[txusa03]

they are also looking to close down several car dealers throughout the US. It is getting ugly and the union is shaking in their boots.

[UltimateBMW]

Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony

I think the bailout is a good idea. Its forcing the big three to make major changes. Less money for the CEO's, less brand rebadging, etc.

I hope they downsize and start making some good stuff. Competition is necessary and America doesnt need to lose any more of its jobs.

No, its not.

IMHO, its not forcing anything. Its only condoning their past actions.

[inabis]

I made it myself

[uberschnell]

Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony

Im not following the story too closely, but I thought that the loans, if given, were conditional. That the big three had to outline their strategies for the coming years.

The biggest problem is the loss of jobs. Its a tough place the big three have gotten themselves into. They need loans, while trying to turn business around, without costing millions of Americans their jobs. Either way is a horrible situation that they got themselves into.

Outside of bankruptcy there is no way to force a bond holder to take less the 100 cents per dollar. Outside of Bankruptcy there is no way to restructure dept if the holder chooses not to. Outside of bankruptcy a Union contract cannot be waived or altered unless it's ratified by it's members.

[Bunkei]

Just a few observations:

1) Any of the automakers filing for Chapter 11, would be a fiscal suicide. Public perceptions says that you do not buy from an automaker that's in bankruptcy (even though that is a flawed argument)

2) I happen to think that the Automakers WILL get the money they're after. What we're seeing is political theater--on both sides. On one hand, you have the CEOs trying to "appease" the public by foregoing their salaries (even though they've been paid tens of millions in bonuses year after year) and selling their private jets. On the other hand, you have the politicians who owe, at least in part, something to the "special interests" that got them to where there are. I can imagine that there are big unions who would be negatively affected by the collapse of Ford/GM/Chrysler; the same ones that have been supportive of some of these politicians' election campaigns.

3) In the unlikely event that they do go into bankruptcy, that might hurt some of you here who are opposed to the bailout. The economy is interconnected, and it's naive to think that only the suppliers will be affected.

4) No matter what the decision, someone loses. If there's anything to be said here, it's humans, beyond a shadow of a doubt, are incapable of ruling themselves with any great degree of success. No matter what kind of government or economy is tried, inevitably the majority suffers in some kind of way. Perhaps Eve should have left that fruit alone ...

[marcus1701]

I am for it....CEO of Ford is willing to sell his planes and work for 1$ next year. I am willing to take a chance on him. Jobs are on the line and economy is falling. When we keep buying imports Foreign countries economies increase. I love this country, and it's so sad to see the big 3 fall when they have great cars like the Z06 and mustang. I can't believe some of the people here are like....let them burn. I would buy a mustang to support them...unfortunately I know brand recognition is so important in this country and right now in this state of economy. Even if ford made a Prius with ford emblems, it still wouldn't sell because people think American cars suck. I for one am tired of seeing Europeans travel here calling us fat, and buying all our stuff for cheap.

[txusa03]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

Just a few observations:

3) In the unlikely event that they do go into bankruptcy, that might hurt some of you here who are opposed to the bailout. The economy is interconnected, and it's naive to think that only the suppliers will be affected.

I know it will affect me and everyone as well if the big 3 file for bankruptcy. Perfect simple example eveyone can understand, if big 3 goes under, we all pay a very high price for our next car as there will be less competition (basic concept of supply/demand). But it is a chance I am willing to go forward with and let thing fall where they may. This is life, the old fade away and the new come to life. Thing are not going to happen overnight but something else will come along once the big 3 fall and will organized, developed, and managed better.

[Couch]

Originally Posted by txusa03

they are also looking to close down several car dealers throughout the US. It is getting ugly and the union is shaking in their boots.

lol. Is it just me or does the guy that is touted as head of the UAW (the guy that keeps speaking) look like the biggest push over ever? How does he have any power?

[Crimson92]

You know i was against it for a long time

but if you take a step back and think about it. if we dont bail out these companies theyre going to go bankrupt for sure

if they go down, so do the dealers, do you know how many jobs that is?

we'll be in a depression for sure at that point

[nmulax]

Originally Posted by Crimson92

You know i was against it for a long time

but if you take a step back and think about it. if we dont bail out these companies theyre going to go bankrupt for sure

if they go down, so do the dealers, do you know how many jobs that is?

we'll be in a depression for sure at that point

Exactly.

This is less about the actual manufacturers and their direct employees. The widespread job-loss that would happen is the major issue. Or economy won't bottom out for another 6 months anyways - do we really want to turn a recession into a depression.

[ArmyBimmerDude]

Originally Posted by nmulax

Exactly.

This is less about the actual manufacturers and their direct employees. The widespread job-loss that would happen is the major issue. Or economy won't bottom out for another 6 months anyways - do we really want to turn a recession into a depression.

Exactly. If I remember right, the big three only develop the chassis and engine of their vehicles. EVERYTHING else comes from suppliers. It would be devastating if they were to fail.

[gshb]

but....bankruptcy doesnt mean stopping business. im no expert but, "In chapter 11, in most instances the debtor remains in control of its business operations as a "debtor in possession", and is subject to the oversight and jurisdiction of the court.[1] The court can grant complete or partial relief from most of the company's debts and its contracts. Sometimes, if the business's debts exceed its assets, then at the completion of bankruptcy the company's owners all end up without anything; all their rights and interests are ended and the company's creditors are left with ownership of the newly reorganized company."

there are a bunch of ancillary benefits for having chp. 11. bailout money might give the big 3 a second chance, but also means perpetuating legacy contracts with UAW and retirees. the bailout money wont 100% be used to make the cars better or the company run more efficient. i guess no one will know if the bailout money actually benefits the company, but change will come a lot slower.

[nmulax]

Yes - chapter 11 does allow more flexibility in terms or a restructure and contract rewrites...
BUT 60% of the country have commented that they would not be comfortable buying a car from a company going through bankruptcy.
Debt relief and new contracts are worthless if no-one will buy your product.

[gonzo]

CNBC 9pm CST cable tonight.

"Saving General Motors"

A portion of the show will be about the Camaro situation.

[gshb]

if the big 3 doesnt go bankrupt i dont think all of a sudden 60% of the country will go out and buy a big 3 car. people havent been buying big 3 for a while ever since the big 3 started sucking decades ago. in fact their market share is probably under 37% right now (http://www.carofthecentury.com/answe...are_plunge.htm). so 60% of america saying they wont buy a car from the big 3 means nothing. why subsidize cars no one is going to buy? it makes no sense. so that people can keep their jobs building cars no one wants?

[Couch]

Originally Posted by gonzo

CNBC 9pm CST cable tonight.

"Saving General Motors"

A portion of the show will be about the Camaro situation.

Did you manage to catch it?

[nmulax]

Originally Posted by gshb

if the big 3 doesnt go bankrupt i dont think all of a sudden 60% of the country will go out and buy a big 3 car. people havent been buying big 3 for a while ever since the big 3 started sucking decades ago. in fact their market share is probably under 37% right now (http://www.carofthecentury.com/answe...are_plunge.htm). so 60% of america saying they wont buy a car from the big 3 means nothing. why subsidize cars no one is going to buy? it makes no sense. so that people can keep their jobs building cars no one wants?

While it'd obviously help, they don't need 60% of the country to go out and buy their product... they just can't lose 60% of their current sales. You're right... their market share is under 37%. But, be aware that GM has the highest market share in the US.

November 2008 (2007) US Market Share:
GM 20.4% (22%)
Ford 15.8% (14.3%)
Chrysler 11.4% (13.7%)

Toyota 17.4% (16.7%)
Honda 10.2% (9.4%)
Nissan 6.2% (6.8%)

BMW 2% (2%)
source

So your blanket statement of "people havent been buying big 3 for a while ever since the big 3 started sucking decades ago." is without grounds. Oh, and if you don't think the Big 3 falling would hurt the imports as well, you're wrong. Many of the the imports being built here share suppliers with GM/Ford/Chrysler.

[Couch]

Originally Posted by nmulax

While it'd obviously help, they don't need 60% of the country to go out and buy their product... they just can't lose 60% of their current sales. You're right... their market share is under 37%. But, be aware that GM has the highest market share in the US.

November 2008 (2007) US Market Share:
GM 20.4% (22%)
Ford 15.8% (14.3%)
Chrysler 11.4% (13.7%)

Toyota 17.4% (16.7%)
Honda 10.2% (9.4%)
Nissan 6.2% (6.8%)

BMW 2% (2%)
source

So your blanket statement of "people havent been buying big 3 for a while ever since the big 3 started sucking decades ago." is without grounds. Oh, and if you don't think the Big 3 falling would hurt the imports as well, you're wrong. Many of the the imports being built here share suppliers with GM/Ford/Chrysler.

And a lot of people saying the big 3 are unreliable, blah blah blah comes from people who haven't ever owned one. Just like a large number of people who say BMW's aren't reliable.

They did say last night on the news that Chrysler is in the biggest hole. Both GM and Ford are bring products to the table that are catching the eyes of people who have never looked at either brand before. Chrysler is lagging far behind in that aspect.

[UltimateBMW]

Ford has excellent european models. I really don't understand why they haven't just boated some over here, and ran a few commercials to spark interest. I can respect that there might be some form of legal or standards issue perhaps. But it seems like the R&D to correct issues like this would pale in comparison to the sales they could get out of such a great car.

I'd happily consider buying a Ford Mondeo. (It would be quite ironic though, buying a Domestic brand that was imported...)

[UltimateBMW]

Originally Posted by nmulax

Exactly.

This is less about the actual manufacturers and their direct employees. The widespread job-loss that would happen is the major issue. Or economy won't bottom out for another 6 months anyways - do we really want to turn a recession into a depression.

The greater the depression, the bigger the upswing afterwards.

Even if it hurt my job in some form or another. I am still against the bailout.

[ENINTY]

[QUOTE=Bunkei;3750761]Just a few observations:

1) Any of the automakers filing for Chapter 11, would be a fiscal suicide. Public perceptions says that you do not buy from an automaker that's in bankruptcy (even though that is a flawed argument)

Don't we all fly on bankrupt airlines? Think about it.

[nmulax]

Originally Posted by ENINTY

Don't we all fly on bankrupt airlines? Think about it.

There's a big difference between paying $300 for a one time service; and paying $30k for a product you'll keep for years.