[ron_jeremy]

Originally Posted by rainfall

BMW needs to combine its strengths with the market trends to be competitive in this segment.

BMW is literally years away from Tesla & others, not just in product launches, but also in R&D.
What BMW does (did) well was to figure out what are different DRIVER segments and what they are looking for from a driving perspective.

I think it will be a waste of effort to go chase down Tesla or Bolt as is. I'm not a car engineer, but I think if they focus on building cars that are fun to drive instead of copying what others are doing, they are more likely to be successful.

That's not an easy job, because the 3 series hybrid didn't sell much. I hope they are more successful with this 3 series electric and I hope there is still some fun factor in this car.

BMW are years away from Tesla. Says who, you?
See, we can all agree that Tesla leapfroged the car industry with their Google approach, well done! But i'm pretty confindent the German train is catching up soon. Just look at the Volt and it's range, even better than the 3. I think Tesla are the one to come up with something better than the model 3.

[the dope steez]

Originally Posted by ron_jeremy

BMW are years away from Tesla. Says who, you?
See, we can all agree that Tesla leapfroged the car industry with their Google approach, well done! But i'm pretty confindent the German train is catching up soon. Just look at the Volt and it's range, even better than the 3. I think Tesla are the one to come up with something better than the model 3.

I also think they have to jump on the wagon at some stage, so the sooner the better. Let's be honest does anyone see internal combustion engines being sold in new vehicles at all in 15 years? Could be even 10 years. It's a long game and even though Tesla is ahead, there is plenty of time to carve out some market share in electric vehicles.

It's like if Google said when the iPhone came out 'ah, they've already got it figured out, no point competing' and just carried on their merry way instead of developing android OS. Not comparing BMW to Google, but it's not like BMW is some little twerp in the face of giant monopoly Tesla... It will just take more work and time to get to that level since Tesla is the main competition in electric vehicles.

[Jbrock22]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

Maybe you should actually try one before criticising it. Have you even seen one in person?

How do you know a Tesla 3 is competitive with anything ? Have you driven one. It's all PR until it hits the streets.

[///M4ster Yoda]

You guys know what's sad. This thread has shown me that enthusiast motoring is almost dead. I know I know. People will say that's not true and that this is the golden age. Wrong. Electric cars are for point A to point B people. I'm definitely not one of those. It's looking like I'll have to buy an ICE sports car and store it away before there all gone. :

[JorgenM]

You're so wrong ///M4ster Yoda.

I used to be really into cars for 20 years, member of the local BMW owners club, attending meetups etc. Then I got bored.....
Until I got the i3. Finally, cars were fun again. The driving experience was superior to any BMW ICE car I've owned. Later I also replaced the family car (we have 3 kids) with a Tesla and I'm now a complete car addict.

So I think you're wrong, very wrong. Electric drive brings new enthusiasm.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by JorgenM

You're so wrong ///M4ster Yoda.

I used to be really into cars for 20 years, member of the local BMW owners club, attending meetups etc. Then I got bored.....
Until I got the i3. Finally, cars were fun again. The driving experience was superior to any BMW ICE car I've owned. Later I also replaced the family car (we have 3 kids) with a Tesla and I'm now a complete car addict.

So I think you're wrong, very wrong. Electric drive brings new enthusiasm.

Different strokes as they say. How does that Tesla sound? Thats rhetorical. Have you ever owned an M car? I'm guessing you like a quiet cabin with tech blah blah. You see. I like to DRIVE.

Different strokes

[Saphirschwarz]

Originally Posted by cwulffy

This is the beginning of the end for Tesla.

Agreed

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

You guys know what's sad. This thread has shown me that enthusiast motoring is almost dead. I know I know. People will say that's not true and that this is the golden age.

"Enthusiastic motoring" is not dead, it's just changing (and slowly dying with self driving car initiative, it's not electric car that's killing it)

I haven't driven any electric cars yet so I cannot say for sure if I like them or not. Acceleration numbers of top models are quite impressive though. It's hard to ignore numbers and power they produce.

Same as you I think there's more than just numbers to a great car, but I think all those other things (besides maybe "great sounding engines" as we know it today) will come with time, options will exist out there - for enthusiasts anyway. For those who don't care, "self driving" appliances that get you from A to B with many great tech features and screens will do. But those are majority of cars on the market and majority of car buyers today anyway.

[///M4ster Yoda]

What is there to be enthusiastic about with these "battery" cars. Quiet cabin? Good charging time? Autonomous driving? 300 mile range?

This is a serious question? I'm not enthusiastic about any of that.

For me it would be a great handling, sounding ride with a soul.

Sorry. These don't cut it. The funny part is these cars aren't saving any trees either.

[Bosozoku]

Originally Posted by IB M

Good for BMW. Tesla has a substantial lead in brand, technology and design when it comes to electrics. Porsche and BMW need to catch-up fast. Doubt GM or Ford can as electric does not appeal to their customer base.

There are roughly 500,000 pre-orders for the Tesla Model 3.
Porsche and BMW have German quality and reputation to attract customers.
Four words for everyone else: "good luck with that".

[ron_jeremy]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

What is there to be enthusiastic about with these "battery" cars. Quiet cabin? Good charging time? Autonomous driving? 300 mile range?

This is a serious question? I'm not enthusiastic about any of that.

For me it would be a great handling, sounding ride with a soul.

Sorry. These don't cut it. The funny part is these cars aren't saving any trees either.

I guess by that you mean that diesel and petrol are very green as of today?

Electric current have numerous sources, sun and wind are making huge leaps these days. Try to look out of your own pond, you will see that the investments in these two power solutions are far, far ahead of the old tech, like oil and charcoal.
Norway have natural benefits from the nature itself, and we´re lucky to have politicians that want to see ICE solutions end by 2025, yes - the target of Norwegian government, is that no ICE cars will be sold after 2025.
Yes it is a ambitious target, and likely - will not be made, but the objective is clear, EV is the future.
I just got back from a little drive with one of my two current cars. I always take our little i01, the only time i take our F25 is when i need the extra space inside or i need to drive a few hours away, and surely when i have something connected to my trailer hitch.
I was thinking of this mather while driving it, what is the benefits with EV vs ICE.
These points came up:

- EV is much cheaper to maintain and own.
- EV is much more reliable than ICE.
- Drivetrain is explosive and fast, no lag, no transmission that need to shift gear up or down.
- Charge the car while your home, no need to look for a gas station.
- Program the car to be varm or cold when you want.
- Much easier to drive.
- Much better space inside a EV than a ICE car.
- EV gives more opportunity to design a more modern car, inside and out.
- EV will be cheaper than ICE when they (parts like battery) reach mass production stage. (likely within 5 years).
- More performance for your money.
- Enviroment, EV´s been proven to be more green than ICE, even when the EV are charged with power made from carchoal.
- Comfort, no I4 diesel ratle or diesel smell.

Now, there are downsides with the EV as well, as with everything else.
- The obvious are the sporty ICE engine sound, but then it has to be a decent engine, not a run of the mill I4 diesel, like we have in EU.
- The range, although it´s been addressed these days.
- Charging stations, more stations, and more powerful.
- Trailer hitch, few EV have this feature, only Tesla i think?
- EV are not very suitable for track use as of now.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Bosozoku

There are roughly 500,000 pre-orders for the Tesla Model 3.
Porsche and BMW have German quality and reputation to attract customers.
Four words for everyone else: "good luck with that".

500,000 pre-orders is a nice number but really considering numbers other manufacturers are selling Worldwide it's just a tiny "drop in the bucket".
And that's assuming Tesla can deliver, and deliver with quality, assuming they show long term reliability and attract repeat buyers.

Here are worldwide sales numbers for 2016.


Tesla has a lead in tech for now, but others have lead in everything else. Cash, experience in designing, producing and testing vehicle, established manufacturing and sales network, more resources. I think it's matter of time before they catch up, and I hope they do so fast. We will all benefit by having better and less expensive products competing for our money.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

What is there to be enthusiastic about with these "battery" cars. Quiet cabin? Good charging time? Autonomous driving? 300 mile range?

This is a serious question? I'm not enthusiastic about any of that.

For me it would be a great handling, sounding ride with a soul.

Sorry. These don't cut it. The funny part is these cars aren't saving any trees either.

As I said earlier, everything you mention here I too consider exciting from car enthusiast point of view. Great handling, great sounding and fairly fast vehicle.

The thing is, cliche as it might be, times are changing. This new technology is in it's infancy. For sure it's going to be more difficult for someone like us who were raised to admire "certain type of car" to adapt than for our kids and generation coming after them. Definition of car enthusiast is changing and we all will have to either adapt or pay through the nose for "niche" market, or drive 20+ year old cars.

Think people who still shop in record stores and know meaning of "album" or even worse, "side A and B". Are they right or wrong? Is it really better and more enjoyable sounding to listen to records? Who knows, but they sure are in minority.
They had valid point about loss of "feel" and "warmth" with CDs initially, followed by even worse compressed MP3s, Napster and iTunes. But guess what, it got better and better with each iteration. High definition audio today and ways to decode and make it sound excellent to (analogue) humans has come long way.

I think same will be true for whatever is coming our way with cars in the future. It'll be trial and error with lots of misses along the way, but eventually, there will be good driving cars to enjoy for those interested, they just won't sound as good as big engines most of us like today.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

As I said earlier, everything you mention here I too consider exciting from car enthusiast point of view. Great handling, great sounding and fairly fast vehicle.

The thing is, cliche as it might be, times are changing. This new technology is in it's infancy. For sure it's going to be more difficult for someone like us who were raised to admire "certain type of car" to adapt than for our kids and generation coming after them. Definition of car enthusiast is changing and we all will have to either adapt or pay through the nose for "niche" market, or drive 20+ year old cars.

Think people who still shop in record stores and know meaning of "album" or even worse, "side A and B". Are they right or wrong? Is it really better and more enjoyable sounding to listen to records? Who knows, but they sure are in minority.
They had valid point about loss of "feel" and "warmth" with CDs initially, followed by even worse compressed MP3s, Napster and iTunes. But guess what, it got better and better with each iteration. High definition audio today and ways to decode and make it sound excellent to (analogue) humans has come long way.

I think same will be true for whatever is coming our way with cars in the future. It'll be trial and error with lots of misses along the way, but eventually, there will be good driving cars to enjoy for those interested, they just won't sound as good as big engines most of us like today.

It's going to be minority report. If you haven't seen that movie check it out. That's where we are headed. Lame self driving vehicles.

Don't get me started on the younger generation. I'm 43 for the record. Most of the " kids" these days couldn't care less about cars. They don't even want their drivers license's. Mommy and daddy do everything for them why would they need a license.

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

It's going to be minority report. If you haven't seen that movie check it out. That's where we are headed. Lame self driving vehicles.

Don't get me started on the younger generation. I'm 43 for the record. Most of the " kids" these days could care less about cars. They don't even want their drivers license's. Mommy and daddy do everything for them why would they need a license.

I hate to be THAT guy, but it's "couldn't care less"...but I agree with your point. Ha!

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

It's going to be minority report. If you haven't seen that movie check it out. That's where we are headed. Lame self driving vehicles.

Don't get me started on the younger generation. I'm 43 for the record. Most of the " kids" these days could care less about cars. They don't even want their drivers license's. Mommy and daddy do everything for them why would they need a license.

I'm in agreement with you on pretty much everything, but also keep in mind we're at the point where we're slowly becoming "grumpy old men" and most things (many FULLY justifiable) about new generation are starting to annoy us.

Where I disagree with you is, unfortunately for us who like great cars as they are today, this is one of those "adapt or become obsolete" situations. Many things we know as "the way things are meant to be" just aren't true anymore. My 20+ year old cousin recently jokingly replied to my text saying "what do you mean meeting girls in bars, stores, gyms....and asking them out in person, I hear the words you're saying but you're not making any sense at all to me".

Swipe right or left it is these days, and soon it'll be "Siri/Google please take us to the beach, and take scenic route please". It's not "my thing" since I absolutely love to drive, but that's where things are headed.

Yes I've seen Minority Report, this commercial sums it up really well for me.

[rainfall]

Originally Posted by ron_jeremy

BMW are years away from Tesla. Says who, you?
See, we can all agree that Tesla leapfroged the car industry with their Google approach, well done! But i'm pretty confindent the German train is catching up soon. Just look at the Volt and it's range, even better than the 3. I think Tesla are the one to come up with something better than the model 3.

Yes, that is my opinion and you are welcome to disagree.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by AudiA4

I hate to be THAT guy, but it's "couldn't care less"...but I agree with your point. Ha!

Ha! I was typing on my iPad. Whoops. You got me. Fixed

[BALL3N]

Originally Posted by alex2364

BMW needs to find a way to do firmware updates OTA like Tesla. Getting the dealer to flash my firmware for software fixes is worse than pulling teeth.

and remotely remove the coding I've spent time on? No thanks. Tesla sends electronic nasty grams to people trying to interface with their computers. I know we're going to be there one day, I'm not ready just yet...

[Fundguy1]

The camry outsold the combined sales of
Tesla s
Tesla x
Chevy bolt
Chevy volt
Prius prime
Ford Fussion enrgi
Ford cmax enrgi
Nissan leaf

By over 4 to 1. Fun side show to watch but not a game changer.

[Cuz5150]

Ha! Bravo for BMW of getting in the game feet first.
Competition makes things better and cheaper for the masses.
However, i wonder about the Tesla stock. It has been ballooning at an alarming rate $361 as of yesterday. Who's pumping money like that in to Tesla? Very shady stuff going on with this stock#.

[bailyhill]

Originally Posted by arctic330i

I love BMW and all, but without a global fast charging infrastructure they will be far, far behind Tesla.

The car is only part of the EV experience. Any Mfgr that relys on an unreliable charge network as we have in NE is doomed to fail. They need at least several J1772 and a couple of DC Fast Chargers at every BMW Dealer for a start. We don't have that yet.

Bailyhill