[Darth One]

I'm starting to get a little uncomfortable about all this talk of what is "raw"

For relief of symptoms, see your dermatologist

[shobotan]

Nissan 180SX, noisey, smelly, gets upset if it thinks it doesn't have your full attention and heads for the landscape. It's a keeper.

[Nkc]

Raw to the bone.

[MagnusT]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Your talking out your ass my e46 track car would make the csl seem like a Cadillac

That's why I wrote "nothing you can't fix" Making an E46 M3 dedicated track car is very rewarding. But I do miss my CSL...

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by Darth One

I'm starting to get a little uncomfortable about all this talk of what is "raw"

For relief of symptoms, see your dermatologist

I do powerlifter raw, also see raw dog.

[ASAP]

Very few people today actually want anything remotely to what would be considered a raw car... most people daily drive their cars to and back from work and the lack of comfort / noise with a raw car simply doesn't work for most. Having personally owned 3 relatively raw cars, I don't think I could ever go back after I bought a more stable DD. Raw cars are ok if you don't daily drive them...

[xQx]

Originally Posted by Nkc

Raw to the bone.

I cannot think of words creative enough to express my jealousy of your garage without being downright nasty.

You have done well in life sir, enjoy the spoils.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by Nkc

Raw to the bone.

You win

[xQx]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Very few people today actually want anything remotely to what would be considered a raw car... most people daily drive their cars to and back from work and the lack of comfort / noise with a raw car simply doesn't work for most. Having personally owned 3 relatively raw cars, I don't think I could ever go back after I bought a more stable DD. Raw cars are ok if you don't daily drive them...

Yeah, somewhere along the line this thread became a dick-swinging competition about who could come up with the most "raw" experience on 4 wheels. OP was bemoaning the detachment (note, not the comfort) of a modern 3 series and how that's getting worse with turbochargers.

I don't think that was an unreasonable observation. I still miss the immediate pull my X5 4.8is had compared with a FBO N54 Twin Turbo; but it was a lounge chair on four wheels when it came to ride comfort and 'attachment to the road'.

This thread was "won" long ago, with the suggestion of an Ariel Atom - or a Caterham 620r with straight-cut gears and a button-clutch.

Driving a true "Raw" car for a few hours on the road is exactly the sort of thing that would make you long for a brand new M3, M5 or AMG.

Honestly, I think OP's goals are difficult to find in a BMW. BMW N/A engines need to be wound up to get good power, thanks to their low displacement - one of the most common praises of the 135i vs a E46 or E92 M3 is the instant torque you get out of the N54 compared to having to ring it out to 8k RPM the way you do in the 3.2L I6 or 4.4L V8. Though, OP mentioned he had a supercharger, I'd expect the 4.4L V8 with a Harrop attached would be as good as any modern N/A V8. - so I dare say, if you're not happy with a E92 M3 + Harrop ... short of dropping a S55 into a 1M (or even better, a Z4M) - I don't think you're going to find something in the BMW range that ticks all the boxes.

I've never driven a E92 M3 with a Harrop, but I've driven a C63 Black, and while it has all the comfort of a heated lounge chair on 4 wheels; there's never any mistake where the wheels are pointed or how it's positioned on the road. For a $150k+ luxury car, they are extremely "raw" and communicative. My only criticism is the same as my little E88 - you get to the point where there's no denying the fact that you're pushing around a 3650lb behemoth (and with the C63, it's wide track means you've got half the road-space to play with than you do in a E8x).

To most people "raw" means less refined. It means smaller. It means lighter.

So, it's (limiting yourself to brand new cars) it's going to be a continuum BMW/Mercedes at the start, Porsche in the middle, then Lotus, Caterham, Ariel and motorbikes at the 'raw end of the scale'.

[Viffermike]

To me, 'raw' does not mean fast or high-performing, nor does it include anything remotely resembling frivolity in it. 'Raw' means stripped of as much equipment that makes the driving experience easier as is possible. That includes:

- Audio
- A/C
- Power assistance of any kind
- Auto transmission
- Power accessories of any kind
- etc.

There's nothing truly 'raw' that's sold new these days short of an Atom, X-Bow, Caterham 7, or the like -- and even those have a few 'nannies' because they have to to be street legal in the U.S., even as kit cars.

These were, or are, raw:
- AC Cobra
- Most small British sports cars before 1990 or so
- Most air-cooled Porsches until the mid-1980s
- VW Beetle
- Original MINI Cooper
- Some early first-gen Miatas
- Some early Honda Civic and Prelude derivatives, including the CRX
- first-gen Datsun 240/260/280Z
- Most Ferraris, Lambos, DeTomasos (particularly the Pantera), Alfas, and Lancias before the early 1980s

(Those are just a few off the top of my head.)

If you've never driven any of these, you know not what 'raw' motoring is.

If you have, you get bonus points if what you drove had:
- a carbuetor(s)
- a choke
- hydraulic brakes without X redundancy
- drum brakes
- no right-hand door mirror

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

To me, 'raw' does not mean fast or high-performing, nor does it include anything remotely resembling frivolity in it. 'Raw' means stripped of as much equipment that makes the driving experience easier as is possible. That includes:

- Audio
- A/C
- Power assistance of any kind
- Auto transmission
- Power accessories of any kind
- etc.

There's nothing truly 'raw' that's sold new these days short of an Atom, X-Bow, Caterham 7, or the like -- and even those have a few 'nannies' because they have to to be street legal in the U.S., even as kit cars.

These were, or are, raw:
- AC Cobra
- Most small British sports cars before 1990 or so
- Most air-cooled Porsches until the mid-1980s
- VW Beetle
- Original MINI Cooper
- Some early first-gen Miatas
- Some early Honda Civic and Prelude derivatives, including the CRX
- first-gen Datsun 240/260/280Z
- Most Ferraris, Lambos, DeTomasos (particularly the Pantera), Alfas, and Lancias before the early 1980s

(Those are just a few off the top of my head.)

If you've never driven any of these, you know not what 'raw' motoring is.

If you have, you get bonus points if what you drove had:
- a carbuetor(s)
- a choke
- hydraulic brakes without X redundancy
- drum brakes
- no right-hand door mirror

Raw definitely does not have to have gobs of HP.

[///Mangler]

Raw.

[The Wind Breezes]

Let's put it in perspective. Raw cars are fun to drive hard. If you can drive hard when and where you choose to drive them, you might have a good time. If you can't, you will get tired of it. Simple as that.

But really you guys thinking any car can be raw are doing it wrong. What you need is a motorcycle just don't end up LITERALLY raw after you fall off and get skinned. Can't get much manlier than that.

[EnintyToo]

I'll put in. I have an E90, Z3, and E86 Z4 3.0si Coupe. I had an E30 325i for 18 years. Best raw BMW I've driven was an E21 320i (the non-boosted steering is excellent). Second best is the Z3. I put a Bilstein/H&R kit in it. The Z3 basically has an E30 suspension in it. Drop the top and it's decently raw; the old adage, it's fun to drive a slow car fast. The E30 was a refined raw. For a recent BMW I think the Z4 Coupe in any form is an excellent car to drive.

Raw probably doesn't get better than a late 60's to the last air-cooled 911.

[EnintyToo]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

To me, 'raw' does not mean fast or high-performing, nor does it include anything remotely resembling frivolity in it. 'Raw' means stripped of as much equipment that makes the driving experience easier as is possible. That includes:

- Audio
- A/C
- Power assistance of any kind
- Auto transmission
- Power accessories of any kind
- etc.

There's nothing truly 'raw' that's sold new these days short of an Atom, X-Bow, Caterham 7, or the like -- and even those have a few 'nannies' because they have to to be street legal in the U.S., even as kit cars.

These were, or are, raw:
- AC Cobra
- Most small British sports cars before 1990 or so
- Most air-cooled Porsches until the mid-1980s
- VW Beetle
- Original MINI Cooper
- Some early first-gen Miatas
- Some early Honda Civic and Prelude derivatives, including the CRX
- first-gen Datsun 240/260/280Z
- Most Ferraris, Lambos, DeTomasos (particularly the Pantera), Alfas, and Lancias before the early 1980s

(Those are just a few off the top of my head.)

If you've never driven any of these, you know not what 'raw' motoring is.

If you have, you get bonus points if what you drove had:
- a carbuetor(s)
- a choke
- hydraulic brakes without X redundancy
- drum brakes
- no right-hand door mirror

That'd be any of the four (4) early 1970's Pintos I had.

[EnintyToo]

Originally Posted by SunnyD

Ariel Atom /endthread

I'd go for the Nomad personally.

[Chihuahua]

I still have my 'raw' BMW. E30 two door, lowered, bored and stroked M20. no AC. no power steering. 5MT.

[Darth One]

Raw car:



https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbi...our-episode-5/

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by Darth One

GWAR car:



https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbi...our-episode-5/

FTFY.