[chris82]

Originally Posted by Mywifes335

^this boggles my mind. I mean, do these cars really cost that much more to make or are the manufacturers setting their MSRPs too high?

The CTSV basically has the same engine architecture/technology that a million other GM cars share.

I personally like the CTSV, and the previous gen car is a monster. They can easily be modded on the stock supercharger and internals to put down times that M3s can only dream of.

Actually, I got my numbers mixed up.

The CTS-V is the one with the $83K price tag, not the ATS-V

[Beartato]

Originally Posted by gtron

Speaking of Porsdhe -- the last Porshe I had they just gave me and the wife keys and said come back when we had a good feel for it. I haven't been to a dealership where someone didn't have to drive with me in many years.

When I went to test drive a Subaru BRZ they handed me the keys and said have fun, in stark contrast to the BMW dealership I test drove an M235ix (xi?) at which they had someone ride with me, dictate the route and wouldn't even let me back it into its parking spot. It's funny how that works.

[Mywifes335]

Originally Posted by Beartato

When I went to test drive a Subaru BRZ they handed me the keys and said have fun, in stark contrast to the BMW dealership I test drove an M235ix (xi?) at which they had someone ride with me, dictate the route and wouldn't even let me back it into its parking spot. It's funny how that works.

At least you got to test drive...

Most dealerships send someone to ride with you. And, I honestly don't have an issue with that. In general, I've always gotten what I wanted out of a test drive...you just have to ask. Otherwise, there's reasons why dealers have specific routes and protocols. Safety and security.

I've actually had BMW dealerships leave me a car for the weekend to get accustomed to. But it is a store I've been buying from for years.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by chris82

I thought the same thing! I went to build one, saw the price, and stopped there; I think it's absurd. I'll take a very nicely optioned M4 instead any day

The V cars are worth more than an M4 IMO. That M4 price tag = LOL for what you get. BMW nickels & dimes you for options that are standard on cars that cost half the price.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by Mywifes335

^this boggles my mind. I mean, do these cars really cost that much more to make or are the manufacturers setting their MSRPs too high?

The CTSV basically has the same engine architecture/technology that a million other GM cars share.

I personally like the CTSV, and the previous gen car is a monster. They can easily be modded on the stock supercharger and internals to put down times that M3s can only dream of.

No, the CTS-V doesn't share the same drivetrain as a million GM cars.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by Mywifes335

At least you got to test drive...

Most dealerships send someone to ride with you. And, I honestly don't have an issue with that. In general, I've always gotten what I wanted out of a test drive...you just have to ask. Otherwise, there's reasons why dealers have specific routes and protocols. Safety and security.

I've actually had BMW dealerships leave me a car for the weekend to get accustomed to. But it is a store I've been buying from for years.

All you have to do is ask for an "extended test drive" I've done it many times. If one dealer says no, you go to another that wants to sell you a car.

If I'm spending $60-70K on a new car you bet your ass I'm going to be sure about it & want the car for at least a few hours.

[Mywifes335]

Originally Posted by OrangeZ06

No, the CTS-V doesn't share the same drivetrain as a million GM cars.

Isn't the LSA (prior gen CTSV) basically the LS platform with a blower on it? I read that it's not like the LS9 which is hand-built.

[ASAP]

It's simple...

Cadillac has the wrong image and the wrong styling...

Clean up the old man styling, clean up the interior and massively push towards a younger, more performance oriented crowd... oh, and this has to be done at a lower price...

If this isn't done, then Cadillac better stick to Escalades and Deville's.

The cars are now pefromence oriented... however, they still put off the wrong image through the awful styling... oh, and they arent any cheaper than say an m3 or c63...

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by OrangeZ06

The V cars are worth more than an M4 IMO. That M4 price tag = LOL for what you get. BMW nickels & dimes you for options that are standard on cars that cost half the price.

Interesting comments, considering a ATS V doesn't come with that shitty navi standard or even Xenon headlamps... in fact, the base seats are are a joke in comparison...not sure if your comment was meant to be a joke.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

I think Cadillac's problem is image.

They built shit for years plus, as many have mentioned, historically Cadillac dealers were rolled in with Chevy dealers, GMC, etc.

When people are spending that kind of money for a car they want their dealership experience (both pre and post purchase) to go smoothly. Since these dealers deal with so many people, they tend to just be difficult to work with. Places that sell only luxury cars train sales people better to offer a different experience.

While not a Caddie dealer, a buddy of mine a couple years ago was interested in a Subaru Impreza. The sales guy refused to let him test drive any cars telling him that people who want an Impreza don't need to test drive it.

Just nuts. I was able to walk into an Audi dealership and BMW dealership and test drive an S4, A6, and a 335i all in the same day, no questions asked, no pressure.

Absolutely! Image Image Image

[Mywifes335]

Originally Posted by ASAP

It's simple...

Cadillac has the wrong image and the wrong styling...

Clean up the old man styling, clean up the interior and massively push towards a younger, more performance oriented crowd... oh, and this has to be done at a lower price...

If this isn't done, then Cadillac better stick to Escalades and Deville's.

The cars are now pefromence oriented... however, they still put off the wrong image through the awful styling... oh, and they arent any cheaper than say an m3 or c63...

I'm pretty pro-American and when the big 3 release awesome cars, I always want to give them a fair shake at buying them.

I think GM tried to do this with the CTS, albeit with limited success. In the last couple years it has been the ATS 2.0T and ATS-V.

When it came time to test drive the ATS 2.0T, the dealership had the audacity to try and tell me I'm uniformed and put me in the 2.5L. When I refused, he quoted me crazy at MSRP pricing (basically) and lease numbers. Discouraged, we just went with another 3er.

[Mywifes335]

Originally Posted by ASAP

It's simple...

Cadillac has the wrong image and the wrong styling...

Clean up the old man styling, clean up the interior and massively push towards a younger, more performance oriented crowd... oh, and this has to be done at a lower price...

If this isn't done, then Cadillac better stick to Escalades and Deville's.

The cars are now pefromence oriented... however, they still put off the wrong image through the awful styling... oh, and they arent any cheaper than say an m3 or c63...

With the Escalade, Cadillac should've capitalized on the support from the hip-hop world. Now it's ruled by G wagons and Land Rovers.

[Iron Man]

Originally Posted by chris82

I thought the same thing! I went to build one, saw the price, and stopped there; I think it's absurd. I'll take a very nicely optioned M4 instead any day

I'm surprised more people haven't really mentioned this reason in thread. I think Cadillac's main problem is PRICE. With each of their new models they raised prices across the board.

When the ATS first came out I checked it out against the 3-series. Sure it was nice, but the price was the same or more than the Bimmer. Not too many people will pay BMW prices for a Caddy. The need to dramatically improve their image by improving sales and getting more people into the improved models, THEN they can raise their prices.

I think they raised their prices too fast, believing higher prices would improve their image...

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Interesting comments, considering a ATS V doesn't come with that shitty navi standard or even Xenon headlamps... in fact, the base seats are are a joke in comparison...not sure if your comment was meant to be a joke.

Recaros have been an option for a long time in the V cars, just like most cars. Ford's ST cars, etc.

Are you sure the V does not have HIDs standard? I have a feeling you are thinking of a base model ATS.

At any rate, my post holds true for what BMW does.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by OrangeZ06

Recaros have been an option for a long time in the V cars, just like most cars. Ford's ST cars, etc.

Are you sure the V does not have HIDs standard? I have a feeling you are thinking of a base model ATS.

At any rate, my post holds true for what BMW does.

HID is part of ATS-V luxury package, which also includes CUE and universal home remote. There is also a charge for a sunroof if you want one. As far as I know there is no CF roof option.

What is included in the ATS-V base model that is excluded from the M3/4?

[ptbarnacle]

The dealership experience, overall build quality, real world driving, and resale all influence value and desirability.

[Mywifes335]

I think its unanimous that the Cadillac dealership experience sucks ass.

We should email a transcript of this thread to GM execs. They're so unhinged and oblivious.

There dealership network is riddled with condescending, undereducated, unprofessional dbags. They were probably riding gravy train selling Devilles, STDs, DTSs, and Broughams to old blue hairs at "AARP" pricing rather than more savvy consumers whom actually give a shit about what they drive and not just that crest on the hood.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Iron Man

I'm surprised more people haven't really mentioned this reason in thread. I think Cadillac's main problem is PRICE. With each of their new models they raised prices across the board.

When the ATS first came out I checked it out against the 3-series. Sure it was nice, but the price was the same or more than the Bimmer. Not too many people will pay BMW prices for a Caddy. The need to dramatically improve their image by improving sales and getting more people into the improved models, THEN they can raise their prices.

I think they raised their prices too fast, believing higher prices would improve their image...

I ended up buying a CPO ATS but this was at the last minute. When I compared the price of a Premium ATS RWD 3.6 to the same spec 3 series it wasn't close. Premium RWD ATS comes with every performance option, leather, nav., HID, backup camera, MSRP of about $49k and I could have bought it for $45k (don't know now). Similar 335 was roughly $55k, not even close. Then my ATS has an LSD, Magnetic Ride, and staggered, forged wheels.

One reason I think the comparison tests are somewhat misleading is they (and maybe I, not sure) may agree that the 3 series is a better car if they cost the same, but reality is spec for spec they don't. Add in I want to keep my car for at least 120k miles and the number of people that say doing this with a BMW is a big mistake and it was enough for me.

Then in 2016 the ATS got a 8 speed transmission and the V-6 is all new with more hp and improved mpg but I haven't read a test on it but in the Camaro it gets good reviews.

[Iron Man]

Originally Posted by David70

I ended up buying a CPO ATS but this was at the last minute. When I compared the price of a Premium ATS RWD 3.6 to the same spec 3 series it wasn't close. Premium RWD ATS comes with every performance option, leather, nav., HID, backup camera, MSRP of about $49k and I could have bought it for $45k (don't know now). Similar 335 was roughly $55k, not even close. Then my ATS has an LSD, Magnetic Ride, and staggered, forged wheels.

One reason I think the comparison tests are somewhat misleading is they (and maybe I, not sure) may agree that the 3 series is a better car if they cost the same, but reality is spec for spec they don't. Add in I want to keep my car for at least 120k miles and the number of people that say doing this with a BMW is a big mistake and it was enough for me.

Then in 2016 the ATS got a 8 speed transmission and the V-6 is all new with more hp and improved mpg but I haven't read a test on it but in the Camaro it gets good reviews.

I was mainly looking at the 2.0L turbo model, which is a much higher volume model. I just quickly built a 2.0L ATS and 328i and they are still pretty comparable in pricing, though the ATS did have more standard and Cadillac is now immediately taking $2,500 off as an incentive.

I'm pretty sure most people see the BMW as a greater value with similar pricing.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by Mywifes335

Isn't the LSA (prior gen CTSV) basically the LS platform with a blower on it? I read that it's not like the LS9 which is hand-built.

Pretty sure it was the LS9.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by Mywifes335

I think its unanimous that the Cadillac dealership experience sucks ass.

We should email a transcript of this thread to GM execs. They're so unhinged and oblivious.

There dealership network is riddled with condescending, undereducated, unprofessional dbags. They were probably riding gravy train selling Devilles, STDs, DTSs, and Broughams to old blue hairs at "AARP" pricing rather than more savvy consumers whom actually give a shit about what they drive and not just that crest on the hood.

Wow, talk about a bs blanket statement. I've had good experiences at some Caddy dealers...

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by David70

I ended up buying a CPO ATS but this was at the last minute. When I compared the price of a Premium ATS RWD 3.6 to the same spec 3 series it wasn't close. Premium RWD ATS comes with every performance option, leather, nav., HID, backup camera, MSRP of about $49k and I could have bought it for $45k (don't know now). Similar 335 was roughly $55k, not even close. Then my ATS has an LSD, Magnetic Ride, and staggered, forged wheels.

Did you drive both cars or just price them / compare specs? I think many would view the 3.6L V-6 vs. BMW 3.0 a considerable difference, perhaps enough alone to justify the MSRP difference. Also, you can negotiate prices with BMW as well so if you are comparing $55K MSRP to $45K I think that's a bit off.