[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Spiff7

Oh I would definitely believe what a dealer and car salesman told me lol

Let me ask you this. Why would the sales person give a crap either way? Especially one that you are friends with? I mean it is what it is. Either the ceramic bezel Daytona sells more than the non-ceramic version or not. This is very simple. So when I ask my Rolex buddy who’s been doing it for a couple of decades, which version had more enthusiasm and more demand Sales he just answers the question. This isn’t rocket science. I understand you don’t like the answer with the M3 but it doesn’t change it from being true.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by RowanBuds

First, I'm not sure where your smart ass "smart ass" comment comes from, but there's no need for it, it's uncalled for, and I've got no idea who the hell you are. It's not cute, it's not endearing.

Second, I think you need to read my post again. It's not supporting ANY of your stance, yet you post as if it's in line with your potentially incorrect feelings on how the G8x are selling.

You can keep on believing what a dealership tells you because it supports your narratives, but the numbers shared (by a known insider…) don't.

So there's my (1) smart (2) ass comment. Smart as it's logical, ass as that's what I seem to be replying to.

I don’t think I’m going to engage someone that spins my words into something to create controversy. I’m done with you on this topic. You know exactly what I meant. Plus I wasn’t wrong.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I had to come back and add this. I mean you guys really really really really hate this car don’t you? I mean seething and frothing at the mouth hatred.

Originally Posted by Patton250

I don’t think I’m going to engage someone that spins my words into something to create controversy. I’m done with you on this topic. You know exactly what I meant. Plus I wasn’t wrong.

Chill, brother. Let's agree to distinguish 'personal taste' and 'different opinion' from 'hate'.

If you like a commodity or a service and order it, or if, for example, you consider your job or significant other the best in the world for you: that's fine; more power to you - you only die once, but you live everyday, so better make the best of it.

If a commodity or service ain't your cup of tea and you don't order it, or if, for example, someone else's job or significant other ain't appealing or interesting for/to you: that's fine too.

And about figures. The fact that a painting sells for millions of dollars or that millions of reproductions of a painting have already been sold worldwide, does by no means restrict you from considering "not feeling it, and not feeling sorry for that".

No prizes to win here.

[RowanBuds]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I don’t think I’m going to engage someone that spins my words into something to create controversy. I’m done with you on this topic. You know exactly what I meant. Plus I wasn’t wrong.

disagreed. no spin, you made the commentary on getting a smart ass reply. I don't know what the hell you meant because you're coming to a place that has statistics with anecdotes; they're not entitled the same validity.

Plus, facts / feelings; your feelings and what you're hearing from 1 person are not indicative of the broader market here, and ynguldyn has come with receipts.

Thanks for not further engaging, the hole is getting too deep.

Originally Posted by overfreeze

I don't think you understand what facts are...

[Tallest]

Originally Posted by giphlag

I hear you on the recycling issue but early signs of movement in that sector have me cautiously optimistic. For instance:

1) American Battery Technology Company just raised ~$40M
2) Redwood Materials got a $50M investment from Ford
3) Li-Cycle received a $100M investment from Koch Investments Group
4) Battery Resourcers raised $70M in funding to expand to Europe

So that's nearly $260M in new funding for these 4 companies alone. I think you need to give this a little bit of time

Encouraging indeed. I hope they sort it out, its the only thing that sort of bugs me. I usually bought all ICE cars as used. But with EV I want to buy new and may be it is dumb, but I feel like with my low mileage I can make the thing last way more and Ill make sure to buy something that gonna look good for my taste for at least 5 years+. And then we can see how reliable they are. As my Porsche dealer told me, Cayenne leaks oil and Taycan and Panamera Hybrids have some electrical issues. None can be trouble free, still a car.

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

After Initial D and Wangan Midnight, we now have MF Ghost

Many youngsters will follow this manga (just like I and many around me followed Initial D) and end up as a 'petrolhead', literally

Plot:
The series takes place in the 2020s, where self-driving electric cars have replaced internal combustion ones. However, in Japan, there is a large organization called MFG, founded by Ryosuke Takahashi (from the Initial D series), who does street racing with internal combustion cars...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF_Gho...bustion%20cars.

You will never get rid of the need for speed!

This whole situation reminds me of the movie Demolition Man.

Where the above ground neutered and controlled population goes around in their teslas and does the covid air handshakes(im sure they are all vaxxed too).

Meanwhile the real bunch are driven underground and have their hot rods and ICE cars, and just dgaf about the new trends amd predictions and climate rules!

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

Take a look at a documentary called The Dark Side of Green Energy



then wake up

Take a look at hundreds of other documentaries that make the opposite case. Better yet, read some peer reviewed research papers…

Anyone can create a documentary about anything. I bet there are ones about how great smoking is for your health as well. LOL.

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by FCX5

Take a look at hundreds of other documentaries that make the opposite case. Better yet, read some peer reviewed research papers…

Anyone can create a documentary about anything. I bet there are ones about how great smoking is for your health as well. LOL.

What i do know is it creates more pollution and uses more resources in the creation of EV than the traditional,

So if you think you are somehow fighting pollution by getting a EV, thats a false assumption , its actually the opposite

And dont even mention how old used up batteries are disposed of, they are a toxic threat to the environment way worse than burning fossil fuels

[giphlag]

Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs

What i do know is it creates more pollution and uses more resources in the creation of EV than the traditional,

So if you think you are somehow fighting pollution by getting a EV, thats a false assumption , its actually the opposite

And dont even mention how old used up batteries are disposed of, they are a toxic threat to the environment way worse than burning fossil fuels

You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own "facts". None of what you just said is rooted in any scientific research or peer reviewed studies.

You may not like this transition to electric transport but that doesn't make it the wrong thing to do. So I'd rather you just say, "hey, this crap is garbage and I'm not gonna buy an EV" than pretend you have some strong, international-backed research on how somehow EVs are worse for the environment.

ICE cars have gotten infinitely more efficient and cleaner over many decades but somehow EVs have to be the ultimate clean-machine from the get-go?? Do you know how much research and funding is going into battery technology? They are just getting started.

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by giphlag

You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own "facts". None of what you just said is rooted in any scientific research or peer reviewed studies.

You may not like this transition to electric transport but that doesn't make it the wrong thing to do. So I'd rather you just say, "hey, this crap is garbage and I'm not gonna buy an EV" than pretend you have some strong, international-backed research on how somehow EVs are worse for the environment.

ICE cars have gotten infinitely more efficient and cleaner over many decades but somehow EVs have to be the ultimate clean-machine from the get-go?? Do you know how much research and funding is going into battery technology? They are just getting started.

What your not looking at is your new electric EV platform is built on the fossil fuel platform.

Ie. there would be no batteries for you unless there was huge trucks and caterpillars runnung on diesel mining the crap out of the mountain and bringing it over it on ships running off fossil fuels across the ocean

You couldnt exist without that underlying platform.

When tesla has to test their new roadster at the nurburing they have to bring in portable diesel generstors to charge your precious EV

Its just hypocrisy built on layers of hypocrisy.

You act like electricity is some infinite resource that gets extracted from the ether, no man, theres alot of fossil fuels that get burnt to generate that too

Its a phony attempt to cajole bleeding heart yuppies into smart city grids where, with a flick of a switch, they got you by the balls!

No matter what, with my ICE, I can go anywhere anytime i please at the drop of a hat, and nobody can do nothing about it. Its called being FREE. Tell me if you can do that with your EV

[mbanck]

Originally Posted by Tallest

BMW has iX and i3 with charger on wrong" side for many and i4... Till 2025.

BMW also has the iX3 in the rest of the world.

It looks like the i7 and the iX1 will debut in 2022/2023, and the i5/iX2 in 2023/2024 - those aren't niche cars anymore.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by FCX5

Take a look at hundreds of other documentaries that make the opposite case. Better yet, read some peer reviewed research papers…

Anyone can create a documentary about anything. I bet there are ones about how great smoking is for your health as well. LOL.

Maaaan

you've got to be ignorant or delusional not to acknowledge we are raping the planet with removing FINITE resources at an alarming rate such as lithium, vanadium, Palladium, copper, ..... with such a high cost to the environment with the questionable mining practices in play to extract such minerals ..... to make batteries that Afterall get charged by electricity that is generated by gas or coal-fired power plants

..... in order to not burn fossil fuels in ICE engines that have become several hundred percent more efficient than those produced a mere 10 or 15 years ago

aaaaaand we have not yet quite quit the ICE engines, just imagine how bad it'll get when 2030 comes around ... but thank God, we've got Elon to mine Mars and bring all the lithium you need back to Earth once we've depleted all natural resources and RARE-EARTH minerals to exhaustion - after all, there is a reason they're called RARE

To top that, it is a known fact that the largest portion of pollutants are generated in agriculture and industries pumping out garbage you don't need but buy because capitalism forces you to without you knowing it. There are 25 million people in Australia but over 200 million cows and sheep whose methane release everytime they break wind could run ICE engines for millennia.

Manufacturing and agriculture produce over 80% of greenhouse gases that are choking the planet, NOT ICE ENGINES.

Do you not see the irony? Course not, you're wearing Rose-coloured glasses

BTW, have you given it any thought about how most of these batteries cannot be recycled with current technologies? Best not think about that I guess, just keep the Rose-coloured glasses on and keep smiling

[giphlag]

Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs

What your not looking at is your new electric EV platform is built on the fossil fuel platform.

Ie. there would be no batteries for you unless there was huge trucks and caterpillars runnung on diesel mining the crap out of the mountain and bringing it over it on ships running off fossil fuels across the ocean

You couldnt exist without that underlying platform.

When tesla has to test their new roadster at the nurburing they have to bring in portable diesel generstors to charge your precious EV

Its just hypocrisy built on layers of hypocrisy.

You act like electricity is some infinite resource that gets extracted from the ether, no man, theres alot of fossil fuels that get burnt to generate that too

Its a phony attempt to cajole bleeding heart yuppies into smart city grids where, with a flick of a switch, they got you by the balls!

No matter what, with my ICE, I can go anywhere anytime i please at the drop of a hat, and nobody can do nothing about it. Its called being FREE. Tell me if you can do that with your EV

Come on man. Roadster? Diesel generators?
Tesla has had a Supercharger at the Nürburgring for over 3 years and hasn't tested a Roadster there in god knows how long.

Your arguments are anecdotal and from many years ago.
Caterpillar and many others are already working on electric mining equipment they are putting into production at Nouveau Monde Graphite in Montreal (just one example).

Are there inefficiencies? Of course! Is it a perfect system already? No!
And it doesn't need to be since we are at the beginning of it.

What do you suggest we do instead?

[Tallest]

Originally Posted by mbanck

BMW also has the iX3 in the rest of the world.

It looks like the i7 and the iX1 will debut in 2022/2023, and the i5/iX2 in 2023/2024 - those aren't niche cars anymore.

ix3 is a RWD car with paltry range. From this list i5 would be very interesting to look at (unless it has the chopped nose holes design, in which case no thanks). Lets see what they come up with but im not holding my breath at the moment. They wasted time on those carbon tubs, and now back to aluminum. I really hope new mass market releases arent as edgy as current ix and i4 from the front.

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by giphlag

Come on man. Roadster? Diesel generators?
Tesla has had a Supercharger at the Nürburgring for over 3 years and hasn't tested a Roadster there in god knows how long.

Your arguments are anecdotal and from many years ago.
Caterpillar and many others are already working on electric mining equipment they are putting into production at Nouveau Monde Graphite in Montreal (just one example).

Are there inefficiencies? Of course! Is it a perfect system already? No!
And it doesn't need to be since we are at the beginning of it.

What do you suggest we do instead?

Mining is not anecdotal, do you understand what your saying? How can you electrify your fleet in the middle of the desert or the jungle?? Or the ocean??

You dont need to do anything right now, an investigator looking for a crime , you should just relax and not get behind bad ideas and trends. You also need to understand how things are implemented and disseminated. Your whole worry that the earth is going to run out of this or that itll be ok. Just live with normal consumption and things will work out. Heres a lollipop.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

Maaaan

you've got to be ignorant or delusional not to acknowledge we are raping the planet with removing FINITE resources at an alarming rate such as lithium, vanadium, Palladium, copper, ..... with such a high cost to the environment with the questionable mining practices in play to extract such minerals ..... to make batteries that Afterall get charged by electricity that is generated by gas or coal-fired power plants

..... [COLOR="DarkRed"]in order to not burn fossil fuels in ICE engines that have become several hundred percent more efficient than those produced a mere 10 or 15 years ago[/COLOR]

aaaaaand we have not yet quite quit the ICE engines, just imagine how bad it'll get when 2030 comes around ... but thank God, we've got Elon to mine Mars and bring all the lithium you need back to Earth once we've depleted all natural resources and RARE-EARTH minerals to exhaustion - after all, there is a reason they're called RARE

To top that, it is a known fact that the largest portion of pollutants are generated in agriculture and industries pumping out garbage you don't need but buy because capitalism forces you to without you knowing it. There are 25 million people in Australia but over 200 million cows and sheep whose methane release everytime they break wind could run ICE engines for millennia.

Manufacturing and agriculture produce over 80% of greenhouse gases that are choking the planet, NOT ICE ENGINES.

Do you not see the irony? Course not, you're wearing Rose-coloured glasses

BTW, have you given it any thought about how most of these batteries cannot be recycled with current technologies? Best not think about that I guess, just keep the Rose-coloured glasses on and keep smiling

Calm down. Looks like your mind is made up and you're looking for validation…I am happy for you. I still drive a gas guzzling ICE FWIW. LOL.

[giphlag]

Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs

Mining is not anecdotal, do you understand what your saying? How can you electrify your fleet in the middle of the desert or the jungle?? Or the ocean??

You dont need to do anything right now, an investigator looking for a crime , you should just relax and not get behind bad ideas and trends. You also need to understand how things are implemented and disseminated. Your whole worry that the earth is going to run out of this or that itll be ok. Just live with normal consumption and things will work out. Heres a lollipop.

You're not worried about the planet or the resources we use up, I get it. So then why do you give a crap about the EV aspect. They are just doing the same stuff in your eyes, no? Nothing to see here...move along.

Funny thing is, at the end of the day it doesn't matter what you and I think. The industry has decided and hilariously it wasn't even governments that had to dictate it to them because, guess what, they are all as corrupt and useless as can be.

Let's enjoy the last gas cars while we can.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs

What i do know is it creates more pollution and uses more resources in the creation of EV than the traditional,

So if you think you are somehow fighting pollution by getting a EV, thats a false assumption , its actually the opposite

And dont even mention how old used up batteries are disposed of, they are a toxic threat to the environment way worse than burning fossil fuels

Straight and to the point from Yale. Not that it looks like anything can change your mind at this point. I've been there...because your already 'know' what you 'want' to know. LOL

https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2...limate-change/

It's the opinion of https://yaleclimateconnections.org/our-team/

[kyrix1st]

Hybrid is the clear future but I have my doubts on whether electric cars are it, from environmental and safety perspective. On the other hand, forgoing hybrid DCT development was likely the worst decision in the recent decade of M.

For unknown reasons, it seemed like MF wanted M cars like an Aston Martin judging from his interviews. Funny though, AM are the ones producing hybrid cars with DCT now..

[iwant335i]

Originally Posted by KoenG

It's not google translated. It says what it says: there will be a M only car like the M1 was in the past.

Based on M Vision?

[swagon]

Getting sick of this EV talk derailing almost every thread.

Originally Posted by nerdogray

I frequent a lot of boards, and none have so many constituents that love to espouse their progressiveness as this one.

Ain't that the truth.

Originally Posted by giphlag

The electrification of every product line at pretty much every automaker is now a done deal whether we like it or not.

Yeah. Germany is re-tooling, re-training, investing in battery supply chains, more and more customers are choosing PHEVs or BEVs. But you know why?

I can assure you that a lot of, if not most, non-car people in Western Europe could not gives less of a fuck about saving the planet by driving a 60+k premium electric vehicle.

They do so because the local government incentives and corporate decisions have basically forced them. Germany's government, I think, is now giving nine grand to EV buyers. Cash on the hood. The UK's got a lot of tax incentives for private and corporate buyers. This is how they're ramping up the sales of EVs. And the rest of Europe, eastbound of Germany? The EV share is somewhere between 0-2%... Try find me a Tesla & Co. on the streets of rural post-Soviet countries.

And fellow enthusiast forum members on here who preach in the EV church are all about EVs because they're dumb fast. If they didn't make them nauseous during launch control, the same people would be bashing them for being boring and pointless.

Also, car manufacturers are all about electrification because in the coming couple decades, it is going to be much cheaper for them to manufacture an electric vehicle than an ICE car. A combustion engine is the most expensive part of a vehicle, these shared EV platform are only gonna make it all cheaper.

Anything for profit, you know. And right now, it's profitable and fashionable to be 'green.'

That's why.

The same EV customers also have got the means to travel around the world in jumbo jets that emit fucktonnes of emissions.

COP26 leaders have taken over a hundred private jets to fly to Glasgow for the summit. The same people who are on the forefront of this push from ICE to EV. The irony.

And y'all forget that these 'green' passenger cars are transported to your dealers by jumbo jets, 'dirty' diesel trucks or ancient smokey vessels...

Point is, there are a lot of other ways in which we all could ensure our Planet Earth stays somewhat healthy in the long-term future. Starts with picking your litter around your home and ends with sustainable transportation.

However, sadly, it is easier to financially bully the average Joe Schmoe into buying an EV than to change the general mindset of him and his family to ensure they leave less rubbish behind them in their day-to-day lives.

Originally Posted by thaalrasha

Also from latest summit they are at last find out that Methane is much worse than Co2 (between 5 times and 80 times depending who you ask) and cars represent only a fragment of Co2 emissions, when people actually tackles what matter most, annoying people with private cars should no longer be a priority...

And China, India, Russia did NOT sign the pledge to slash methane emissions. Arguably, the most important countries in this scenario. Pathetic as fuck, mate.

Originally Posted by Patton250

Hybrids make a lot more sense than EV considering our current infrastructure and the complications revolving around changing it to support all EV.

Yep, somehow, the world has forgotten about hybrids. Even in an hybrid X5 with a B58 in it, it is well possible to drive mostly on electric, depending on the usage. Hybrid BMWs are selling very well in Germany.

I think BMW's strategy is pragmatic and definitely not 'lagging.' Yeah, they're lagging in the department of building pointlessly fast and overly expensive halo luxury EVs.

There's also a reason why Toyota does not have a BEV. And why is no one talking shit about them not diving into the BEV world?!

Originally Posted by Tallest

The point I made over EVs being not as green as people think is simple:
- there are energy losses which you take when charge EV (as it travels from powerplant, to grid, through transformer, to your socket)
- there are issues with battery recycling on massive scale in 10 years but we are simply told that they will be used to store energy (may be in some advanced western part of society, but in most cases I can tell you what will happen - Western Europe and USA will be selling these batteries with cars in them to Africa and poorer parts of the world, as almost gifts, like they do today with solar panels - and leave the recycling problem there, not at home). And yes, I think this is dodgy gift, but this is what has been always done by richer countries, and especially last 100 years+. Corruption in poorer countries certainly not helpful, but we also will forbid them to mine fossil fuels and get richer (instead, we offer them our left overs). This is sketchy but no one thinks about this. It is easier that way I suppose...
- there will be new better technologies making batteries last longer and be more efficient which will mitigate those above issues of course but not exponentially. Solar panels no longer improve so fast.

Remember, to recycle a battery you need to rip it apart and separate cobalt, nickel etc. It is currently a lot cheaper (5x or so) to keep mining cobalt (especially in africa, child labour is a big issue). A lot of battery recycling taking place in india looks horrendous if you bother to look. People by hand taking things apart for next to nothing.

Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs

What i do know is it creates more pollution and uses more resources in the creation of EV than the traditional,

So if you think you are somehow fighting pollution by getting a EV, thats a false assumption , its actually the opposite

And dont even mention how old used up batteries are disposed of, they are a toxic threat to the environment way worse than burning fossil fuels

Originally Posted by FCX5

Straight and to the point from Yale. Not that it looks like anything can change your mind at this point. I've been there...because your already 'know' what you 'want' to know. LOL

https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2...limate-change/

It's the opinion of https://yaleclimateconnections.org/our-team/

Some very good and very valid points regarding the supply chain and manufacturing being definitely very dirty and unethical - child labour, mining minerals in very volatile regions, coal plants, etc.

However, having said and all the above, the overall well-to-wheel emissions of a mid-size BEV are now reported to be better than those of an average mid-sized ICE car, re attached graph.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by swagon

Getting sick of this EV talk derailing almost every thread.



Ain't that the truth.



Yeah. Germany is re-tooling, re-training, investing in battery supply chains, more and more customers are choosing PHEVs or BEVs. But you know why?

I can assure you that a lot of, if not most, non-car people in Western Europe could not gives less of a fuck about saving the planet by driving a 60+k premium electric vehicle.

They do so because the local government incentives and corporate decisions have basically forced them. Germany's government, I think, is now giving nine grand to EV buyers. Cash on the hood. The UK's got a lot of tax incentives for private and corporate buyers. This is how they're ramping up the sales of EVs. And the rest of Europe, eastbound of Germany? The EV share is somewhere between 0-2%... Try find me a Tesla & Co. on the streets of rural post-Soviet countries.

And fellow enthusiast forum members on here who preach in the EV church are all about EVs because they're dumb fast. If they didn't make them nauseous during launch control, the same people would be bashing them for being boring and pointless.

Also, car manufacturers are all about electrification because in the coming couple decades, it is going to be much cheaper for them to manufacture an electric vehicle than an ICE car. A combustion engine is the most expensive part of a vehicle, these shared EV platform are only gonna make it all cheaper.

Anything for profit, you know. And right now, it's profitable and fashionable to be 'green.'

That's why.

The same EV customers also have got the means to travel around the world in jumbo jets that emit fucktonnes of emissions.

COP26 leaders have taken over a hundred private jets to fly to Glasgow for the summit. The same people who are on the forefront of this push from ICE to EV. The irony.

And y'all forget that these 'green' passenger cars are transported to your dealers by jumbo jets, 'dirty' diesel trucks or ancient smokey vessels...

Point is, there are a lot of other ways in which we all could ensure our Planet Earth stays somewhat healthy in the long-term future. Starts with picking your litter around your home and ends with sustainable transportation.

However, sadly, it is easier to financially bully the average Joe Schmoe into buying an EV than to change the general mindset of him and his family to ensure they leave less rubbish behind them in their day-to-day lives.



And China, India, Russia did NOT sign the pledge to slash methane emissions. Arguably, the most important countries in this scenario. Pathetic as fuck, mate.



Yep, somehow, the world has forgotten about hybrids. Even in an hybrid X5 with a B58 in it, it is well possible to drive mostly on electric, depending on the usage. Hybrid BMWs are selling very well in Germany.

I think BMW's strategy is pragmatic and definitely not 'lagging.' Yeah, they're lagging in the department of building pointlessly fast and overly expensive halo luxury EVs.

There's also a reason why Toyota does not have a BEV. And why is no one talking shit about them not diving into the BEV world?!







Some very good and very valid points regarding the supply chain and manufacturing being definitely very dirty and unethical - child labour, mining minerals in very volatile regions, coal plants, etc.

However, having said and all the above, the overall well-to-wheel emissions of a mid-size BEV are now reported to be better than those of an average mid-sized ICE car, re attached graph.

Best post on this entire thread. You should definitely mic drop.