[kingofthedemo]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Unfortunately to me plant based diet = "salad". I'm sure there's plenty of other stuff that can be made using plant based products, but growing up my whole life eating animal protein + rice I really wouldn't even have a clue what to eat.

Actually this reminds me of some book I read (no idea what it was even about) but they talked about some government marketing campaign back in WWII to try to get people to eat more organ meat. At first they tried to simply tell people how delicious organ meat was, that failed miserably. Then they actually tried going after the women since the husbands would pretty much eat whatever they made I guess. And showed them how to cook the organ meat in dishes so that they would look and taste just like any other meat. In a sense just disguising the organ meat as something else. Apparently that worked.

So I guess I'll wait for my cabbage steak.

There are plenty of great vegan recipes online, I posted one for black bean burgers earlier in this thread that is really delicious!

[BKap08]

made some turkey meatball and brown rice stuffed bell peppers!
they were SO bomb i highly recommend these!

[Litos]

boooooooring lol.

tilapia with lettuce, carrots and what appeared to be sliced bell peppers.....

[BKap08]

Originally Posted by Litos

boooooooring lol.

tilapia with lettuce, carrots and what appeared to be sliced bell peppers.....

you gotta get more creative with what you make! take something simple that you enjoy a lot and make a healthy version of it. That way you wont get bored or tired of healthy food. It'll also stop cravings for the unhealthy stuff

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Litos

boooooooring lol.

tilapia with lettuce, carrots and what appeared to be sliced bell peppers.....

Apart from the lack of rice it doesn't look bad. Actually had something similar tonight, cod with a bit of panko, cooked in the pan with a side of rice and some broccoli. Didn't take a pic though.

[i dunno]

Originally Posted by kingofthedemo

It's complicated watch the documentary for more info, and read ''eat to live'' by Dr. Joel Fuhrman. European countries and Australia also have high cancer rates, and high rates of heart disease, and stroke though.

The point is that countries with the lowest consumption of animal products, and refined/processed foods, and highest consumption of unrefined plant based foods, have the lowest incidence of cancer, and heart disease. In the US, about one in three people will (it's nearing one in two) develop cancer in their lifetimes, this is largely due to our diet, which consists mainly of animal products and refined/processed foods, instead of unrefined plant based foods.

In a nutshell, over 3,000 medical journal articles, and large scale nutritional clinical studies, have demonstrated, that there is a very strong causal link between heart disease, stroke, and certain cancers, and a diet high in animal products, and processed foods.

There are proteins in animal products (eggs, meat, dairy) that turn on cancer genes, and increase growth hormones like insulin and IGF1 that lead to cell proliferation, which can in turn raise cancer risk. Refined/Processed foods stimulate the reward centers in the brain which lead to overeating, obesity, and diabetes. A lack of plant based foods in the western diet, leads to a deficiency in vital micronutrients and phytochemicals, which lower cancer risk when consumed on a regular basis, and in large quantities.

This graph sums it up pretty well:

you're right. it is complicated, but simply blaming animal proteins isn't the solution. processed foods are definitely terrible, but meat and animal products are more nuanced.

lower consumption of animal products does not equate to lower cases of heart disease and cancer. according to the WHO, deaths from coronary heart disease are really low in japan and france, and both of those countries eat lots of animal products. seafood is a japanese staple, and france even consumes more saturated fat (presumably from cheese and butter) per person than the US.

cancer is a bit harder to make definitive conclusions becuase its incidence greatly increases with age. in places like laos where the life expectancy is lower, one of the reasons why cancer rates are lower might be because people are more likely to die from another cause.

another variable is also how the animals were raised. in the us, cows are fed corn which is not what cows normally eat. this makes the cows fatter and messes with their stomach acidity. grass fed and pastured cows are leaner with a higher ratio of omega 3s. argentina consumes more beef per person than the US and experiences less deaths from heart disease. part of the reason might be that grass fed beef is more popular there.

if you're worried about insulin response, then eating animal products like meat, eggs, and fish are good choices. insulin is released in response to blood glucose levels, so minimizing foods high in carbs will result in lower serum levels of insulin. in terms of igf-1, its more complicated. milk and soybeans have been shown to increase levels of igf-1, but it's still debatable at this point. eating large quantities of vegetables also isn't a foolproof solution. i mean you can get hypothyroidism from eating too much kale. im not trying to say vegetables are bad and meat is 100% healthy, but food isn't a simple subject, and the science revolving around nutrition is incomplete. i think the best advice comes from michael pollan. eat food. NOT TOO MUCH. mostly plants.

[i dunno]

oh i just googled forks over knives and this popped up. its incredibly long but i quickly skimmed it and it seems to back itself with references. i havent seen the documentary so i cant really comment but maybe you'd be interested
http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/for...-and-critique/

[kingofthedemo]

Originally Posted by i dunno

lower consumption of animal products does not equate to lower cases of heart disease and cancer. .

The China–Cornell–Oxford Project study, Adventist Health Studies,( As well as countless others) have strongly demonstrated the opposite to be true....


(Also in respect to the graph below, the drastically lower cancer rates also apply uniformly to childhood cancers, which suggests that the disparity between cancer rates, cannot simply be explained away by premature deaths due to other factors. One constant remains true, the countries who's populations consume the largest percentage of their calories from plant based foods, and not animal products, have the lowest incidence of heart disease and cancer.)

Originally Posted by i dunno

if you're worried about insulin response, then eating animal products like meat, eggs, and fish are good choices. insulin is released in response to blood glucose levels, so minimizing foods high in carbs will result in lower serum levels of insulin.

Foods high in carbohydrates that are also high in fiber like whole grains, do not spike blood glucose levels, by choosing good carbs that are high in fiber, you can easily prevent this from being a problem. You don't need animal products to balance your blood glucose levels.

Originally Posted by i dunno

in terms of igf-1, its more complicated. milk and soybeans have been shown to increase levels of igf-1, but it's still debatable at this point.

It's not debatable that IGF1 is a growth hormone, and it's certainly not debatable that growth hormones lead to cell proliferation, which in turn increases cancer risk...

Originally Posted by i dunno

eating large quantities of vegetables also isn't a foolproof solution. i mean you can get hypothyroidism from eating too much kale.

Hypothyroidism is only a risk from cruciferous vegetable consumption when people are juicing bulk amounts of it and drinking it in a concentrated form. This isn't an issue when eating normal amounts of crucifeorus vegetables, and this risk can be completely eliminated by simply cooking crucifeorus vegetables. The benefits of eating large quantities, and varieties, of plant based foods per day, would certainly far outweigh any possible ''risks'' that you could imagine.

Originally Posted by i dunno

oh i just googled forks over knives and this popped up. its incredibly long but i quickly skimmed it and it seems to back itself with references. i havent seen the documentary so i cant really comment but maybe you'd be interested
http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/for...-and-critique/

That critique seems to be very skewed to me. However, I didn't base my conclusions solely on that documentary , this is a subject that I have taken a lot of personal interest in, and I have read quite a lot about it. The numbers simply do not lie, and statistically out of all of the segments of the US population groups ever studied, the Seventh Day Adventists have the highest average lifespans, (and lower cancer rates than the rest of the US population) and they are vegetarians (*granted that they are less likely to smoke)...

Don't get me wrong though, eating vegetarian does not always equate to eating healthy, there are plenty of junk food vegetarians who are worse off than healthy ''meat eaters''. However, I do believe that a vegan diet composed of unrefined plant based foods, is superior to a diet that includes animal products. Personally, I am still eating animal products at this time, but I try to incorporate vegan meals (consisting of unrefined plant based foods) frequently, and I have greatly reduced my consumption of animal products...

[grimlock]

How'd it get from watching Litos grow to serious discussion on nutrition?

[Litos]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Apart from the lack of rice it doesn't look bad.

I'm not eating rice....

[kingofthedemo]

Originally Posted by BKap08

made some turkey meatball and brown rice stuffed bell peppers!
they were SO bomb i highly recommend these!

Those look really good! That's a good recipe idea. I love roasted bell peppers!

[i dunno]

Originally Posted by kingofthedemo

The China–Cornell–Oxford Project study, Adventist Health Studies,( As well as countless others) have strongly demonstrated the opposite to be true....


(Also in respect to the graph below, the drastically lower cancer rates also apply uniformly to childhood cancers, which suggests that the disparity between cancer rates, cannot simply be explained away by premature deaths due to other factors. One constant remains true, the countries who's populations consume the largest percentage of their calories from plant based foods, and not animal products, have the lowest incidence of heart disease and cancer.)

there are also studies that show healthy diets that include animal products, and places like japan, hong kong, Singapore exhibit lower cancer rates, lower heart disease rates, and longer life expectancies while still incorporating animal products in their diets. if you're saying that these places would experience even longer and healthier lives by switching to complete vegetarianism, then I can't really say anything about that. more research comparing healthy diets still needs to be done. your graph isn't compelling

Originally Posted by kingofthedemo

Foods high in carbohydrates that are also high in fiber like whole grains, do not spike blood glucose levels, by choosing good carbs that are high in fiber, you can easily prevent this from being a problem. You don't need animal products to balance your blood glucose levels.

I never said you needed animal products to stabilize blood glucose levels. you said that animal products "increase growth hormones like insulin." I was just merely correcting your statement.

Originally Posted by kingofthedemo

It's not debatable that IGF1 is a growth hormone, and it's certainly not debatable that growth hormones lead to cell proliferation, which in turn increases cancer risk...

yes increased levels of igf-1 are associated with cancer, but I wasn't debating that. what I was saying is that how diet affects igf-1 levels is still undergoing more research. its not simply animal proteins that increase igf levels, but soybean protein has been shown to increase it as well. theres still more to learn about it.

Originally Posted by kingofthedemo

Hypothyroidism is only a risk from cruciferous vegetable consumption when people are juicing bulk amounts of it and drinking it in a concentrated form. This isn't an issue when eating normal amounts of crucifeorus vegetables, and this risk can be completely eliminated by simply cooking crucifeorus vegetables. The benefits of eating large quantities, and varieties, of plant based foods per day, would certainly far outweigh any possible ''risks'' that you could imagine.

right, its not an issue when eating normal amounts, but then what do you mean by large quantities? if you mean a higher proportion of vegetables, then that's fine. if you mean simply large amounts of vegetables, then i have to disagree. if theres anything that's constant, its that healthy diets are lower calorie.

Originally Posted by kingofthedemo

That critique seems to be very skewed to me. However, I didn't base my conclusions solely on that documentary , this is a subject that I have taken a lot of personal interest in, and I have read quite a lot about it. The numbers simply do not lie, and statistically out of all of the segments of the US population groups ever studied, the Seventh Day Adventists have the highest average lifespans, (and lower cancer rates than the rest of the US population) and they are vegetarians (*granted that they are less likely to smoke)...

yes, Adventists are healthier, but there's probably more to the story than just vegetarianism. they still need to account for how meat is produced in this country. would eating beef that wasn't pumped with hormones or wild caught fish make any meaningful impact on American health? although not studied that well, inuits don't traditionally experience the same kind of cancers as western societies even though their diet is almost entirely animal products. diet is complicated, and there are still many questions left to be answered.

Originally Posted by kingofthedemo

Don't get me wrong though, eating vegetarian does not always equate to eating healthy, there are plenty of junk food vegetarians who are worse off than healthy ''meat eaters''. However, I do believe that a vegan diet composed of unrefined plant based foods, is superior to a diet that includes animal products. Personally, I am still eating animal products at this time, but I try to incorporate vegan meals (consisting of unrefined plant based foods) frequently, and I have greatly reduced my consumption of animal products...

I'm sure all americans would benefit from eating vegetarian, but there are still places in the world that thrive while eating some animal products. theres lots of factors that affect the quality of animal products so saying they're always inferior is an oversimplification. eat food. not too much. mostly plants.

[US///M3]

I miss the Czech Republic, great beer, Parek....

[johanness]

Originally Posted by US///M3

I miss the Czech Republic, great beer, Parek....

AMEN!

[kingofthedemo]

Originally Posted by i dunno

right, its not an issue when eating normal amounts, but then what do you mean by large quantities? if you mean a higher proportion of vegetables, then that's fine. if you mean simply large amounts of vegetables, then i have to disagree. if theres anything that's constant, its that healthy diets are lower calorie.
.

That's the beauty of a unrefined plant based diet, the majority of unrefined plant based foods (excluding potatoes, nuts, and a few fruits)are not dense in calories, so you can eat very large quantities of them and still maintain a low caloric intake!

Originally Posted by i dunno

I'm sure all americans would benefit from eating vegetarian, but there are still places in the world that thrive while eating some animal products. theres lots of factors that affect the quality of animal products so saying they're always inferior is an oversimplification. eat food. not too much. mostly plants.

I don't think it's an oversimplification at all. An unrefined plant based diet is superior because plant based foods have a far superior density of nutrients per calorie, than animal products! Animal products typically only have a few macronutrients in them, like protein, fat, and carbohydrate, and they are extremely dense in calories.

In contrast, plant based foods contain hundreds to thousands of different types of micronutrients and phytochemicals that have been proven to reduce the risk of cancer and heart disease. Additionally, unrefined plant based foods,are far less dense in calories than animal products! Which means that they are much less likely, than animal products, to contribute to the current obesity epidemic.

Did you know that one hundred calories of Broccoli not only contains various micronutrients and phytochemicals, it even has more protein than one hundred calorie serving of steak!

[i dunno]

Originally Posted by kingofthedemo

That's the beauty of a unrefined plant based diet, the majority of unrefined plant based foods (excluding potatoes, nuts, and a few fruits)are not dense in calories, so you can eat very large quantities of them and still maintain a low caloric intake!

just because something is low calorie doesn't mean you should eat a shit ton of it. we just discussed how hypothyroidism can occur with overconsumption of cruciferous vegetables. whats wrong with just eating a normal amount?

Originally Posted by kingofthedemo

I don't think it's an oversimplification at all. An unrefined plant based diet is superior because plant based foods have a far superior density of nutrients per calorie, than animal products! Animal products typically only have a few macronutrients in them, like protein, fat, and carbohydrate, and they are extremely dense in calories.

not all animal products are extremely calorie dense. many lean cuts, fish, and shellfish are less energy dense than whole wheat, nuts, or avocados. anything that contains high amounts of macronutrients is going to be energy dense because macronutrients are where calories come from.

Originally Posted by kingofthedemo

In contrast, plant based foods contain hundreds to thousands of different types of micronutrients and phytochemicals that have been proven to reduce the risk of cancer and heart disease. Additionally, unrefined plant based foods,are far less dense in calories than animal products! Which means that they are much less likely, than animal products, to contribute to the current obesity epidemic.

the current obesity epidemic cant be blamed solely on animal products when over 50% of the calories consumed in this country are carbs. sure, we eat too much low quality meat that's unusually high in saturated fat, but it seems that a large part of the issue is added sugar and refined/processed grain products. vegetables do contain many healthful nutrients and provide numerous benefits, but quality animal products are also full of vitamins, minerals, and essential fatty acids. you still haven't explained why the longest living people who display lower rates of cancer and heart disease aren't strictly vegetarians.

Originally Posted by kingofthedemo

Did you know that one ounce of Broccoli not only contains various micronutrients and phytochemicals, it even has more protein than one ounce of steak!

yes I know broccoli is very healthy, and no, it does not contain more protein than steak. if broccoli had more protein than a lean steak, it would also have more calories. protein and carbs = 4 calories per gram. fat = 9 calories per gram.

I feel bad for not posting any pics of food so heres an egg tart I had recently

[kingofthedemo]

Originally Posted by i dunno

just because something is low calorie doesn't mean you should eat a shit ton of it. we just discussed how hypothyroidism can occur with overconsumption of cruciferous vegetables. whats wrong with just eating a normal amount?

You are missing the point:

(A) There are many benefits from ingesting phytochemicals, these plant chemicals have been shown to reduce the risk of many different types of cancers in various studies. And there are thousands of different types of phytochemicals which are found in various different types of plants, therefore, eating as many different types of plants per day, should provide the best protection against various diseases. (IE: ''eating a shit ton'' of variety, of plants based foods daily, is the goal) (Watch the video below, for references etc)

(B) If you are eating a healthy unrefined plant based diet (Not just nuts, and potatoes) you have to eat large quantities of plant based foods daily, simply to consume enough calories to meet your BMR, because most of these these foods (greens, mushrooms, onions, etc) are extremely low in calories. Hypothyroidism is not a concern if you are cooking your vegetables, and it's not a concern for raw vegetables unless you are juicing them in bulk daily.

Originally Posted by i dunno

. you still haven't explained why the longest living people who display lower rates of cancer and heart disease aren't strictly vegetarians.

In this country and in China the people who live/lived the longest are/were vegetarians! You should read the Adventist Health Studies! And the China–Cornell–Oxford Project study.

Originally Posted by i dunno

not all animal products are extremely calorie dense. many lean cuts, fish, and shellfish are less energy dense than whole wheat, nuts, or avocados. anything that contains high amounts of macronutrients is going to be energy dense because macronutrients are where calories come from.

Sure, but the main difference between calorie dense animal products, and calorie dense unrefined plant foods, is that the unrefined plant foods also contain much higher amounts of micronutrients, as well as beneficial phytochemicals which the animal products do not contain.

(Plant-based foods also contain high-quality amino acids that the body can use to create proteins, so animal products are not essential for this either.)

Originally Posted by i dunno

yes I know broccoli is very healthy, and no, it does not contain more protein than steak. if broccoli had more protein than a lean steak, it would also have more calories. protein and carbs = 4 calories per gram. fat = 9 calories per gram.

You will have to forgive me I did make an error when I said there was more protein in one ounce of broccoli than in one ounce of steak.

The point that I was trying to make is that there is more protein in a 100 calorie serving of broccoli, than there is in a 100 calorie serving of steak (Beef Short Loin, or Porterhouse specifically) see the link I posted below.

Link: https://www.drfuhrman.com/faq/questi...id=16&qindex=9

You should watch this video!

[u2b][u2b][/u2b][/u2b]

[BKap08]

Originally Posted by kingofthedemo

Those look really good! That's a good recipe idea. I love roasted bell peppers!

it was delicious, the family had meatball subs but i decided to ditch the carbs and cheese for the bell pepper

[MisterSkiMask]

[NemesisX]

[NemesisX]

I'm embarrassed to say I ate all that food by myself

Although, in my defense that was my only meal of the day. I'm pretty sure I consumed like 4000+ calories in one sitting. This is a perfect example of what not to do if you're on a diet.

[i dunno]

Originally Posted by kingofthedemo

You are missing the point:

(A) There are many benefits from ingesting phytochemicals, these plant chemicals have been shown to reduce the risk of many different types of cancers in various studies. And there are thousands of different types of phytochemicals which are found in various different types of plants, therefore, eating as many different types of plants per day, should provide the best protection against various diseases. (IE: ''eating a shit ton'' of variety, of plants based foods daily, is the goal) (Watch the video below, for references etc)

(B) If you are eating a healthy unrefined plant based diet (Not just nuts, and potatoes) you have to eat large quantities of plant based foods daily, simply to consume enough calories to meet your BMR, because most of these these foods (greens, mushrooms, onions, etc) are extremely low in calories. Hypothyroidism is not a concern if you are cooking your vegetables, and it's not a concern for raw vegetables unless you are juicing them in bulk daily.

In this country and in China the people who live/lived the longest are/were vegetarians! You should read the Adventist Health Studies! And the China–Cornell–Oxford Project study.

Sure, but the main difference between calorie dense animal products, and calorie dense unrefined plant foods, is that the unrefined plant foods also contain much higher amounts of micronutrients, as well as beneficial phytochemicals which the animal products do not contain.

(Plant-based foods also contain high-quality amino acids that the body can use to create proteins, so animal products are not essential for this either.)


You will have to forgive me I did make an error when I said there was more protein in one ounce of broccoli than in one ounce of steak.

The point that I was trying to make is that there is more protein in a 100 calorie serving of broccoli, than there is in a 100 calorie serving of steak (Beef Short Loin, or Porterhouse specifically) see the link I posted below.

[u2b][u2b][/u2b][/u2b]

nutrition doesn't work like that. studies do show that eating vegetables rich in nutrients are healthy for you, but that doesn't mean that you should try to stuff yourself as much as you can. like water, you can consume too much, and you can overconsume micronutrients. studies aren't clear, but there are suggestions that daily high doses of beta carotene can increase the chance of cancer. the chinese vegetarians and adventists in the studies ate sensibly and balanced with a good share of vegetables, roots, nuts, and legumes. they certainly were not stuffing their faces with bowl after bowl of all the plants they could find.

i wasnt talking about the us and china. you cant automatically assume that plant based diets are absolutely the most healthy based on results in two countries. you have to look at the big picture. the areas with the longest life expectancies with low incidence of cancer and heart disease are places like japan and hong kong. how do you explain their health if most of their population isn't strictly vegetarian?