[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by pennsiveguy

We all bow our heads in reverence to you, a true Renaissance man. I believe I speak for many others hereabouts when I offer my deepest thanks to you for correcting our careless and errant assertions and our ill-considered theorems about the way things work. We're deeply sorrowful for having offered arguments which - though logically and factually sound - gave you pause. What were we thinking? I ask this of myself, as I can imagine so many others have done. We, the uneducated, are counting on you to guide and correct us. Don't let us down.

Did I hurt your feelings somehow by sharing my opinion as well as my personal epistemology? I thought your skin was thicker than that based on your tone and language in the posts on this forum.

Anyone can write clean code. No argument there. People can learn data structures, pointers and recursion on their own. No argument.

Can your coder answer what hardware protections are in place for corruption of data in the RAM/EEPROM, to guarantee that the clean code he wrote doesn’t return garbage based on a corrupt variable? Can he tell you what measures are in place to mitigate bit flips, or bus errors? Or if the CPU uses step-lock architecture to guarantee computational integrity? Or what the graceful degradation concept looks like in cases of random hardware failures of essential components. And what the FIT rates are for these components based on electronics standards. These are assessment/accreditation type questions. And how I interview.

Because IF this code is used in safety critical systems, you have to follow processes and pass ISO/TS/FMVSS as well as other assessments. If your employees lack the formal education, these assessments will be doomed to fail. They cover not only the product, like your code, but also the project management, process adherence, and qualification/competence management of the work force.

There is a difference between recreational developers, developers of systems who's failure leads to little more than annoyance, and engineers.

This is why certain majors, like Computer Science are not an acceptable for my company’s new recruits. And that's not my policy, it's been in place for the last 20 years. It's a hard line and I see why it makes sense, when the effect can be loss of life and recalls.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Fined

I did not. I am glad I did not waste my time or efforts. I've stayed in the field I naturally gravitated towards.

My career paid for my 911 GTS track car, my M2 daily, and a fully paid relocation from the US to Germany. The company who hired me even paid to ship the 911 over. I got to choose where I live, I work from home (nothing to do with COVID).. I'm 2 hours from Spa Francorchamps and 2 hours from the 'Ring. I've only gotten out to Spa so far, the M2 did great there!

With only a high school diploma and staying determined. I might study and get a degree here, but if I do it will be for nearly free. I may not, as things have been going insanely well without it.

I wanted to come here because I love cars and I wanted to experience the tracks in my own cars whenever I want, not just for European delivery. So I did it.

Unfortunately, this is the exception rather than the rule. You are one example compared to thousands of others who didn't go to college, and find themselves with much less success than you have.

For me, I did not stay in my field. I have a degree I do not use, but a piece of paper is not the only thing, nor is it the most important thing I got out of college.

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by M_Six

The electrician who wired that site had racks of perfectly parallel conduits running all over the building. I would stand there staring up at the beauty of those dozen or so parallel conduits and marvel at the skill needed to produce them. It really is artwork. It's a talent, just like painting or sculpting. You cannot teach that in a class. It takes years of practice, like playing the violin or piano.

My late father was a broadcast TV engineer for one of the big-three. Just before his untimely demise, he decided to build a house on top of a mountain. Naturally, he did the electrical and plumbing, and probably set a world's record for fastest building inspector sign-offs on both on a DIY job because neither inspector had seen a job done so neatly. The electrical inspector actually asked if he could bring all of the local contractors by for a tour, to show them what their work should look like.

Fast forward 20 years. The house took a lightning hit on the power mast, blowing the electric meter to smithereens and singing the main feed into the panel. (Not uncommon when living on top of a mountain.) I dragged my master electrician F-I-L up there, to give the panel a once-over before the power company turned the service back on. When he took the cover off the panel, he just stood there speechless for more than a minute! Every single wire was run in fanouts with protractor-grade bends, the side punchouts were perfectly utilized for each circuit, and it even brought me to tears knowing that I did not have the skills to do that caliber of work in my lifetime. No surprise, the panel survived the lightning hit with zero damage outside of the main feed from the meter.

I wish that I could say that it was a 100% happy day, but we discovered something HORRIBLE in the panel when we opened it. After my father's passing, my mother had central air installed. The electrician who wired the AC unit just wantonly knocked out any old punchout, and looped the wire around inside the panel with no thought or plan. Can you say eyesore?!?!? It was like someone took a can of spray paint to the Mona Lisa.....

[pennsiveguy]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

Did I hurt your feelings somehow by sharing my opinion as well as my personal epistemology? I thought your skin was thicker than that based on your tone and language in the posts on this forum.

Anyone can write clean code. No argument there. People can learn data structures, pointers and recursion on their own. No argument.

Can your coder answer what hardware protections are in place for corruption of data in the RAM/EEPROM, to guarantee that the clean code he wrote doesn’t return garbage based on a corrupt variable? Can he tell you what measures are in place to mitigate bit flips, or bus errors? Or if the CPU uses step-lock architecture to guarantee computational integrity? Or what the graceful degradation concept looks like in cases of random hardware failures of essential components. And what the FIT rates are for these components based on electronics standards. These are assessment/accreditation type questions. And how I interview.

Because IF this code is used in safety critical systems, you have to follow processes and pass ISO/TS/FMVSS as well as other assessments. If your employees lack the formal education, these assessments will be doomed to fail. They cover not only the product, like your code, but also the project management, process adherence, and qualification/competence management of the work force.

There is a difference between recreational developers, developers of systems who's failure leads to little more than annoyance, and engineers.

This is why certain majors, like Computer Science are not an acceptable for my company’s new recruits. And that's not my policy, it's been in place for the last 20 years. It's a hard line and I see why it makes sense, when the effect can be loss of life and recalls.

You didn't hurt my feelings in the least. Your post had whiffs of arrogance and condescension, and I crafted a suitably sarcastic response.

[grocerylist]

I think it partly depends on what you go to school for. I went and got a Computer Engineering degree. I got into IT and was a Network Engineer. Most of the people I worked with didn't have a degree. I've determined that I'd have been better off if I had entered the work force earlier getting more experience earlier, focused on IT certifications and saved myself about 20 grand.

However, today I understand that school continues to get more expensive and that makes the decision that much more difficult for me to recommend going to college. I'd probably say, if you (or your family) don't already have the money to go to college, then I wouldn't recommend it. If your family can pay for college, then maybe I'd do it for the experience... but for me, professionally in IT, I think job experience, certifications, home labbing, etc are more valuable immediately in getting a good job that pays well.

Even after college, I struggled to find a job or company that would pay me what I considered a fair salary. It took me about 4 years working some really crappy jobs before I got a job that I considered paying me a fair salary and another 3 years and moving out of Houston to Seattle to earn a salary I was proud of.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by pennsiveguy

You didn't hurt my feelings in the least. Your post had whiffs of arrogance and condescension, and I crafted a suitably sarcastic response.

Cool, glad to hear. You seem to have disdain for college grads, so I hope I was able to explain why (at least) in my line of work, that is not an option.

Quick end to discussion is always good though

[gjm120]

Originally Posted by pennsiveguy

You didn't hurt my feelings in the least. Your post had whiffs of arrogance and condescension, and I crafted a suitably sarcastic response.

"whiffs"? It reeked.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by pennsiveguy

Nowadays college is the very opposite of that. It's a cesspool of moral relativism, Post-Modern indoctrination, and the complete rejection of the very notion of truth.

I no longer hire college graduates - ever - unless a particular candidate presents him/herself as a compelling exception. l.

University graduates are generally ill-suited to our operations. They've been indoctrinated to conform.

Originally Posted by gjm120

"whiffs"? It reeked.

Speaking of arrogance

We all have our bias and our preferences. Generalizations like this might be true for his very specific business, but in general are the outlier, not the norm. As many have stated.

So pardon the attitude, but that is bad advice, for anyone who doesn't want to work at his company at least.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

I’ll tell you a fun skill I learned in College I use quite often, to argue with the uneducated on this forum. Most of my studies were engineering an science, but all my electives were Philosophy and Poli Sci. So when I see people post about BLM, or any of our past presidents being Marxist, I -in a polite and eloquent way - explain to them the absurdity of that notion. Conversation ends very abruptly.

Turns out very few people have an understanding of Marxism. Not to mention being able to point out differences between communism and socialism. No one reads Karl Marx for fun, only as part of studies in modern political theory. But the truth is the truth. Same applies for logical reasoning, critical thinking, and applying science to solve every day problems.

And the people I hire have to have a Bachelor of Science in Engineering, and a M.S. is preferred. We only accept Electrical, Mechanical, Computer, Automotive or Aerospace degrees.

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

Did I hurt your feelings somehow by sharing my opinion as well as my personal epistemology? I thought your skin was thicker than that based on your tone and language in the posts on this forum.

Anyone can write clean code. No argument there. People can learn data structures, pointers and recursion on their own. No argument.

Can your coder answer what hardware protections are in place for corruption of data in the RAM/EEPROM, to guarantee that the clean code he wrote doesn’t return garbage based on a corrupt variable? Can he tell you what measures are in place to mitigate bit flips, or bus errors? Or if the CPU uses step-lock architecture to guarantee computational integrity? Or what the graceful degradation concept looks like in cases of random hardware failures of essential components. And what the FIT rates are for these components based on electronics standards. These are assessment/accreditation type questions. And how I interview.

Because IF this code is used in safety critical systems, you have to follow processes and pass ISO/TS/FMVSS as well as other assessments. If your employees lack the formal education, these assessments will be doomed to fail. They cover not only the product, like your code, but also the project management, process adherence, and qualification/competence management of the work force.

There is a difference between recreational developers, developers of systems who's failure leads to little more than annoyance, and engineers.

This is why certain majors, like Computer Science are not an acceptable for my company’s new recruits. And that's not my policy, it's been in place for the last 20 years. It's a hard line and I see why it makes sense, when the effect can be loss of life and recalls.

Honest question. Do you or your company have requirements for hires to possess a PE license or at a minimum an EIT?

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Honest question. Do you or your company have requirements for hires to possess a PE license or at a minimum an EIT?

Actually, no. Not very common in the industry. Only a few Chief engineers have a PE cert. On my team of 21 I have 4 Ph.Ds, but no one with a PE.

This is also because we have strict procedures in place for requirements engineering, design, coding, testing and validation, safety and security etc. When we release a product it is signed for by line mgmt, quality, safety, and prj management. We have change control boards with involvement of all affected departments, and lots of design reviews with experts along the way. If something goes wrong after all these steps the company takes brunt as a whole, not any single person. Thankfully the procedures in place prevent major blunders, plus everyone feels responsible for their part. I think it helps that the management culture encourages finding and reporting problems as soon as possible.

And we spend a lot of time on training and increasing competence. We typically start people in testing or application positions. Then they move to software developers, then into systems, then to expert or managerial roles. Minimum 3 years per position. That’s how we grow our staff.

[pennsiveguy]

Originally Posted by jmg

Unfortunately, this is the exception rather than the rule. You are one example compared to thousands of others who didn't go to college, and find themselves with much less success than you have.

For me, I did not stay in my field. I have a degree I do not use, but a piece of paper is not the only thing, nor is it the most important thing I got out of college.

You're quite correct in terms of the statistics. The income gulf between college grads and high school grads has grown at a rapid pace in the last couple of decades. When I was a kid, accountants and dentists and union tradespeople lived side-by-side in the same neighborhoods. Not today; the tradespeoples' wages haven't kept pace with the professional class, and very few of them can afford a house in the more upscale neighborhoods.

I may not think it's fair or makes sense, but it's an unfortunate statistical fact.

[pennsiveguy]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

Cool, glad to hear. You seem to have disdain for college grads, so I hope I was able to explain why (at least) in my line of work, that is not an option.

Quick end to discussion is always good though

I don't have disdain for college graduates. I am one myself (a BA and a BS), as are both my parents and all 4 of my grandparents. I have disdain for the systemic infestation which has turned former hotbeds of rigorous debate, and bustling marketplaces of ideas, into indoctrination depots.

Discussions can end quickly for any number of reasons. On rare occasions, one side's arguments and assertions are so well-crafted and compelling and self-validating that they instantly and forever vanquish the opponents' arguments. More often, one side quickly realizes that the other side is ideologically possessed and rigid, and that the discussion is doomed to be fruitless despite their own good will and sound ideas and thus leaves the discussion. I'm sure all of your quickly-concluded discussions are the former case.

[pennsiveguy]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

Cool, glad to hear. You seem to have disdain for college grads, so I hope I was able to explain why (at least) in my line of work, that is not an option.

Quick end to discussion is always good though

I do understand that there exists a small universe of skills/capabilities that one can most efficiently and effectively acquire in a university setting. I wouldn't want a pacemaker implanted in me whose software was designed by a bunch of hobbyist coders.

But outside of that - and my company's software practice lies almost completely outside of that - I think college is a scam. It's a welfare program to allow moribund, parasitic intellectuals (mostly pseudo-intellectuals, actually) to continue to spout BS and draw cushy salaries, funded by heaping debt upon naive and short-sighted youth who end up doomed to complete irrelevance in the job market.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by pennsiveguy

I don't have disdain for college graduates. I am one myself (a BA and a BS), as are both my parents and all 4 of my grandparents. I have disdain for the systemic infestation which has turned former hotbeds of rigorous debate, and bustling marketplaces of ideas, into indoctrination depots.

I have a different view based on my own undergraduate as well as graduate college experiences, and based on my professional career over the last 16 years of being surrounded by people with B.S, M.S and Ph.D degrees.

I enjoyed my college experience, the broadening of my academic, philosophical and technical horizons, and many many healthy debates with other students and professors. I appreciate the fact that I learned the essentials to build a career in the field of engineering, as well as dichotomy of new and old views and concepts I learned in political science and philosophy. I have read Plato, and was expecting to study Socratic Discourses and even Machiavelli. I don’t think I would have read Nietzsche if it wasn’t required reading though. Some of the ideas were different, shocking and mind opening for sure.

In the end I feel I received a well rounded education, not some form of indoctrination you speak off. Learning is a life long process, and college helps set one on that journey, while laying foundations for further growth. That’s my view point.

To be honest, I don’t understand what you mean by universities indoctrinating people. For me it gave me basic knowledge in a few areas, and know how of scientific methods to solve problems and make decisions based on available data. It gave me the confidence to argue my hypothesis, while also allowing me to recognize when my hypothesis is wrong, and accept that others were right. Because in science the truth is objective. If this is the indoctrination you speak of, than I’m happily indoctrinated.

P. S. I get that some grads have an unfair and unjustified sense of entitlement simply because they have a degree. I come across them every so often, and don’t invite them back. I also get that some majors are useless for a career, and those who pursued them often regret it. College is like a buffet. Stand in line and do what you must, then take what you need and leave.

[pennsiveguy]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

I have a different view based on my own undergraduate as well as graduate college experiences, and based on my professional career over the last 16 years of being surrounded by people with B.S, M.S and Ph.D degrees.

I enjoyed my college experience, the broadening of my academic, philosophical and technical horizons, and many many healthy debates with other students and professors. I appreciate the fact that I learned the essentials to build a career in the field of engineering, as well as dichotomy of new and old views and concepts I learned in political science and philosophy. I have read Plato, and was expecting to study Socratic Discourses and even Machiavelli. I don’t think I would have read Nietzsche if it wasn’t required reading though. Some of the ideas were different, shocking and mind opening for sure.

In the end I feel I received a well rounded education, not some form of indoctrination you speak off. Learning is a life long process, and college helps set one on that journey, while laying foundations for further growth. That’s my view point.

To be honest, I don’t understand what you mean by universities indoctrinating people. For me it gave me basic knowledge in a few areas, and know how of scientific methods to solve problems and make decisions based on available data. It gave me the confidence to argue my hypothesis, while also allowing me to recognize when my hypothesis is wrong, and accept that others were right. Because in science the truth is objective. If this is the indoctrination you speak of, than I’m happily indoctrinated.

P. S. I get that some grads have an unfair and unjustified sense of entitlement simply because they have a degree. I come across them every so often, and don’t invite them back. I also get that some majors are useless for a career, and those who pursued them often regret it. College is like a buffet. Stand in line and do what you must, then take what you need and leave.

I'm glad for you if you had a college experience that fostered the expansion of your mind and world view. Sadly, it's not the experience most college students have nowadays. Colleges are overwhelmingly dominated by liberals and progressives, and it's stifling the free exchange of ideas.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by pennsiveguy

I'm glad for you if you had a college experience that fostered the expansion of your mind and world view. Sadly, it's not the experience most college students have nowadays. Colleges are overwhelmingly dominated by liberals and progressives, and it's stifling the free exchange of ideas.

Perhaps it's the possibility that it might not be indoctrination, but causation, that makes it such a hard pill to swallow for critics of progressivism.

[5.M0NSTER]

Most or at least many Universities are places where new or different ideas and world views grow. This, by definitions is the opposite of conservative thought. Universities have always been more liberal than the average institutions of the time. It has been that way for hundreds of years. Hard to change the world if you’re confined to old ways of thinking.

There are universities which favor more conservatives ways, and they are often religious by nature. They create educated individuals for sure, but not so much innovation happens at these places. As one would expect, since certain areas of research are forbidden due to theological views.

But now I’m curious, are you saying universities are factories for individuals slated for political left of center?

[tgrundke]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

There are universities which favor more conservatives ways, and they are often religious by nature. They create educated individuals for sure, but not so much innovation happens at these places. As one would expect, since certain areas of research are forbidden due to theological views.

Quite the opposite in the 21st century: modern academia has become a religious institution of leftists, pushing a specific dogma. Critically challenging anything that is considered heterodox is verboten.

"Universities are places where new or different ideas and world views grow. This, by definitions is the opposite of conservative thought. It has been that way for hundreds of years. Hard to change the world if you’re confined to old ways of thinking."

Conservatism is not simply about "old ways of thinking". It is a recognition of basic natural laws, human nature, and fundamental rights that do not change.

Academia has been transformed in the last 20 years into a place I no longer recognize - it's no longer a place where ideas are challenged, it is where students who express contrary thought are shut down.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by tgrundke

Quite the opposite in the 21st century: modern academia has become a religious institution of leftists, pushing a specific dogma. Critically challenging anything that is considered heterodox is verboten.

"Universities are places where new or different ideas and world views grow. This, by definitions is the opposite of conservative thought. It has been that way for hundreds of years. Hard to change the world if you’re confined to old ways of thinking."

Conservatism is not simply about "old ways of thinking". It is a recognition of basic natural laws, human nature, and fundamental rights that do not change.

Academia has been transformed in the last 20 years into a place I no longer recognize - it's no longer a place where ideas are challenged, it is where students who express contrary thought are shut down.

I personally have not seen a student be ridiculed or dismissed for thinking differently. Again, perhaps this is subjective, but here I can't contribute more.

Physics, Biology, Chemistry and Mathematics are the representation of natural laws. And they are taught using similar books in all universities, no? Human nature is more psychology, and an area I know very little. But also taught everywhere.

"Fundamental rights that do not change" depend on century, and are completely in the realm of Philosophy and Political Theory. And they do change quite often. Freedom of choice yes or no for example. Hmm, let's come back to this soon.

But I have a feeling that the term "liberal" has been twisted and contorted beyond recognition. Why?
Abortion choice as a right = liberal now. But it's a fundamental human right to some, and human rights are more of a conservative, God given thing, no? Magna Carta and US constitution offered certain rights as given way before anyone referred to them as conservative or liberal.

Another example: I had to take Micro and Macro Economics. Where I learned about short and long terms economic effects of government measures like tariffs on foreign goods. Cliff notes version: Short term gain, long term pain.
Conservative view, for a long time has been small government and non-intervention in economic matters. Till now. The economic truths about what the effects of tarrifs are hasn't changed. But the view of which approach is liberal and which is conservative has.

So my hypothesis is that Universities by nature teach all past and present approaches. The view of what is "liberal" is what changed over the last 20 years far more so than the Universities themselves.

[plutnicki]

College does not equal nor guarantee success.

But _Education_ creates options. Education can take many forms, training, apprenticeship, experience itself is a form of education. IMHO, more education means more options.

There are career paths that will be closed to someone without a college degree in that path. It's a reality, perhaps not a fair one.

In my personal case, the degree and where it was from opened a door to me that might not have otherwise been open, but staying on that side of the door and making the most of the opportunity was all me.

People define success differently.

Work hard and make the most of your opportunities and you can be successful.

Just my $0.02

[bassrebel]

No college... been blessed with a great job, very nice pay...

Wife has a bachelors and has also been blessed with a great job with the state with great benefits and great pay...

Neither one option nor the other will ever guarantee a good job, only your attitude and your ability to capitalize on opportunities when they show up.

For example, we've had to move from two different states (TN and FL) in order to advance in our careers... in my opinion, totally worth it!

[Joekerr]

And....the thread is back on track. Sad, because here was me, enjoying the beginnings of what could be salty exchanges there between Pennsive and 5Monster. All good things must come to an end I suppose.

I don't think college / university is a waste, but I think they are more valuable (perhaps even required) in certain fields than others, so one has to figure out what they want to do, and the best way of getting there. Like others have said, experience is pretty critical.

I hired a person who didn't have a college degree (though was pursuing one as a mature student) because she had the experience I wanted. And she's head and shoulders above anyone fresh out of college because she had years of experience before she decided to try to go to college.