[jphughan]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

but 6mt won in the correct situation.

Fifth gear did one too (don't remember if Cayman or Carrera), 6mt won on track due to less weight. And those buys Tiff and Plato could actually drive.

I understand. My point is that the performance gap between a given car model with one transmission versus another is not entirely due to the different transmission technology, but also the way that transmission was implemented in that car.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

I'm involved in my driving experience every time I get in the car, and even though I'm not great at performance driving, I'm 100% sure that with a DCT, I could beat me. And that's my marker.

The level of involvement varies for people. You may be involved in your perspective but not in someone else's.

That being said, I wouldn't mind a DCT if I had to. I agree it's still fun on track. I drive a 6mt and it's fun to heel / toe but since my skillz (lol) are better than the average bear, I wouldn't mind a DCT to get better lap times now.

Heel toe has been mastered already. I'm about an S2 manually. I need S6 now!

My wife has a DCT 135i that we take around whenever we both go out and it's pretty fun driving that thing around town/canyon and even once on track.

[captainaudio]

You want to feel involved? Take a car to a track and drive it at 10/10ths. If you are doing it in a car with s DCT are feeling uninvolved and are not having fun you aren't going fast enough.

Driving at the limit on a track requires intense concentration.and safe driving on public roads requires serious concentration and situational awareness.

If you need to be shifting with a manual transmission to concentrate on driving you probably shouldn't be on the road. What do you do on a boring, straight, flat Interstate where you cruise for miles in top gear?

I suppose since I did not get at MT in my M I am part of the problem but I hope BMW continues to offer MTs.j

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

No, your simplistic, better than thou pontificating doesn't really make me want to tuck my tail. I've tracked my last 4 cars, the E39m, the E46m, the E92m, and my current, about 10-12x per year for a long time. First 2 were mt, last 2 are DCT. So if you want to preach about how true enthusiasts only want mt, save it for your fellow "those were the days" buds. I'm involved in my driving experience every time I get in the car, and even though I'm not great at performance driving, I'm 100% sure that with a DCT, I could beat me. And that's my marker.

And as far as you calling my reference to white walls and 8 tracks ridiculous, I don't think you could even hear the whoosh. I want a performance car that performs. You want this sensory unicorn that strengthens your link to the memory of grandpa. Which is fine with me. Spend $75-100-150k on a car and configure it so it won't perform as well as it could. Your money, your choice. Just please, ease up on the preaching.

That's great that you want a performance car that performs. So do a lot of people. But if I came off as preachy, it's because you opened this discussion by claiming that those who would spend $150K on a car and want it with a manual transmission even though it would be faster with a PDK represented "the lunatic fringe". I never claimed that people who wanted the fastest possible car for their money were lesser enthusiasts or misguided, never mind lunatics as you did. I simply made the point that maximum performance isn't everybody's top priority, which is why I feel that there is a place for 6MT, as well as cars that aren't the GT-R or the Z06 or an autonomous vehicle that can emulate a pro race driver. There is also a place for DCT/PDK, the GT-R, the Z06, and possibly even fast autonomous cars.

[VCP]

Originally Posted by jphughan

That's great that you want a performance car that performs. So do a lot of people. But if I came off as preachy, it's because you opened this discussion by claiming that those who would spend $150K on a car and want it with a manual transmission even though it would be faster with a PDK represented "the lunatic fringe". I never claimed that people who wanted the fastest possible car for their money were lesser enthusiasts or misguided, never mind the lunatic fringe as you did. I simply made the point that maximum performance isn't everybody's top priority, which is why I feel that there is a place for 6MT. There is also a place for DCT/PDK/what have you.

It is BMW M's top priority.

[snaimpally]

Originally Posted by C5driver

While the subjective nature of "fun" may be true for the 6MT, the DCT is not a "hair" faster.

However you want to characterize the difference, it won't make much of a difference for a DD. Depends on the gearing too - perhaps they should offer a 3.46 option on the manual.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by Mr.SugarSkulls

An m6 is slower than an m2, m3 &m4?

That's news to me...

I believe he meant slower than their DCT counterparts. Which again, if you believe forum bums here, is also not true. Because no one but "them" knows how to drive a manual. Obviously!

[Mr.SugarSkulls]

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

I believe he meant slower than their DCT counterparts. Which again, if you believe forum bums here, is also not true. Because no one but "them" knows how to drive a manual. Obviously!

OBVIOUSLY.

[Falafel Combo]

I guess the f80 may become a collector item after all.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by VCP

It is BMW M's top priority.

Not really. You can buy faster cars for the money. The M3/4 especially in the current and previous generation have been about being one of the best all-around cars available, in fact Motor Trend called the E90 M3 the best car in the world here for how well it blended everyday practicality, comfort/convenience, tech features, styling, and trackworthy performance -- which is precisely why I have enjoyed mine so thoroughly for the past 4+ years and not cared at all that I could have had more performance for the money. And the M5/6 were absolutely not designed with performance as the top priority for what they cost.

But if BMW M decides to tilt the needle more toward performance by offering DCT to the exclusion of 6MT, that is of course their privilege since they run their own business, but judging by some of the responses in this thread, it seems they'd be doing so to the detriment of some business. But maybe if the savings on development and manufacturing outweigh the lost sales, they won't care.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

You want to feel involved? Take a car to a track and drive it at 10/10ths. If you are doing it in a car with s DCT are feeling uninvolved and are not having fun you aren't going fast enough.

Driving at the limit on a track requires intense concentration.and safe driving on public roads requires serious concentration and situational awareness.

If you need to be shifting with a manual transmission to concentrate on driving you probably shouldn't be on the road. What do you do on a boring, straight, flat Interstate where you cruise for miles in top gear?

I suppose since I did not get at MT in my M I am part of the problem but I hope BMW continues to offer MTs.j

is this to me? because I drive 11/10th (over drive, tire smoke, slower lap times!)

[raysspl]

This isn't surprising one bit to hear. The manual is a true luxury option for luxury car makers that it's paradoxical.

[gmfive]

I was hoping to continue to see innovation in engines and the power bump upto 700 horses. Reducing overall weight and improving traction don't have to come at the cost of a power increase, just my two cents. Push the redline up, as well. And hopefully, they can put michelin pss on all //Ms with 275/305 standard rubber for the M5/6. Maybe it'll happen!

[Alpine F31]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

The level of involvement varies for people. You may be involved in your perspective but not in someone else's.

That being said, I wouldn't mind a DCT if I had to. I agree it's still fun on track. I drive a 6mt and it's fun to heel / toe but since my skillz (lol) are better than the average bear, I wouldn't mind a DCT to get better lap times now.

Heel toe has been mastered already. I'm about an S2 manually. I need S6 now!

My wife has a DCT 135i that we take around whenever we both go out and it's pretty fun driving that thing around town/canyon and even once on track.

Something about you seems strangely familiar....

[ethanjoon]

The discontinuation of manual transmissions is very upsetting to me

[nick3753]

Just give us choices. I own an e92 DCT and it's great. But I would lie if I said I didn't miss rowing my own gears and often regret not getting the 6MT. Manual transmissions are mated to sporty driving in my mind. I think back to my favorite car movies growing up (I'm 35) and the driver shifting (even if so over dramatic) is a major emphasis of the scene. Watching Clive Owen toss around that e39 M5 and slamming the shifter around was such an influence on me becoming a BMW fan. I drive an M3 because it's fun to drive, not because of numbers it puts up or accolades it may have won. But sometimes I think having a 3rd pedal might have been just a bit more fun. And after all don't we buy these cars for fun?

[sdshah]

Get with the times and stop denying technology.

Manual drivers buy blockbuster stock.

[nicknaz]

He also said they wouldn't take away something customers wanted so if we keep buying manual f8x we'll probably keep getting 3 pedals in the g platform m3.

He is probably referring to m5/m6 and all the m suv are already automatic

[cc3]

Wrong decision BMW. You need to focus on getting the weight out of M cars keep the manual option. Look at what Porsche are doing with GT4

[Arcades]

Think Manual will stay around as long as people will want it.

Eventually though... Never know.

[Desert_Fox]

I don't know, BMW is a different car now. My E39 6MT 5 series feels ages different from a modern F10 or F30. BMW makes plush cars with plush steering, and with the flick of a switch you can change it into a sporty experience. Overall their cars are certainly improving as daily drivers, but as a weekend car they're lacking a little bit of flavor. I'd hope BMW keeps the 6MT option available for M cars, but for the run of the mill cars I don't understand the point. Just keep that FWD crap away from the brand.

[antych]

Originally Posted by JasonCSU

Some of that technological progress completely numbs the driving experience for me. Don't get me wrong, I understand the DCT is superior in terms of speed and efficiency. The thing is, I don't care. I prefer the enjoyment and involvement of rowing my own gears.

Don't buy a technologically advanced car then. Vote with your wallet, buy something primitive that lets you enjoy the ride in the way you want. You save money too, so stop whining.