[Neusser]

Originally Posted by scotthilly

I support this. I think BMW still has an edge in outright handling and performance and numbers, it’s the feeling and feedback that’s gone, and gone to a huge degree. Basically any Mazda, Cadillac sedan, Porsche, Honda, Acura, etc, have better things like steering feedback and chassis rotation.

BMW is still the champ of dynamic capability, it’s the feeling that it elicits where they fall behind someone like Cadillac (Blackwing) or Porsche.

I agree to a point. Modern BMWs definitely have less steering feedback and there is greater noise cancellation.

That said, there isn't much you can do to electric steering racks. I run my tires at a lower pressure (2.2 bar front, and 2.0 rear) which definitely helps with the steering (and handling), but I am not sure what else one could do other than stiffen various bushings.

I've not driven a modern car with an electric rack that feels all that connected.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by mirob

/thread

I agree for the most part, aside from the Macan or Cayenne being any kind of 5 series competitor. SUVs are a different category and don't compete on dynamics due to fundamental issues in the chassis that can't be resolved.

BMW is definitely making some of the best vehicles it has ever made. I find most of the line up quite attractive, both in and out.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Neusser

I agree for the most part, aside from the Macan or Cayenne being any kind of 5 series competitor. SUVs are a different category and don't compete on dynamics due to fundamental issues in the chassis that can't be resolved.

BMW is definitely making some of the best vehicles it has ever made. I find most of the line up quite attractive, both in and out.

The macan and cayenne were being compared to the x3 and x5. Not the 5 series. I mentioned the panamera as a potential 5 series competitor but even that's a stretch.

[NickyC]

I thought my G82 was certainly a better all around car than all my F8x models. For me however, the slight boost in performance (had a model launch Comp, not Xdrive model which is where the generational performance boost is felt) for me didn’t make up for what I just couldn’t get past in the looks department. G82 was much better planted than even my current F82 CS, it was nice not having the wheels spin through the first two gears. The car also hid the weight penalty well and the S58 was of course fantastic.

Sort of why I’m so sour. I liked the way the car drove, but to me no matter how fast it was it could never outrun the ugly exterior. For me the interior was a tossup, I prefer the analog gauges and layout of the F8x, but the G8x carbon buckets are incredible. Once again subjective, and I can certainly understand why some like the newer cars.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by scotthilly

How about the M3?! The F80 was in numerous comparison tests where, on driving dynamics, it finished last compared to the Giulia Quad, C63, and ATS in C&D. Motortrend said "The M3 was the most clinical, the most removed". Let's not discuss when Motortrend said they'd take a Camaro SS over an M4 any day of the week!

1) It didn't finish last.
2) I'm not talking about the F80. I wasn't a big fan of the F80. I'm talking about the G80.

Originally Posted by scotthilly

The G80 was in a comparison test with the Giulia Quad recently and it finished... wait for it.. "The M3 dominates most performance metrics, but the Giulia isn't far off and it has a closer connection to the driver". That's back to back gens that are being crushed for lack of involvement when that was previously BMW's calling card.

"crushed" While I can agree that dynamically the Alfa offers a more raw experience - it fails as a car beyond that. And that's why nobody buys them. By the way the CT4V-BW that I mentioned which arguably offers a better dynamic driving experience? It came in 2nd to the G80 in a motor trend comparison - since you like to reference magazine results so much.

Originally Posted by scotthilly

Plus, you're further proving my point when you reference Porsche. They don't make much that compares to bmw, but the e90 m3 was so good that it invoked the comparison.

Just because you see magazines making comparisons (they'll compare anything they think will get views) doesn't mean they're competitors. We've seen the G80 compared to the 911 as well (Hell Car Magazine UK did a comparison between the G80 and a 911 and more or less called it a draw). But the fact is Porsche doesn't make direct competitors to BMW outside of potentially their SUVs, and even then they're significantly more expensive.

Originally Posted by scotthilly

Once again, look at the M Engines from being borderline exotics with personality to now becoming twin turbo inline 6 and v8's.

So is that better or worse than the competition (Mercedes) replacing their V8s with overly complicated 4 bangers? Because BMW is certainly getting worse than its competition right?

Originally Posted by scotthilly

Enthusiasts are NOT the entire market, we're an insanely small subsection. If we were bigger, way more people would own things like XE's, Giulia's, G70's, etc, etc.

I'm not so sure... seems those people are still choosing to buy the m340i or the M3. You know what's even a smaller subsection than enthusiasts? People who think BMW has gotten worse.

Originally Posted by scotthilly

there's a reason every single auto journalist talks about BMW "losing feel" or "becoming more mass market" or "losing specialness". They don't say it about anyone else.

You sure about that? In a world where Mercedes is going 4 cylinder, you sure you haven't heard auto journalists talking about the C63 losing its specialness? You will only ever hear this with cars that have history and journalists yearn for the years with hydraulic steering and naturally aspirated motors. You don't hear it with the Giulia because there's only one generation of Giulia (which is being discontinued btw.... so much for specialness).

I agree that some of the rawness has been lost with all this refinement and luxury. BMW also seems to be saving some of the rawness for its limited models (M4 CSL, M5 CS, etc). But all cars are trending that way in general. I do wish my M3 had a bit more rawness to it. The chassis is superb, the steering is actually pretty good (for a modern BMW), it's got tons of power, and it's actually one of the lightest cars in its class (the RS5 and the C63 are significantly heavier). I've actually replaced some of the rubber bushings with stiffer bushings to get a more direct mechanical feel. I'm in the process of replacing the transmission carrier bushing with a stiffer one as well to get crisper shifting with a more gated feel. So I understand the want for that rawness. But to say that BMW is getting worse while its competitors are getting better is just a ridiculous statement.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by NickyC

I thought my G82 was certainly a better all around car than all my F8x models. For me however, the slight boost in performance (had a model launch Comp, not Xdrive model which is where the generational performance boost is felt) for me didn’t make up for what I just couldn’t get past in the looks department. G82 was much better planted than even my current F82 CS, it was nice not having the wheels spin through the first two gears. The car also hid the weight penalty well and the S58 was of course fantastic.

Sort of why I’m so sour. I liked the way the car drove, but to me no matter how fast it was it could never outrun the ugly exterior. For me the interior was a tossup, I prefer the analog gauges and layout of the F8x, but the G8x carbon buckets are incredible. Once again subjective, and I can certainly understand why some like the newer cars.

And I understand the argument regarding looks. That's purely a personal feeling and I think it's reasonable - if you can't stand the way it looks, you're probably gonna have a hard time accepting it.

For me, it's obviously objectively an excellent car, and I happen to like the looks - after a few mods - stock I'm not a fan of it, the stance is atrocious and accentuates the grill in all the wrong ways.... but once you fix the stance, get an aftermarket grill and some wheels, I think it looks insanely good and has tons of road presence. Although some people might call that putting lipstick on a pig

[scotthilly]

@ Mirob & wtwo3 -

1) It finished last in dynamics by far. 21/25 for fun to drive while others got 23 and 25, and 49 out of 60 on dynamics while others got 51, 55, and 55.
2) G80 is more competent than F80 and receiving better praise, but didn't solve any of the disconnected feeling IMO.
3) That Car Magazine UK rewiew, along with the Motortrend one, don't cite much about the specifics of the cars against eachother. They mention the Cadillac, or Alfa, had more charisma and were fun but there's not much direct feedback which makes it tough to judge. I also rate them and Motortrend as more of the casual drivers while C&D, EVO, and Road&Track are higher quality.
And to me, it still doesn't matter if bmw is getting worse or competitors are better. They simply don't have the uniqueness and prowess that they have previously, and that comes down to the feedback they provide. Look at this quote from EVO in the giulia vs m3 comparison:

"So that’s all very neat then. Except that this is evo, so… ‘From a professional road tester’s perspective the BMW trumps the Alfa, but as an enthusiast I know that in my heart I love the Giulia,’ says Dickie, glancing fondly at the Giulia, streaked in unseasonal road salt. Jordan calls the big red one ‘joyful’ despite giving the nod to the M3 overall ‘by a hair’.

The appeal of the M3 grows on you, and will probably continue to do so over time, but having the Quadrifoglio in your life is to possess something that feels truly exotic, that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside every time you see and hear it, that brings the task of driving for fun truly alive. You’ll always look for the long, interesting way home in the Alfa, in a way you only occasionally would in the others. That’s not just the hallmark of a great car, it’s the stuff of an evo legend.


Once again, I stand by my statement. I never said BMW was bad. I never said they didn't make objectively fantastic cars. Could your G80 absolutely cook an E90 M3? Could an M340i absolutely beat down on a 335i? Could an XM lap faster than a Cayenne S? Yes, Yes, and Yes. It is not about numbers and speed and road tests where I'm criticizing BMW, it's in feedback. And if you don't think so, you should probably spend more time in an E chassis platform

I said the below to start the thread, and I maintain it despite your efforts to show how M3's have won comparison tests or competitors are bad etc etc:

"OP is right. BMW is still a good manufacturer but not at all special like they once were - that specialness was from the feeling, not from numbers."

[scotthilly]

Originally Posted by Neusser

I agree to a point. Modern BMWs definitely have less steering feedback and there is greater noise cancellation.

That said, there isn't much you can do to electric steering racks. I run my tires at a lower pressure (2.2 bar front, and 2.0 rear) which definitely helps with the steering (and handling), but I am not sure what else one could do other than stiffen various bushings.

I've not driven a modern car with an electric rack that feels all that connected.

My mom has a 2018 X1 that unironically has the best steering of any bmw I've experienced. Cadillac's are good. Alfa Romeo's are my favorite. My dad had a Stelvio and it's my favorite EPAS steering today.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by scotthilly

that specialness was from the feeling, not from numbers."

This is what I agree with. My point is that to say BMW is getting worse while competitors are getting better is a ridiculous statement to make.

You still can have specialness in BMW - I find my G80 to absolutely be special and gives me joy every time I take it out. Fun factor is there 10/10. The ability to row my own gears, paired with a twin turbo S58 which builds power progressively and with the satisfaction similar to a naturally aspirated motor, and steering/handling which inspires me to want to take corners aggressively. In fact I just picked up my daughter from school and took the M3 out and it was an absolute delight.

I also previously owned an m340i and that was more consistent with what you're describing - it's fast but not necessarily "fun". But then again, nothing else in the same class as the m340i is any more fun.

[scotthilly]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

This is what I agree with. My point is that to say BMW is getting worse while competitors are getting better is a ridiculous statement to make.

You still can have specialness in BMW - I find my G80 to absolutely be special and gives me joy every time I take it out. Fun factor is there 10/10. The ability to row my own gears, paired with a twin turbo S58 which builds power progressively and with the satisfaction similar to a naturally aspirated motor, and steering/handling which inspires me to want to take corners aggressively. In fact I just picked up my daughter from school and took the M3 out and it was an absolute delight.

I also previously owned an m340i and that was more consistent with what you're describing - it's fast but not necessarily "fun". But then again, nothing else in the same class as the m340i is any more fun.

Fair enough man, enjoyed the banter! I will say I do really respect that bmw puts a stick in the g80. And despite some of my complaints - I'm someone who wants a manual sedan from within the last 10 years. My only options are the M3, and the Blackwing twins. So while I laud competitors like Alfa, they aren't going the extra mile.

I have a friend with a 330i thp msport, which, aside from the engine, is identical to an m340i. It is nowhere near as satisfying as honestly even the F chassis cars. I have some, but not tons of time in a G80 though I actually did enjoy the F80 I drove a lot.

I think, and I'm curious how you feel, that where BMW suffered the most is in the basic cars. That c&d test where a 430i xdrive vs a stinger and a5 and the 4 series got last... brutal. I love this article so much - https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-65-1-roa0813/ - and perfectly encapsulated my thoughts. I highly reccomend this video on youtube too (Zygrene, the creator, is awesome) -

.

You used to have a base 325i or 330i and it'd be still be a good sport sedan. I'm now in the place where I choose Hyundai products (g70) or base ct4's on a 330i.. and it makes me a bit depressed. And that's where my frustration lies too... okay, the g80 is good, and it's 90k. Normal-ish people can afford a 3 series, but you've got to really be doing well to make an M3. And that's sad.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

And I understand the argument regarding looks. That's purely a personal feeling and I think it's reasonable - if you can't stand the way it looks, you're probably gonna have a hard time accepting it.

For me, it's obviously objectively an excellent car, and I happen to like the looks - after a few mods - stock I'm not a fan of it, the stance is atrocious and accentuates the grill in all the wrong ways.... but once you fix the stance, get an aftermarket grill and some wheels, I think it looks insanely good and has tons of road presence. Although some people might call that putting lipstick on a pig

Agreed! Hope you enjoy your beast in good health for years to come!

[mirob]

Originally Posted by NickyC

I thought my G82 was certainly a better all around car than all my F8x models. For me however, the slight boost in performance (had a model launch Comp, not Xdrive model which is where the generational performance boost is felt) for me didn’t make up for what I just couldn’t get past in the looks department. G82 was much better planted than even my current F82 CS, it was nice not having the wheels spin through the first two gears. The car also hid the weight penalty well and the S58 was of course fantastic.

Sort of why I’m so sour. I liked the way the car drove, but to me no matter how fast it was it could never outrun the ugly exterior. For me the interior was a tossup, I prefer the analog gauges and layout of the F8x, but the G8x carbon buckets are incredible. Once again subjective, and I can certainly understand why some like the newer cars.

That's fair. The looks aren't everyone's cup of tea, understandably.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by scotthilly

My mom has a 2018 X1 that unironically has the best steering of any bmw I've experienced. Cadillac's are good. Alfa Romeo's are my favorite. My dad had a Stelvio and it's my favorite EPAS steering today.

It's still electric, even if you like it. Electric steering will never feel like hydraulic, as the technologies involved prohibit it.

I actually don't mind the steering in my G31, generally speaking--with one condition applied: with proper tire pressure, there is decent feel for an e-rack, and it's weighty even in comfort.

At sticker pressures it feels overly quick and nearly devoid of any road feedback. That said, the pressures they recommend are needed to meet fleet emissions goals.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by scotthilly

Normal-ish people can afford a 3 series, but you've got to really be doing well to make an M3. And that's sad.

Yes, M car pricing is a joke these days. Even my 540 stickered for over EUR 90k.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by mirob

That's fair. The looks aren't everyone's cup of tea, understandably.

Yessir! In all honestly as well, I’m sort of keeping an eye on the new M4 CS. Riviera Blue is monumental, and I really like the new shark fin headlights and laser tails. I think they go a ways to fixing some issues, so we shall see. I was so impressed by the upgrades on the F82 CS, I need to keep an open mind for the new model.

I hope you enjoy your car!

[mirob]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Yessir! In all honestly as well, I’m sort of keeping an eye on the new M4 CS. Riviera Blue is monumental, and I really like the new shark fin headlights and laser tails. I think they go a ways to fixing some issues, so we shall see. I was so impressed by the upgrades on the F82 CS, I need to keep an open mind for the new model.

I hope you enjoy your car!

Hell yeah man! I'm curious to see what they do with the CS. Like wtwo3 said, minor cosmetic mods can go a long way. I loved the way it looked but at the same time had a few things waiting for the car that I knew I wanted to change.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by scotthilly

Fair enough man, enjoyed the banter! I will say I do really respect that bmw puts a stick in the g80. And despite some of my complaints - I'm someone who wants a manual sedan from within the last 10 years. My only options are the M3, and the Blackwing twins. So while I laud competitors like Alfa, they aren't going the extra mile.

I have a friend with a 330i thp msport, which, aside from the engine, is identical to an m340i. It is nowhere near as satisfying as honestly even the F chassis cars. I have some, but not tons of time in a G80 though I actually did enjoy the F80 I drove a lot.

I think, and I'm curious how you feel, that where BMW suffered the most is in the basic cars. That c&d test where a 430i xdrive vs a stinger and a5 and the 4 series got last... brutal. I love this article so much - https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-65-1-roa0813/ - and perfectly encapsulated my thoughts. I highly reccomend this video on youtube too (Zygrene, the creator, is awesome) -

.

You used to have a base 325i or 330i and it'd be still be a good sport sedan. I'm now in the place where I choose Hyundai products (g70) or base ct4's on a 330i.. and it makes me a bit depressed. And that's where my frustration lies too... okay, the g80 is good, and it's 90k. Normal-ish people can afford a 3 series, but you've got to really be doing well to make an M3. And that's sad.

I have a Mini Cooper S with a b48 motor... it's an absolute blast to drive. Does that count as base BMW?

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I have a Mini Cooper S with a b48 motor... it's an absolute blast to drive. Does that count as base BMW?

well it may very well be the best current bimmer

[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by mirob

No but they indirectly require electric steering, which inherently has no real feedback. I can't speak to any of those as I haven't driven them but I've seen, read, and heard the reviews. I know that Porsche has mastered EPS. The rest? I doubt it's anything meaningfully better than what BMW is able to do. As far as unpredictable rotation goes, this is new to me. I'd love to hear more about it. Are you talking about snap oversteer?

My 2018 Chevy Suburban has better EPS than most of the F-chassis BMW loaners I ever drove (F10, F15, F30, F33).

I even still prefer it over our new G05 X5. It's appropriately weighted for what it is, has great on-center feel and precision, and instills confidence which you absolutely need when piloting a full-sized SUV down the road. I really don't like the variable weighting of the G05 rack, which constantly leaves you guessing. It weights up nicely at speed and for turns, but can occasionally feel a bit nervous or darty on center in sport, and too loose or relaxed in comfort. I hate the low speed lightness, and wish it would just stay more weighted, but this is what Asian market customers want, so BMW is trying to cater to both markets at the same time.

So all of these different steering modes in the BMW, none of which really feels quite right. My Suburban has one mode, which feels perfect and never leaves you guessing. I've read the same about some Mercedes vehicles getting it just right in one mode also.

Porsche is uncompromising and says go lift some weights if you can't turn the wheel, and they're not really mass marketed like BMW's are. Chevy isn't selling too many cars in China or Europe, so they weight them for 'Muricans. BMWs are fully global mass marketed cars, and so focus group compromise steering is what we get these days.

I'm over it. It is what it is, and I can just go take my E93 for a spin too. Just got summer tires put back on it finally.

[No one]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I have a Mini Cooper S with a b48 motor... it's an absolute blast to drive. Does that count as base BMW?

Only in a sad sense: it's FWD just as the current 1 Series. If FWD wasn't something I'd ABSOLUTELY hate to return to I'd (have) love(d) to consider a recent(/current?) Mini JCW (3 door, MT, of course) but "luckily"(?) I had an even more insurmountable reason to skip that.

[tturedraider]

Scott, a small correction. BMWNA has not dropped “The Ultimate Driving Machine”. That tagline came from Bob Lutz, of General Motors, when he spent time at BMW. BMW’s tagline in Europe has always been “Sheer Driving Pleasure”. I think this might explain some of our frustration. Americans like bold statements like “ultimate”, but I don’t think BMWAG has ever viewed themselves in such a stark way. I think they are much more focused on driving pleasure than Americans like to think.

Waqas, I hope you won’t be offended, but I have to call you out just a little. I think your lack of long time experience with owning BMWs is showing a little. I don’t think anyone will argue that the E46 ZHP was the pinnacle for the 3er. The E90 was objectively better in the vast majority of ways and its suspension was really good, but it lost some of the dynamism of the E46, especially the ZHP. If it hadn’t been for the big improvements with the N52 over the M54 I would not have chosen to give up my ZHP and move to the E90 330i. Also, the significant improvements in safety technology were a big reason I wanted an E90. The E90 is dynamically superior to the F30 in every way. For me the difference isn’t large enough that it bothers me, but it’s definitely there. For me the enhancements like the LCI F30 iDrive and other technological features make it worth it. Plus, the B58 and the ZF8. I would not have left my 2006 330i for the N55. The B58 was the key factor for me. That and the suspension and steering improvements that came with the LCI. I would not own a pre-LCI F30. As you know I was not pleased with the static 704 sport suspension on the G20, even though it has been favorably compared to the E90 sport suspension. My theory is the G20 sport suspension paired with xDrive makes it harsher than the E90 sport suspension. Maybe one day I’ll get to drive a rwd G20 M340i with the 704 and see if my theory is correct.

I have to mention one other thing about the G20. It is just too big for a 3er for me. Until the G20 I have always felt like the 3er proportions were pretty much perfect.

I think I’m more forgiving of the EPS, because my E90 had Active Steering, so I was already used to having some additional assistance. I can tell you the first couple of days after I got my E90 from my ZHP I definitely noticed the difference and I wasn’t sure about it, but I adapted really quickly. Anyway, having said all this, BMW’s EPS has been panned by EVERYONE who claims to be an enthusiast from day one. We’re at the point today where it is slightly less panned than it used to be. I remember from the very beginning the comparisons to Porsche’s EPS. The universal comment was that Porsche’s EPS was much better and proved that BMW could do better EPS if they wanted to, but they were choosing not to in order to appeal to a broader consumer market. I think that is absolutely true. And one specific comment about the G20 EPS. In the beginning the car rags were saying the 330i steering was better than the M340i steering, because it has a different rack and the M340i rack had to carry over from the F30 because of space constraints with the I6 motor. I absolutely disagree with this. I would not own a regular G20 330i, because of the steering. Even in sport mode it feels like a Buick! I haven’t had the opportunity to drive an M Sport G20 330i, so maybe that would be a better experience.

I may be putting words in Scott’s mouth, but I don’t really think his point is that BMW has gotten worse compared to their competitors, but more that the competition has finally “figured out” the formula and caught up to BMW in many ways and BMW has, for whatever reason, “chosen” to remain “stagnant”. I think a lot of the improvements by competitors have to do with improving technology and decreasing engineering costs to do what BMW engineers were doing for years. Also, I think we are very close to the engineering limits of how much can be done with driving dynamics, so it’s much harder for BMW to remain leaps and bounds ahead of the competition.

So, those are a few of my thoughts.

[KurtsM5]

Originally Posted by noemon

From the new gen, only the M2 is where it's at.

I hated both the G80 and the F90. Too big, bulky and heavy. The F10 was that too but it did not break your ribs pretending to be a sports car like the F90 does, hence why the M550 is actually the equivalent to the F10 M5, .ie a proper GT car and not a frankenstein that is neither a GT, nor a family car, nor a sports car.

Equivalent to an M5??? LOLOL are you kidding.??