[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by Levi

My car is faster than your car and that is all that matters...unless my car is slower than your car in which case it doesn't matter because my car is not only about fastness.

Has nothing to do with which car is faster - there are plenty of cars faster than the F8x and the E9x..

The point of the thread is not to misrepresent facts - the fact is: 1) the F8x is objectively much more capable than the E9x in every single performance metric; and 2) those that have actually owned both overwhelmingly think the F8x is even more fun to drive subjectively than the already very fun E9x.

My post was responding to the post saying that the F8x is some kind of embarrassment to BMW - that would be like me saying that the Porsche 991-chassis GT3 is an embarrassment to Porsche because it was not offered with manual transmission and has electric steering...

[BDO]

Zero fucks given. I wish they'd cancel all FWD projects.

[Slalom]

BMW has become a high volume manufacturer the days of being able to produce a low volume car like the Z1 are sadly over. Furthermore, I agree with those who say that a FWD roadster is an oxymoron.

I love my E85 Z4. It is not particularly fast but it is great for driving on country roads and going away for a weekend. In fact today I plan to go for a 250Km round trip, comfortable in the knowledge that if I find something in a country store, I will have a place to put it (a serious failing on the part of BMW hard top convertibles of late).

As for the E9x vs F8x debate, I will stay with my E92 M3. My daily driver is an F3x and it is the least reliable BMW that I have owned. In six months it has spent more time in the shop than my M3, Z4 and my wife's 2009 335ix coupé.

I will be keeping the M3 and Z4 for a long time to come. The F34 will likely be replaced either with a more reliable brand or with a car that is a cheaply made but priced accordingly.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

This segment is stagnant at the most so some breathing space is being allocated to see how the new Mazda MX-5,the segments pioneer performs and to see if it can revitalise the small Roadster segment for a BMW return.

But all work on the smallest roadster in the BMW group is currently in motion in regards to focusing on making the MINI Superleggera a production reality.
Again its introduction would mean the new MX-5 would have had two years on the market.

Well there's leadership for you... LOL

Don't you find it embarrassing for BMW, one of the industry's most profitable manufacturers, and one that produces about 1M more cars per year than Mazda, can't produce a roadster that competes with the MX-5 Miata in either price or performance?

[Dvivax]

Originally Posted by mshab356

On-topic, I'm curious as to BMW's direction with the Z cars. I've been wondering why there hasn't been a new Z car out yet... Would love a Z3/4 M car.

Agreed. In a world full of of M SUVs there should be some space for a new M roadster. I wonder what the price range would be, but surely at least 80k. I still can't find a worthy replacement for the M e85.

[Powerslide]

As for the E9x vs F8x debate, I will stay with my E92 M3. My daily driver is an F3x and it is the least reliable BMW that I have owned. In six months it has spent more time in the shop than my M3, Z4 and my wife's 2009 335ix coupé.

I will be keeping the M3 and Z4 for a long time to come. The F34 will likely be replaced either with a more reliable brand or with a car that is a cheaply made but priced accordingly.[/QUOTE]

Ok everyone - this is the kind of response that anyone can respect. Absolutely nothing wrong with liking whatever you like and saying so (two great cars to have)...[notice how there was no need to discredit another car, to misrepresent how it performs, how owners subjectively like another car, etc.]...

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by dd1981

Man not even a comparison. Not sure what has his panties in a bunch but the f80 is amazing. Never owned either but spent time in both here, and it's a night and day difference. Just the f80 losing 200+ lbs was huge and can be felt. Electric steering....whatever get over it all manufacturers have it were stuck, move on...

200 pounds? Yeah right.

The car is better though in every way except responsiveness and noise.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well there's leadership for you... LOL

Don't you find it embarrassing for BMW, one of the industry's most profitable manufacturers, and one that produces about 1M more cars per year than Mazda, can't produce a roadster that competes with the MX-5 Miata in either price or performance?

Mazda's won LeMans, been the only successful manufacturer of a rotary engine and has built more sports cars than BMW by a huge margin. If you haven't noticed, volume is sort of the opposite of enthusiast cars. Toyota only rarely builds a decent sports car, Honda's built two to date and MB is only finally starting to get it straight.

BMW has built two M Coupes that were horrible sales performers (I owned one) but that's about it. I suppose the Z8 and i8 count too, but there are still about a million more RX7's and Miatae out there.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Mazda's won LeMans, been the only successful manufacturer of a rotary engine and has built more sports cars than BMW by a huge margin. If you haven't noticed, volume is sort of the opposite of enthusiast cars. Toyota only rarely builds a decent sports car, Honda's built two to date and MB is only finally starting to get it straight.

BMW has built two M Coupes that were horrible sales performers (I owned one) but that's about it. I suppose the Z8 and i8 count too, but there are still about a million more RX7's and Miatae out there.

Makes the point it is even more embarrassing for BMW then.

And really my point is BMW is so cash rich with profit apparently it still can't afford to build a decent sports car. Even if the market is so stagnant Mazda still sees it as important to be the leader of the segment it resurrected in 1990; BMW will, according to Scott, follow in Mazda's shadow again as it did with the Z3 . BMW can't even build a decent E30 anymore, Mazda with the 5th gen MX-5 has gone back to the car's roots.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Makes the point it is even more embarrassing for BMW then.

How so? They're going for volume, not good cars. Driven an F3x? Hell even the E9x weren't as good as the E46. Let's not even discuss the 5er.

[FilipMPower]

It is funny how BMW should adapt to the increasing SUV market, and then produce terrible looking SUVs, I'm talking about the overstyled mess, X5! Compare the design to the ML, Q7 and Cayenne. If BMW plans to sell volume, they should make sure the design team knows when to stop with the crazy large intakes and sharp creases all over the car. Good design is subtle, and is not spelled with sharp, countless lines and shapes...

EDIT: Of course the X5 is a great SUV with a great interior and Engines. But exterior design is the first thing people think about when buying cars. And the non-offroadability is also a bit embarrasing.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

How so? They're going for volume, not good cars. Driven an F3x? Hell even the E9x weren't as good as the E46. Let's not even discuss the 5er.

I've been a BMW owner since the late 80's my friend. The 1st BMW I drove was a 1976 E21 in 1978. I've driven the F3X cars. They suck IMO. I've posted that opinion all over the place on the Forum, which is get an ATS instead... I thought the E46 was too isolated, I didn't like it. Even though I just picked up an E86 in December last year.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I've been a BMW owner since the late 80's my friend. The 1st BMW I drove was a 1976 E21 in 1978. I've driven the F3X cars. They suck IMO. I've posted that opinion all over the place on the Forum, which is get an ATS instead... I thought the E46 was too isolated, I didn't like it. Even though I just picked up an E86 in December last year.

The E86 is probably the last truly good BMW, so nothing wrong there. Like you, I've driven E21's, E30's, E36's and E46's. The first E46's had terrible steering but the M3 had it all sorted out.

Our E82 and E84 have been okay cars, but nothing like the earlier BMW's and I'm not sure we'll get another. The ATS is indeed a better chassis but the engines and transmissions are lacking and resale is embarrassing.

But back to sports cars, BMW just doesn't care. Porsche will always clobber them on the high end and Mazda always will on the bottom end. They did okay with the Z3 and first Z4 where they priced between those two, but this Z4 tried to take it to the Boxster, which was just stupid with the old chassis and absurd to the new chassis.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

But back to sports cars, BMW just doesn't care. Porsche will always clobber them on the high end and Mazda always will on the bottom end. They did okay with the Z3 and first Z4 where they priced between those two, but this Z4 tried to take it to the Boxster, which was just stupid with the old chassis and absurd to the new chassis.

BMW has to figure out where the Z4 fits in the market. The price of the current Z4 has become absurd. The base Z4 28i starts at $50k. The Boxster? Around $52k. So for $2k more, you get the Porsche emblem. The kind of people who want a top-down roadster, but won't buy a Miata because "Ew, Mazda" are going to jump on the Porsche for an extra $2k.

As you move up the line, the Z4 35i starts at $57k. IMO, this is where BMW is trying to snag buyers. The Boxster S jumps to $64k starting. The $7k premium makes the Z4 look like a comparative bargain. Then you go and drive both, and you realize that the Z4 is not at all the same car as the Porsche.

Z4 sales have fallen off a cliff since a peak of over 20k annual sales (!) in 2003. Porsche never sold anywhere close to that number of Boxsters, but the overall Boxster sales numbers have been solid over the years. Have a look at the trend data for Z4 vs Boxster sales. This is a graph of the cumulative sales for both cars.




Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=160870038


Look at the uptick in Boxster sales with the refresh. The Z4 trend has been leveling off. That's not good. BMW has to figure out where the Z4 fits, or it's going to disappear altogether.

[Asbjorn]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

The E86 is probably the last truly good BMW, so nothing wrong there. Like you, I've driven E21's, E30's, E36's and E46's. The first E46's had terrible steering but the M3 had it all sorted out.

Our E82 and E84 have been okay cars, but nothing like the earlier BMW's and I'm not sure we'll get another. The ATS is indeed a better chassis but the engines and transmissions are lacking and resale is embarrassing.

But back to sports cars, BMW just doesn't care. Porsche will always clobber them on the high end and Mazda always will on the bottom end. They did okay with the Z3 and first Z4 where they priced between those two, but this Z4 tried to take it to the Boxster, which was just stupid with the old chassis and absurd to the new chassis.

I think BMW cares about sports cars. You can buy a Z4 35i(s), Mx35i, Mx or even i8 depending on how much sport you want with your road car / grand tourer. There are more options than ever before.

China is the biggest market for BMW I believe. Most Z4s sold here are clearly entry level 20i/23i versions. This is because if you can afford the 35i, you get the base Boxter instead. Why? Because prestige. Don't fool yourself. People driving these cars are often young girls, and they don't care about NA sound or how BMW doesnt make the E86 anymore etc. And whos fault is this?

The new Boxter S, when similarly equipped, is much more expensive than the 2015 N54 DCT equipped Z4 35i over here. Porsche options are not cheap. In my eyes the Z4 is prettier, probably more comfortable (with nonRFTs), more powerful (with a simple ECU tune) AND much cheaper. Not stupid at all. But people are not buying luxury sportscars / roadsters because of performance or engine tuneability. Just come to China and take a look at the people who actually drive these things.

[MCarsFan]

Originally Posted by Asbjorn

I think BMW cares about sports cars. You can buy a Z4 35i(s), Mx35i, Mx or even i8 depending on how much sport you want with your road car / grand tourer. There are more options than ever before.

China is the biggest market for BMW I believe. Most Z4s sold here are clearly entry level 23i versions. This is because if you can afford the 35i, you get the base Boxter instead. Why? Because prestige. Don't fool yourself. People driving these cars are often young girls, and they don't care about NA sound or how BMW doesnt make the E86 anymore etc. And whos fault is this?

The new Boxter S, when similarly equipped, is much more expensive compared to the N54 DCT equipped 2015 Z4 over here. Porsche options are not cheap. In my eyes the Z4 is prettier, probably more comfortable (with nonRFTs), more powerful (with a simple ECU tune) AND much cheaper. Not stupid at all. But people are not buying luxury sportscars / roadsters because of performance or engine tuneability. Just come to China and take a look at the people who actually drive these things.

100% agree.. very brand conscious

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by FilipMPower

It is funny how BMW should adapt to the increasing SUV market, and then produce terrible looking SUVs, I'm talking about the overstyled mess, X5! Compare the design to the ML, Q7 and Cayenne. If BMW plans to sell volume, they should make sure the design team knows when to stop with the crazy large intakes and sharp creases all over the car. Good design is subtle, and is not spelled with sharp, countless lines and shapes...

EDIT: Of course the X5 is a great SUV with a great interior and Engines. But exterior design is the first thing people think about when buying cars. And the non-offroadability is also a bit embarrasing.

Sorry but have you seen the new Audi Q7?
It is not an industry secret that there were multiple clashes over designs which affected the latest Audi models - Q7,R8 and the next A4. Especially the GMC like Q7. One of the well known rows was between Piech and Winterkorn in Which Piech wanted to know why the Q7 turned out looking like a F****** large Chevrolet Captiva.

Besides the X5 is perfect for the segment and its market. Three generations, over 1 million units sold and the perfect synthesis of Premium quality and road orientated dynamics. It is the segment benchmark from which all others are measured. I recently had the X5 M and it was phenomenal.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Sorry but have you seen the new Audi Q7?...

How about some up to date info on the Z-Cars instead... !?!

[FilipMPower]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

How about some up to date info on the Z-Cars instead... !?!

They did mention the SUV Market, Z cars are fairly irrelevant if there is no major overhaul. As the E89 was worse dynamically than the 3 series...

[FilipMPower]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Sorry but have you seen the new Audi Q7?
It is not an industry secret that there were multiple clashes over designs which affected the latest Audi models - Q7,R8 and the next A4. Especially the GMC like Q7. One of the well known rows was between Piech and Winterkorn in Which Piech wanted to know why the Q7 turned out looking like a F****** large Chevrolet Captiva.

Besides the X5 is perfect for the segment and its market. Three generations, over 1 million units sold and the perfect synthesis of Premium quality and road orientated dynamics. It is the segment benchmark from which all others are measured. I recently had the X5 M and it was phenomenal.

No doubt the new Q7 looks terrible. The old one though looked better than the edgy X5. And sales don't tell the whole story. If you want to keep up the large volume, the car needs to look proper from the exterior.

Look at this mess! The fog lights way too high and awkward, the weird X shape in the bumper and the weird intake under the kidneys. Honestly, what the hell! The headlights are too large too. Otherwise I like the shape of the front more than the previous model.



The rear end is worse than the front end. The hofmeister kink looks terrible on the SUV, and I know its tradition, but it must be implemented better. The lower bumper is wider than the rear itself, and lower crease extending throughout the whole sides and rear is so horrendously placed, it gives no good design and just is overstyled, just like the tailights under the indentation. Like I said, good design is subtle, not this busy mess.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by FilipMPower

They did mention the SUV Market, Z cars are fairly irrelevant if there is no major overhaul. As the E89 was worse dynamically than the 3 series...

The thread is about Z Cars.

Clearly Scott "They" have nothing important or exciting or relevant to talk about.

Any Car Company can build an SUV and any car company can whore out their current design language across the entire line up. Nothing new here.

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Asbjorn

I think BMW cares about sports cars. You can buy a Z4 35i(s), Mx35i, Mx or even i8 depending on how much sport you want with your road car / grand tourer. There are more options than ever before.

China is the biggest market for BMW I believe. Most Z4s sold here are clearly entry level 20i/23i versions. This is because if you can afford the 35i, you get the base Boxter instead. Why? Because prestige. Don't fool yourself. People driving these cars are often young girls, and they don't care about NA sound or how BMW doesnt make the E86 anymore etc. And whos fault is this?

The new Boxter S, when similarly equipped, is much more expensive than the 2015 N54 DCT equipped Z4 35i over here. Porsche options are not cheap. In my eyes the Z4 is prettier, probably more comfortable (with nonRFTs), more powerful (with a simple ECU tune) AND much cheaper. Not stupid at all. But people are not buying luxury sportscars / roadsters because of performance or engine tuneability. Just come to China and take a look at the people who actually drive these things.

The i8 is NOT a sports car. It's a statement.