV - Volt
Family sedan - Malibu
Sports Coupe - Camaro, CTS-V
Sports sedan - ATS, ATS-V, CTS-VSport
Sports car - Corvette
SUV - Suburban
CUV - Traverse
Pickup - Silverado 1500
Heavy Duty - Silverado 2500, 3500 ...

BMW makes a sports coupe based off a 4-door sedan chassis, the turns around and makes a 4-door sport coupe off the 2-door sport coupe chassis - LOL.

[bjayfan]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Dude, seriously, these statements can be written for any of the mainstream vehicle manufacturers.

Dude, seriously, you're completely missing the point!

You conveniently added mainstream to your statement, when the discussion should be on premium manufacturers, and it's obvious that you and others only want BMW to build sports something, whether sports cars, sports sedans, .... etc.

Lot's of people want a premium car, not so much when it comes to only sports first, only and always.

The industry is very different today, from a regulation perspective, from a technology perspective and from a competition perspective; and if there isn't some degree of diversification in the product line then you face the reality of survival being concern.

Porsche is doing the same thing, their goal is to sell more SUV's than sports cars in the US, and yes they will be sporty, but first, BMW sells more 3 series in the US than Porsche sells cars in the US, and second, Porsche is part of a much larger company and can remain in their niche without the same concerns of others.

You don't like their cars, don't buy them. That's really the only message BMW will hear and right now the whining is overwhelmed by those enjoying their cars.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by bjayfan

Dude, seriously, you're completely missing the point!

You conveniently added mainstream to your statement, when the discussion should be on premium manufacturers, and it's obvious that you and others only want BMW to build sports something, whether sports cars, sports sedans, .... etc.

Lot's of people want a premium car, not so much when it comes to only sports first, only and always.

The industry is very different today, from a regulation perspective, from a technology perspective and from a competition perspective; and if there isn't some degree of diversification in the product line then you face the reality of survival being concern.

Porsche is doing the same thing, their goal is to sell more SUV's than sports cars in the US, and yes they will be sporty, but first, BMW sells more 3 series in the US than Porsche sells cars in the US, and second, Porsche is part of a much larger company and can remain in their niche without the same concerns of others.

You don't like their cars, don't buy them. That's really the only message BMW will hear and right now the whining is overwhelmed by those enjoying their cars.

You missed the point. I used the term "mainstream" to separate single-market focused companies such as Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, etc. from companies such as Lexus (Toyota), Infinity (Nissan), Ford, GM, Chrysler, Hyundai, etc. I did not use "mainstream" to differentiate between Premium brands and "non-premium" brands; in fact I included Cadillac in my example. BMWs are considered premium cars in the US because it only offers high-content/high priced cars here. BMW makes lower content cars for other markets around the world, so I'm not missing any point. The market is no different now than it was 40 years ago. The selection is great and diverse, but that is all that has really changed. The needs of the consumer related to price vs. content is basically the same.

And BTW my E90 is a lowly vinyl-clad 2006 325i with just a sport package, BMW Assist (to get Bluetooth), and Xenons. I didn't by it because of the Roundel to be "premium"; I bought my car because it is the only car on the market with a naturally aspirated in-line 6, manual transmission, and RWD. Now that BMW doesn't offer that configuration anymore, you are correct, I will be shopping elsewhere, after 25 years of BMW ownership.

It's funny, I bold type highlighted the part of your post that Scott26 has made the entirely opposite argument in a thread under the i3/i8 Forum. Scott26 argues BMW needs to become more mainstream (i.e. more diverse by offering the i3 and i8) to remain "Independent", where you say Porsche is part of a conglomerate (VW) and therefore can remain niche.

[bjayfan]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

It's funny, I bold type highlighted the part of your post that Scott26 has made the entirely opposite argument in a thread under the i3/i8 Forum. Scott26 argues BMW needs to become more mainstream (i.e. more diverse by offering the i3 and i8) to remain "Independent", where you say Porsche is part of a conglomerate (VW) and therefore can remain niche.

It's the same. You want to argue from the consumer point of view, from the business point of view, where the actual decisions are made you have to take into account competition, which means you have to look at the structure/organization of the industry.

BMW wants to be independent? Then they need to diversify and grow to protect themself.

Porsche is a low volume manufacturer, they want to grow they have to diversify also. But the range of diversification needed here is mitigated by a structure that includes VW, Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT and Skoda.

The point is that because of technology just about anyone can build a 'sporty' car, and they do. It doesn't have to be expensive to be sporty. The point is also that as the market grows, the sports segment grows at a slower pace than the overall market. What BMW is doing is good business.

[Kayani_1]

I disagree with you.

Take Toyota Corolla it is the world leader in car sales. Are you telling me it is an awesome car cause it sells so much.........I hope not.

Toyota Corolla is a very bland car and only reason people buy it is because they want something that comes with rock solid reliability for daily grind. They use cars as mere transportation.

Just because M5 sells a lot does not make it a better car.


By the way do you have sales data that shows M5/M6/M6 grancoupes lead over the AMG E sedan, coupe, CLS, S AMG cars. I think AMG might be ahead as they offer more versions.

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

I'm not convinced the M5 is losing. The press says its losing, but I think the sales numbers would show it's outselling the other cars which means its winning.

Market can't be wrong, but media can be wrong.

[Kayani_1]

...........sure Scott26 if that makes you feel better sleeping at night.

Those days are gone.

We are now in a era where BMW is less worried about making driver focused cars. Instead they are busy making appliances without soul.

Each of the new cars are super diluted hard to tell the difference between them and what is offered by others. The 7, 5, and 3 are all watered down. Because after all you are going for the masses. That is what happens if you do that. Because you guys ruined the base that M division has to work with the M engineers can only do so much to fix it. I am pretty sure you heard of the term "lipstick on pig does not hide the fact that it is a pig underneath."

Anyways, I am hoping that BMW will not ruin the M3/M4/M2. Lets start by ditching the EPS system for M cars until it has been perfected.

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

BMW offers customers perhaps the most original driver focused vehicles on the market.
.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

BMW offers customers perhaps the most original driver focused vehicles on the market.

Your definition of driver focused must be a hell of a lot different to mine....

Now the 135i is dead, I suspect the only non-///M car with any driver focus might be the Z4, but I've not driven one of those.

The F20 and F30 series cars I've recently driven have been anything but driver focused.

This is what is diluting the BMW brand, non the dilution of the ///M cars, but the dilution of the 'ordinary' BMW car. There was a time when you still buy an affordable and enjoyable to drive BMW, which is what made the brand special. The icing on the cake was the ///M stuff.
Now, unless you can afford a ///M car (and outside of the USA you have to be a big earner to do that) you've got to put up with crap electric steering, diesel powered, nanny electronics mediocrity.

I'm glad I was able to get my 135i when I did, as I can't see any future replacement on the horizon from BMW.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

Your definition of driver focused must be a hell of a lot different to mine....

Now the 135i is dead, I suspect the only non-///M car with any driver focus might be the Z4, but I've not driven one of those.

The F20 and F30 series cars I've recently driven have been anything but driver focused.

This is what is diluting the BMW brand, non the dilution of the ///M cars, but the dilution of the 'ordinary' BMW car. There was a time when you still buy an affordable and enjoyable to drive BMW, which is what made the brand special. The icing on the cake was the ///M stuff.
Now, unless you can afford a ///M car (and outside of the USA you have to be a big earner to do that) you've got to put up with crap electric steering, diesel powered, nanny electronics mediocrity.

I'm glad I was able to get my 135i when I did, as I can't see any future replacement on the horizon from BMW.

very well said. the reality is that the 3-series has been numb and dead since the E46. the E90/E92 3-series (non-M) cars i've driven were fat and bloated....boring to drive. the E82 1-series recaptured the spirit of the E30, E36, and E46 in a small package....which is why the 135 is such a special car. The LAST of the true BMW spirit i grew up respecting.

The last time i drove an F30.....it was much worse than even the last E92 i'd driven......totally numb and unresponsive. The reality is that without the M-Sport packages....the 3-series and up have virtually no enthusiasm any more. Pretty sad but true.

I am glad that BMW are making 'sub-M' cars as well as M cars. At least it gives us more choices than the boring standard lineup of mass consumer cars like the 328.

[ska///235i]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

With over 60 % of new BMW automobile sales opting for the M Sport packet I would not say brand dilution. But more as progress. M is much more a commercial entity than it was 10 years ago.
The customer has made BMW M. What it is today.

that being said...BMW is getting soft

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

This will ultimately be M's downfall, as well as BMW.

-=John William score plays in background.=-

That's a pretty bold statement.

Explain to me how by appealing to a wider audience (i.e., selling more cars), BMW will begin to suffer as a business.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

-=John William score plays in background.=-

That's a pretty bold statement.

Explain to me how by appealing to a wider audience (i.e., selling more cars), BMW will begin to suffer as a business.

Not necessarily saying I agree - but I think the argument would go something like this:

When you try too hard to be good at everything (cough, Toyota, GM, ford, cough), you lose the identity that would have initially defined you.

If BMW once stood for fun cars that were RWD, and the ///M version was a much more focused and raw version of that base model - the direction and use of the ///M logo and name now, it could be argued, has been massively diluted.

When you can get a 118i with M badges all over it, maybe a fatter steering wheel, and 17s instead of 16s, what have you added that is remotely connected to the heritage of an M car ?

Nothing would be the answer. Just a marketing gimmick - which I understand from BMW's point of view. Doesn't change the fact that the argument has some merit, from the "dilution" standpoint anyway.

My $.02

[P1]

Have a look at Audi. I cannot tell an A4 apart from an S4. Or an A7 from an RS7.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Not necessarily saying I agree - but I think the argument would go something like this:

When you try too hard to be good at everything (cough, Toyota, GM, ford, cough), you lose the identity that would have initially defined you.

If BMW once stood for fun cars that were RWD, and the ///M version was a much more focused and raw version of that base model - the direction and use of the ///M logo and name now, it could be argued, has been massively diluted.

When you can get a 118i with M badges all over it, maybe a fatter steering wheel, and 17s instead of 16s, what have you added that is remotely connected to the heritage of an M car ?

Nothing would be the answer. Just a marketing gimmick - which I understand from BMW's point of view. Doesn't change the fact that the argument has some merit, from the "dilution" standpoint anyway.

My $.02

Very succinct and well stated.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Not necessarily saying I agree - but I think the argument would go something like this:

When you try too hard to be good at everything (cough, Toyota, GM, ford, cough), you lose the identity that would have initially defined you.

If BMW once stood for fun cars that were RWD, and the ///M version was a much more focused and raw version of that base model - the direction and use of the ///M logo and name now, it could be argued, has been massively diluted.

When you can get a 118i with M badges all over it, maybe a fatter steering wheel, and 17s instead of 16s, what have you added that is remotely connected to the heritage of an M car ?

Nothing would be the answer. Just a marketing gimmick - which I understand from BMW's point of view. Doesn't change the fact that the argument has some merit, from the "dilution" standpoint anyway.

My $.02

The overwhelming majority of BMWs that I see on the road are base 328i sedans, base 528i sedans, base X3s, base X5s, etc.

A tiny percentage of hardcore enthusiasts may feel that the M brand is being diluted with the introduction of all the "M Sport" and "M Performance" models/products but even if all of these customers jump ship, it's not going to even put a dent in BMW's armor.

Even the guys rambling about being ticked off because the new M3 is a forced induction car will likely buy it, despite their grievances.

As an aside: My M Sport F30 335i was pretty soft. Even after adding literally all of the M Performance parts, it was still a little soft (particularly in the steering department). That's why I switched.

That said, I was glad that those M Performance parts existed. I was very shocked at how soft my RWD M Sport 335i was. It was quick, sure. But the suspension was floaty, there were copious amounts of body roll, and I could steer the car with my little finger because the steering was so boosted.

If anything, the M Performance parts kept me hanging on to the car a little longer than I would've otherwise.

[scrammer]

Originally Posted by gaz26

Well done to BMW with clever marketing. If 60% of sales have an M tag that's a big bonus to profit given the basic MSport does little more than add some beefed up bumpers, a better steering wheel, so nice wheels and slightly better seats. Net cost to BMW must be pennies over basic car but they add 10% to the price!!

Just looked up the M-Sport option on the US website and as noted above the AeroKit, M-Steering Wheel, Sport Seats and 18" M Wheels are an additional $3,100 - Looks like about $2,900 in extra profit for the Bimmer Boys and no performance advantage for the the driver.

By the way add the Dynamic Handling Package, M-Sport Brakes, and 19" wheels - things that could arguably add some performance - for only another $2,550

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by ska325xi

that being said...BMW is getting soft

That must be why you got your matte black grilles and license plate LED...so people will know you're hard.

[ska///235i]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

That must be why you got your matte black grilles and license plate LED...so people will know you're hard.

Lol why u mad bro??
The discussion here is that BMW is not what it use to be and I always see guys from BMWUSA trying to explain to us that it is due to customer demands...so that being said, BMW is getting soft and no longer make their cars with performance being the priority....so whats your response on that?