[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by Rev ///Me

Which is why I love Mercedes, they're not milking the AMG brand. The AMG Sport Package is basically like the on M Sport Package.

Agreed. It's nice to spice up the standard cars but I appreciate them doing it without diluting the AMG brand by over-using the logo.

[georgere]

Originally Posted by Twix

When I was out this year car shopping I test drove the C300. It felt much better and more connected to the road than the 328i Xdrive I also tested. But neither had the feel of the car I ended up with. And I couldn't be happier with my X1

that's because X1 is based on e90. It doesn't have EPS, suspension, or size of F30.

Btw, in 2010 I also was comparing the current C class to my e90 and e90 won in handling, steering feel, and interior finish in my opinion. The only category C was better was the exterior shape and looks. With release of F30, BMW lost suspension and steering feel, and gained ever worst looking exterior. Thus I am not surprised C wins in the class.

[w3rkn]

I think BMW future floorplan is going to confuse a lot of people & this trend will continue.

BMW Dealerships don't even have enough lot space to even show all of it's vehicles now. Won't be able to sell cars, that people can't test-drive. BMW had become the new General Motors. The new McDonalds... we serve everyone!!

[Ezio]

Benz is more appealing to me atm.

[eldo33]

Originally Posted by georgere

that's because X1 is based on e90. It doesn't have EPS, suspension, or size of F30.

Btw, in 2010 I also was comparing the current C class to my e90 and e90 won in handling, steering feel, and interior finish in my opinion. The only category C was better was the exterior shape and looks. With release of F30, BMW lost suspension and steering feel, and gained ever worst looking exterior. Thus I am not surprised C wins in the class.

The new C class kicks F30's behinh in both interior and exterior designs.

When I purchased my e90 back then, I compared with that year C-class and the e90 looked much better. Now looking all the newer LED designed of MB, they looked much better.

Also the Price with all the options are much better on MB than BMW. This was also one of the reason we purchased the GLK vx X3 in 2011.

[matbl]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Our flagship car has arrived its called the BMW i8 and its a progressive take on sports cars like above in which now the novelty has worn off and become forgettable against other cars.

2015 is all about product expansion and it will also give a full sales run to the new BMW X5 and the BMW i3 which commenced sales in November and is yet to arrive in many markets. This will happen in the first half of 2014.
The year of course begins with the most important US show the NAIAS.

The new BMW 4er Cabrio also arrives to take advantage of the season change to Spring. As will the all new BMW 2er Coupe.
Spring also takes us into Geneva and the important autoshow of 2014 which will bring many firsts such as the BMW 2er Active Tourer and the BMW 4er Gran coupe.

Immediately after Geneva the Spring events continue for BMW with the unveiling of the new BMW X4 and LCi of the popular best selling BMW X3.

The alternative IAA the AMI in Leipzig will bring a BMW World Premiere or two as will the important Auto China event which takes place in Beijing will not only introduce the new models for the Chinese market but also a new concept car for further product expansion. And given previous Beijing concepts the Gran Coupe and i8 Spyder this reflects something special.

Always interesting...Villa d'este.

In the Summer we will see the new BMW M3 and M4 arrive on the market, and the LCI of the BMW 1er aswell as the new BMW 2er Cabrio.

The halo car for the BMW fleet arrives to the market with the 2014 allocation already sold. The new BMW i8.

We will also see the new BMW X6 which will take its world premiere in Moscow given that Russia is a huge market for the current X6.

On the M front we will see the introduction of two new M cars which will provide M with new "volume" models.

On the sustainable front the first of the eDrive plug in hybrid BMWs will be unveiled with the BMW X5 eDrive and 2er Active Tourer eDrive.

And a Cabrio of the BMW M4.

Of course there will be events , concepts , innovations, developments periodically throughout the year.
Not exactly a slow year expected as it is the precursor to the big news of 2015 - The all-new BMW 7er.

We will also see prototypes of the next 5er and Z4 replacement and F30 and F12/F13/F06 LCi's.

The other brands have not been forgotten with the introduction of the all-new MINI leading to expansion of a 5dr MINI before the end of the year.

Rolls-Royce's Wraith is already sold out into the first half of 2014 and the Ghost receives its mid-life refresh which coincides with the Ghost V-Specification. With the enormous power delivery of the Wraith and a price tag to match.

No i5 or similar? Disapointing...
Or will there be fully electric versions of the coming 7 and 5 series?
Fully electric is coming fast and at least I don't want to see BMW left behind. i3 of course exist but it's too small and too short range.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Several of us have been saying this for a while now: that BMW straying from its enthusiast and performance roots will come to haunt them at some point and looks like it's starting to happen. Now there is a lack of differentiation with the other marques, many of whom have matched or surpassed BMW at their own game. I see this time and again across industries, once the focus on the core customer/values (that got a company to where it is in the first place) are lost, it is very hard to regain them. Porsche is a company that got it right.

This exactly.
And come on Scott: you say the i8 is BMW's upcoming flagship:
a 3 cylinder awd 360hp car?
I understand BMW won't built a 918 like car but, lets say a 6 or 8 cylinder turbo electric flying saucer with 600bhp just as a showcase. And for the fans.

I don't get it . The whole environmental thing is going completely wrong imho, political weight, lies and making a big show out of it. And BMW desperately wants to be the greenest company in the world, formerly being a car company making sporty cars with some feel and enthousiasm.

Cheers
Robin

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by ddk632

I like cars for their looks, driving characteristics, emotional appeal, fun factor, and technology.
.

and you think BMW is moving toward more emotional cars ?

have you checked what engines they USE to make? and what they make now?

have to driven a new F30 3 series and other models ? the new electric steering is AWFUL !

you cant even buy a n/a Inline 6 engine anymore....

and if you read what scott said. the new flagship car is a ECO car..... they lost there true characteristics

[Neph]

Agree with a lot of comments re: bland design, luxobarge EPS and handling of F30, Benzo design and sporting aspirations etc (did not think it would come to that)...

BUT at least BMW is giving you manual transmission, 50:50 and RWD (yes C class too but even less users than BMW).

And the other problems of soft handling and loss of feel can be corrected as EPS is still young. Porsche and BMW both use ZF EPS and its code which needs changing to allow more steering feel.

As far as exterior design that will improve in response to competition.

[i001947]

It's really no secret that Mercedes are sexier looking than BMW.

[Tattedtwice]

On the strength of a hideous little FWD turd, with less refinement than a compact kia; congrats benz, your desperate plan paid off. And since you dont have a SINGLE attractive or desirable vehicle in your entire lineup, you proved yet again that a badgeslut will buy anything, no matter how ugly, so long as it is has a star emblem.

[btbossman]

Originally Posted by Greenkirby21

BMW should have released the 2 series earlier .

The CLA is really killing it here. I have seen many already

Honestly...but that thing looks like ass!

[mullini]

Originally Posted by ddk632

Truthfully as a customer and car enthusiast, I couldn't care less who's number 1 in luxury sales. I like cars for their looks, driving characteristics, emotional appeal, fun factor, and technology.

+ infinity for the one comment in this thread that I find most intelligent - lol because I agree 100% with it. When I bought my first BMW Thanksgiving 2012, I did it because I was shopping a certain kind of vehicle and BMW had just come out with a model such as I wanted. I test drove the X1 and then placed my order. If BMW had been #4 in luxury car sales at that point I would have bought it.

I came from a 2006 Lexus IS250. Maybe Lexus was #1 at that time. I bought Lexus then because I wanted a small sporty car with great reliability, and the price point was right. #1 had no part in my decision.

Last year I attended two different Lexus test drive events for the new IS, with a BMW 3, Audi 4 and MB C class also available. To me the MB was by far the least interesting. Staid exterior, less connection to road. I liked driving the A4 a lot. Even though the 3 is a different car than my X1, it felt familiar in good ways. The new IS is a big improvement over my 2006 edition in ride, but you have to get the 350 to really enjoy it, and the MPG is not all that great. The re-design is such a slow evolutionary step it takes me a moment when I see one to realize it's the new IS.

When I get ready to buy my next vehicle, I won't give a hoot then either what is the #1 luxury car line. I certainly won't care which car line appeals most to those who follow supercars and long for a manual/diesel something or other with seats like what Fred Flintstone drove.

I'll get the car that appeals to me and meets my needs. November 2012 it was the sDrive X1 and I'm super happy with it. That doesn't change because for 2013 BMW is #2 is luxury sales by a small margin.

[Jamesons Viggen]

I give two craps who sells more cars.

I only care about if the car I am buying suits my needs.

MB just is not on my radar, the '14 E cars are much better looking thanks to no more pontoon fenders and I love the idea of the E63 wagon. Aside from that, no manual transmissions rules them out for me.

You guys can re-gurge the same anti F30 rhetoric all you want about having no steering feel, poor handling, etc. But I will take the car with a stiff unibody, 50/50 balance, best in class drivetrains, and a MANUAL TRANSMISSION any day.


When other car companies give me that when BMW won't, I will be happy to spend my money elsewhere. The only company close for me is Cadillac of all things, it does some things better than my car, other's not so much.

[Quasimodem]

Originally Posted by alexmtl_135i

Simple fact is that Mercedes changed their design and makes desirable good looking cars. BMW's new cars (1-3-4) except the M versions, are just plain ugly.

Are you inferring that BMW deliberately makes their base models ugly so that they can sell more M cars and make more money?

Nooooo, they wouldn't do that would they?

How is this possible? I am sure that it must cost a lot more to make a car good looking, and that is why the M cars cost more.

But seriously, I agree, Alex, and I think BMW is shooting themselves in the foot with their styling. Think about it. When you charge more for a car with higher quality components, it makes sense. When you start significantly changing the styling on these better-equipped cars, it will have to look better than the base cars, or nobody will buy them. But how can you make they better equipped cars look better if your basic car looks as good as possible? You cant, therefore you have to design a base car which does not look as good as possible, errr "ugly".

Now this is all fine and dandy if everybody has to buy BMW. But people don't and hence the base models of Mercedes and Audi look better than the base BMWs. So I think you have got something.

The answer is to make all versions look the same, and add small details distinguishing the better-equipped cars, such as logos or letters on the trunk lid.

[ddk632]

Originally Posted by Ezio

and you think BMW is moving toward more emotional cars ?

have you checked what engines they USE to make? and what they make now?

have to driven a new F30 3 series and other models ? the new electric steering is AWFUL !

you cant even buy a n/a Inline 6 engine anymore....

and if you read what scott said. the new flagship car is a ECO car..... they lost there true characteristics

I think BMW still makes emotional cars, and I stand by my statement.

I've owned a 1993 E36 325i and a 2001 E46 325Ci, both with the beautiful N/A inline 6; so yes, I know what engines they used to make vs. what they make now.

Yes, I did in fact test drive an F30 and I did not like it very much. It felt wobbly and handled worse than my E46 did. As in, not in the same league.

However, I also have owned and driven an X6 35i (N54, 2010) which I loved and was fun to drive, and am thoroughly enjoying my X6M which is my first BMW with a V8.

Oh and that flagship Eco car ... I've got a deposit down for one, so I'm obviously OK with it. If you don't think the i8 is an emotional car I think you're missing the point of the i8.

Huge displacement engine does not equate to emotional driving experience.

In fact, my 1993 325i had 187 hp at the crank ... but it was so much fun to drive I cannot tell you. Although you already know.

In today's world of high horsepower numbers and exotic hypercars, I think sometimes we forget what is at the root of true enthusiasm for driving, for the open road, for a good canyon (I'm from Cali where there are canyons irrespective of my current boring ass location for drivers), a nice driver-focused interior, and a beautifully styled exterior. The i8 checks off all these boxes. It just doesn't have a monster engine and I submit to you it doesn't need one.

[ska///235i]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Our flagship car has arrived its called the BMW i8 and its a progressive take on sports cars like above in which now the novelty has worn off and become forgettable against other cars.

2015 is all about product expansion and it will also give a full sales run to the new BMW X5 and the BMW i3 which commenced sales in November and is yet to arrive in many markets. This will happen in the first half of 2014.
The year of course begins with the most important US show the NAIAS.

The new BMW 4er Cabrio also arrives to take advantage of the season change to Spring. As will the all new BMW 2er Coupe.
Spring also takes us into Geneva and the important autoshow of 2014 which will bring many firsts such as the BMW 2er Active Tourer and the BMW 4er Gran coupe.

Immediately after Geneva the Spring events continue for BMW with the unveiling of the new BMW X4 and LCi of the popular best selling BMW X3.

The alternative IAA the AMI in Leipzig will bring a BMW World Premiere or two as will the important Auto China event which takes place in Beijing will not only introduce the new models for the Chinese market but also a new concept car for further product expansion. And given previous Beijing concepts the Gran Coupe and i8 Spyder this reflects something special.

Always interesting...Villa d'este.

In the Summer we will see the new BMW M3 and M4 arrive on the market, and the LCI of the BMW 1er aswell as the new BMW 2er Cabrio.

The halo car for the BMW fleet arrives to the market with the 2014 allocation already sold. The new BMW i8.

We will also see the new BMW X6 which will take its world premiere in Moscow given that Russia is a huge market for the current X6.

On the M front we will see the introduction of two new M cars which will provide M with new "volume" models.

On the sustainable front the first of the eDrive plug in hybrid BMWs will be unveiled with the BMW X5 eDrive and 2er Active Tourer eDrive.

And a Cabrio of the BMW M4.

Of course there will be events , concepts , innovations, developments periodically throughout the year.
Not exactly a slow year expected as it is the precursor to the big news of 2015 - The all-new BMW 7er.

We will also see prototypes of the next 5er and Z4 replacement and F30 and F12/F13/F06 LCi's.

The other brands have not been forgotten with the introduction of the all-new MINI leading to expansion of a 5dr MINI before the end of the year.

Rolls-Royce's Wraith is already sold out into the first half of 2014 and the Ghost receives its mid-life refresh which coincides with the Ghost V-Specification. With the enormous power delivery of the Wraith and a price tag to match.

mercedes and audi is ahead of the game right now...bmw is just catching up

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by ddk632

I think BMW still makes emotional cars, and I stand by my statement.

I've owned a 1993 E36 325i and a 2001 E46 325Ci, both with the beautiful N/A inline 6; so yes, I know what engines they used to make vs. what they make now.

Yes, I did in fact test drive an F30 and I did not like it very much. It felt wobbly and handled worse than my E46 did. As in, not in the same league.

However, I also have owned and driven an X6 35i (N54, 2010) which I loved and was fun to drive, and am thoroughly enjoying my X6M which is my first BMW with a V8.

Oh and that flagship Eco car ... I've got a deposit down for one, so I'm obviously OK with it. If you don't think the i8 is an emotional car I think you're missing the point of the i8.

Huge displacement engine does not equate to emotional driving experience.

In fact, my 1993 325i had 187 hp at the crank ... but it was so much fun to drive I cannot tell you. Although you already know.

In today's world of high horsepower numbers and exotic hypercars, I think sometimes we forget what is at the root of true enthusiasm for driving, for the open road, for a good canyon (I'm from Cali where there are canyons irrespective of my current boring ass location for drivers), a nice driver-focused interior, and a beautifully styled exterior. The i8 checks off all these boxes. It just doesn't have a monster engine and I submit to you it doesn't need one.

like i said you are the perfect BMW customer right now.

When did i say anything about displacement of engines ? BMW has never really made big engines to begin with. hell my M3 has a 4.0L V8. other than the Mclaren, its the smallest V8 i know of. and i love it. high revving n/a engines are great. but those days are behind BMW now. i prefer more of radical engine configurations. IMO the best BMW engine made in the recent decade is the old E60 V10 engine. but i understand times are changing and MPG is important.

[SCOTT26]

Some of you are still stuck in the past surely you must realise by now there will be no turning back.

BMW are not overly concerned that they came second. They know they have a strong chance in 2014, generally because the new models arriving in 2013 did not get a full run in the sales , and some introduction won't happen till 2014.

This is nothing to do with design or bad marketing or poor product choice. Mercedes has appealing models that attracted customers that wanted a special luxury car instead of domestic. Mercedes also ran heavy discounts on outgoing and mid-life models.
People like a bargain and they went with Mercedes.

BMW made gains in other markets not just the US. And they are still the no1 Premium manufacturer globally.

Regarding the i8. Many of you do not see the i8 as a halo car but it is.
Its exciting , groundbreaking , innovative and a shot in the dark for the industry.
The i8 is all about protecting your philosophy for a legislative future. But expanding your leadership and innovative creativity to be at the forefront.
There is no manufacturer at the moment at the same level of CFRP innovation in volume as BMW. You would be surprised how far Audi and Mercedes-Benz are behind.

BMW want to remain independent. The last Independent was Porsche....
Porsche was conquered.

Interesting to see the FWD BMW argument raised again.
Its interesting that some say you will run to Audi , which everybody knows is FWD and FWD based... funny that.

[w3rkn]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Some of you are still stuck in the past surely you must realise by now there will be no turning back.

BMW are not overly concerned that they came second. They know they have a strong chance in 2014, generally because the new models arriving in 2013 did not get a full run in the sales , and some introduction won't happen till 2014.

This is nothing to do with design or bad marketing or poor product choice. Mercedes has appealing models that attracted customers that wanted a special luxury car instead of domestic. Mercedes also ran heavy discounts on outgoing and mid-life models.
People like a bargain and they went with Mercedes.

BMW made gains in other markets not just the US. And they are still the no1 Premium manufacturer globally.

Regarding the i8. Many of you do not see the i8 as a halo car but it is.
Its exciting , groundbreaking , innovative and a shot in the dark for the industry.
The i8 is all about protecting your philosophy for a legislative future. But expanding your leadership and innovative creativity to be at the forefront.
There is no manufacturer at the moment at the same level of CFRP innovation in volume as BMW. You would be surprised how far Audi and Mercedes-Benz are behind.

BMW want to remain independent. The last Independent was Porsche....
Porsche was conquered.

Interesting to see the FWD BMW argument raised again.
Its interesting that some say you will run to Audi , which everybody knows is FWD and FWD based... funny that.

I don't think you understand too clearly, many run to Audi because a BMW isn't much different from them anymore. Surprised you have not noticed that particular demographic... it is the direction you have been pursuing.



BMW heritage is just lipservice now.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by w3rkn

I don't think you understand too clearly, many run to Audi because a BMW isn't much different from them anymore. Surprised you have not noticed that particular demographic... it is the direction you have been pursuing.



BMW heritage is just lipservice now.

There will NOT be a FWD BMW 3er.

[ddk632]

Originally Posted by Ezio

like i said you are the perfect BMW customer right now.

When did i say anything about displacement of engines ? BMW has never really made big engines to begin with. hell my M3 has a 4.0L V8. other than the Mclaren, its the smallest V8 i know of. and i love it. high revving n/a engines are great. but those days are behind BMW now. i prefer more of radical engine configurations. IMO the best BMW engine made in the recent decade is the old E60 V10 engine. but i understand times are changing and MPG is important.

Of course I am - but I was the same perfect BMW customer 10 years ago, too. It just happens that I still am even though there have been lots of changes since then.

I didn't say you said anything about high displacement; I merely made the statement that you don't have to have a high displacement engine for a real enthusiast's car. These days, correct me if I'm wrong, that is a common conception that I see over and over. Even with all of the various pleadings that the i8 should have had a TT V8 or other M engine, a sole reason why many people on this board have stated they don't like the i8 - lack of a monster engine.

In the final E46 days your M3 was blasphemy to some people because of the V8. Now the blasphemy is going to FI vs. NA. Either way different people become enthusiasts at different times (new generations, etc.) and whatever it is that drew them near, some or many of them don't like when it changes. I think that makes sense; what doesn't make sense is expecting things never to change.

My point was that BMW still makes emotionally appealing cars and despite the lack of feel in the F30 there are other cars that are fun to drive in the BMW way of old, maybe not exactly the same but the general traits are there. I'd love to drive the new M4 and see what it feels like. I don't think I'll be disappointed. With various technology to reduce turbo lag, newer FI engines are behaving more and more like conventional NA engines. Even the X6M has specially built exhaust manifolds that aids in this purpose.

My other point, which you did not address, is that the i8 being the halo car is not at all indicative that BMW "lost their true characteristics" as you stated.

I think it's a combination of adapting to new environments where MPG is important to many people, implementing new technologies, and still building cars that appeal to one's emotions.

When I attended an i8 event in Miami (in public) where many people had never seen it, and the BMW i Brand Manager gave a speech on it, people were impressed with the specs, but when he mentioned it gets 94 mpg, there was applause! These days lots of people do care about this.

On a quick side note, as to your point that BMW has never really made big engines .. they've had a V12 since the 80's with always at least one car with a V12 in the lineup, usually a 7-series although the 8-series also had a V12 in the 850i. I do agree that the majority of why many of us like or love BMW has to do with the various iterations of the I6. And, I do agree that the E60 M5 V10 engine is one sweet sounding, purely awesome masterpiece.

I test drove a 318Ti once before I got my 1993 325i and that thing felt like a piece of crap, not like a BMW. It was a 4-banger. There are cars in the line up I would never buy. But at the core, there are also cars that I would buy, and would do so before going to get a car from MB or Audi - which, don't even get me started on Audi, as the only one of their cars I'd even consider is the R8. With MB the choice becomes harder because I like quite a few of their cars, have owned several, and my favorite car of all time is the McLaren SLR.