[Mywifes335]

Originally Posted by OrangeZ06

That "our clients prefer no or low miles on X car" is a common bs thing car salesmen say. The guy said it to me when I called about that new 2016 Camaro SS. I told him I'd drive my Z06 to a dealer that wants to sell me a car. Oh, suddenly they want me to come in LOL

I'm just sayin! Right?!!! Test drives is the biggest factor for me - to really check off all the evaluation boxes.

It's funny...ONE TIME, I pulled up to a Ford/Subaru store to help my aunt trade in and buy her car. But when I rolled in I was driving my E60 M5. It was pretty funny I got swarmed. They even let me start up and drive (on the premises since they didn't technically own it) the used Viper they had on consignment in the showroom.

But driving up in a more expensive car didn't seem to sway the salespeople at the Chevy or Cadillac stores.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by Mywifes335

I'm just sayin! Right?!!! Test drives is the biggest factor for me - to really check off all the evaluation boxes.

It's funny...ONE TIME, I pulled up to a Ford/Subaru store to help my aunt trade in and buy her car. But when I rolled in I was driving my E60 M5. It was pretty funny I got swarmed. They even let me start up and drive (on the premises since they didn't technically own it) the used Viper they had on consignment in the showroom.

But driving up in a more expensive car didn't seem to sway the salespeople at the Chevy or Cadillac stores.

I think it was just those particular stores. I went to Maserati to check out a C7 & S6. My Z06 is a pile compared to what new Maseratis cost, but I was treated with respect & actually ended up talking car shit w/one of the guys for a while after the drives were done & then he asked me if I wanted to sit in the i8 they had. Of course, I sat in it.

[Fundguy1]

1 marketing. Every caddie commercial shows some person I wouldn't want to spend 30 seconds speaking to talking about why their caddie fit their unconventional lifestyle, family, wacky fashion, etc. Where's the man's man example in there? The exec who goes to the hockey game with colleagues or his kid after work? The triathlete doctor? The Lincoln Mathew McConaughey or the Bradley Cooper? Marketing sucks. Those are the guys who seek performance. Not florists. The original ATS commercial showed two guys saying wow. The new Elantra commercial does too. Why not actually show what you can do like GM used to?
2 the styling is polarizing. Like infinity cars, you love it or hate it. No middle ground. I think Lexus is like this now too. I don't like either. The dumb Lexus hourglass grill or the caddie vertical headlights and many lines not parallel to the horizon like interior door panel lines for no reason. Sharp edges and harsh lines vs sexy swoopy organic ones. Fugly.
3 they continue to downsize everything. Their new flagship sucks. Then need an S class killer not it's little brother.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

1 marketing. Every caddie commercial shows some person I wouldn't want to spend 30 seconds speaking to talking about why their caddie fit their unconventional lifestyle, family, wacky fashion, etc. Where's the man's man example in there? The exec who goes to the hockey game with colleagues or his kid after work? The triathlete doctor? The Lincoln Mathew McConaughey or the Bradley Cooper? Marketing sucks. Those are the guys who seek performance. Not florists. The original ATS commercial showed two guys saying wow. The new Elantra commercial does too. Why not actually show what you can do like GM used to?

Are you saying this commercial didn't make you want a Cadillac?

[Mywifes335]

Can you guys imagine a GM commercial... Showcasing the SS, Corvette full-line, Camaro SS, the ATS-V, CTS-V, and a glimpse of some future high performance cars?

Setting: racetrack, residential "dream" garage, an empty major city street at night.
Goal: show EVERYONE, not just enthusiasts, what GM can make
Actors: none. Just professional drivers - which the viewer will never see
Tagline: GM. We make muscle cars for every driver. (Copyrighted)

The commercial starts with some historical race footage in a collage montage, with dramatic music quietly fading in.

Then show all these cars taking hot laps on a US track. Make sure to emphasize the sounds...

Then show all the cars in a dreamcar garage, but also footage of each parked in the garage of the target market.

Lastly show the cars parked on an empty city street, zoom in and say the tag line.

At the end provide social media outlets people can go to find out more....

Whatevs. I think this commercial, if aired on Velocity, during televised races and in YT, would introduce GM to a whole new customer segment.

What was the last GM commercial and whom was it aimed at?

Right. I recall the ridiculous focus group Malibu commercial where some guy said its a BMW. Then there's the idiotic electric vs manual saw = pickup truck one.

The last performance oriented commercial was a Cadillac one with two dumbasses driving an ATS on a twisty road in Europe. #bromance

[Mywifes335]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Are you saying this commercial didn't make you want a Cadillac?

I thought it was a retirement portfolio commercial.

[nick3753]

Originally Posted by Beartato

That may actually be the "revised for 2017" gauges.

[Efthreeoh]

Yep, more of the BMW gets out handled by the GM product, so the interior sucks and I won't buy it. LOL

I drove the F30 and ATS back to back, each for a week and over 800 miles each on some of the best roads in the country. The ATS is the better ultimate driving machine, hands down.

And how long did BMW's "Joy" marketing campaign last.... Had to go back to the 30-year old "Ultimate Driving Machine" (which now is pretty much BS).

[Beartato]

I was looking for a picture of the 2017 gauges and saw the ATS has an electric hand brake.

NOOOOOOOOOPE.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by Mywifes335

I thought it was a retirement portfolio commercial.

One of the worst ever But the group that approved this is the group that approves all caddie commercialso. Pity.

[DieGrüneHölle]

They could end all the gauge cluster hate by putting the digital CTS-V cluster in the ATS-V.

[ptbarnacle]

I guess brand loyalty and prestige go hand in hand with investor participation.

Quoted from Zero Hedge

If ever one was in doubt about whether or not a brand can still command a premium price in the market, look no further than the recent global auto OEM valuation comparables produced by JPM.
One look at the comparable charts and you'll quickly notice that Ferrari is commanding a staggering brand premium from investors.
Even after taking into consideration that profitability (using EBITDA margin as a proxy) is significantly higher than industry competitors, we can definitively conclude that brand premiums are alive and well, although the same can't be said for the sanity of investors.

[Mywifes335]

Originally Posted by ptbarnacle

I guess brand loyalty and prestige go hand in hand with investor participation.

Quoted from Zero Hedge

If ever one was in doubt about whether or not a brand can still command a premium price in the market, look no further than the recent global auto OEM valuation comparables produced by JPM.
One look at the comparable charts and you'll quickly notice that Ferrari is commanding a staggering brand premium from investors.
Even after taking into consideration that profitability (using EBITDA margin as a proxy) is significantly higher than industry competitors, we can definitively conclude that brand premiums are alive and well, although the same can't be said for the sanity of investors.

Of course...these are the quantifiable intangibles that justify valuation. You still need fundamentals behind them to drive the multiple (investor demand) - save Ferrari - the outlier. Ferrari is inelastic. Regardless, these charts are all standard valuation comps showing the stock price (or market value) relative to the financial metrics (top and bottom line) of the underlying OEMs. I wouldn't attribute the multiples to just brand premium (ex-Ferrari).

I guess GM isn't breaking out financials by subdivision? In this case, Cadillac.

[BMWsully]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Yep, more of the BMW gets out handled by the GM product, so the interior sucks and I won't buy it. LOL

I drove the F30 and ATS back to back, each for a week and over 800 miles each on some of the best roads in the country. The ATS is the better ultimate driving machine, hands down.

And how long did BMW's "Joy" marketing campaign last.... Had to go back to the 30-year old "Ultimate Driving Machine" (which now is pretty much BS).

Now if only they could put some thought in to styling. One of the ugliest cars on the road for sure.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by BMWsully

Now if only they could put some thought in to styling. One of the ugliest cars on the road for sure.

+1

I'm afraid the big 3 mostly don't put much into their styling except for their pony and sports cars. For example, all the caddiesame go back 20 yrs to a styling look they brought out then on one car that everyone liked, so they used it for every car and suv since and just tweet it and make it slightly more obtuse each generation. But it's still 20 yrs old. Same with ford. That one was their yellow Tonka truck concept. It looked tough for an F550 pickup in 2002 but to put that on the front of a fusion ten yrs later and every other ford car is just silly.

[Vocans]

Originally Posted by David70

I agree the ATS's instrument panel is pretty poor but how is this not functional? I can tell my speed, gas, temp., then the three panels on the bottom can show whatever else I want. Also, seeing it this way requires a flash or some odd extra light as reality is it is black and you can't see the background.

I made a list of what was most important to me and handling, steering feel, weight, price, RWD, long term reliability were far higher on the list than the gauges. If gauges are the top of your list you don't want an ATS.

There's a difference between having gauges at the top of your list and having something completely unacceptable in a car at this price point. Between the gauges, CUE, the garbage haptic feedback touch sensitive buttons all over the interior, the steep depreciation curve, GM build quality, and Cadillac dealers, I wouldn't buy an ATS-V when it's priced the same as an M3. I didn't even bother test driving one.

[scoobysaurus]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

+1

I'm afraid the big 3 mostly don't put much into their styling except for their pony and sports cars. For example, all the caddiesame go back 20 yrs to a styling look they brought out then on one car that everyone liked, so they used it for every car and suv since and just tweet it and make it slightly more obtuse each generation. But it's still 20 yrs old. Same with ford. That one was their yellow Tonka truck concept. It looked tough for an F550 pickup in 2002 but to put that on the front of a fusion ten yrs later and every other ford car is just silly.

I'm sorry but isn't that exactly what every German manufacturer is doing these days? Something to do with corporate face or whatever...

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BMWsully

Now if only they could put some thought in to styling. One of the ugliest cars on the road for sure.

Nah, Acuras are way uglier.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Vocans

There's a difference between having gauges at the top of your list and having something completely unacceptable in a car at this price point. Between the gauges, CUE, the garbage haptic feedback touch sensitive buttons all over the interior, the steep depreciation curve, GM build quality, and Cadillac dealers, I wouldn't buy an ATS-V when it's priced the same as an M3. I didn't even bother test driving one.

If you didn't test drive an ATS-V how can you evaluate the build quality, gauges, button feedback, and CUE? Assuming one has to go to a dealership to test drive a car, how do you know the dealership as good or bad? As far as build quality goes, BMW doesn't rank any better than Cadillac and depreciation is about the same as well.

The BMW dealership in Virginia I used to have my 23,000 mile (at the time in January 2015) aligned said they couldn't align the rear because there was something wrong with the components, but they couldn't be specific. The SA thought I had bought the CarMax extended warranty and as trying to milk it. Keep in mind this was the same dealership and SA that I had taken my '06 E90 with 263,000 miles (with all original suspension components except thrust arms and dampers at each corner- replaced at 185,000 miles) in October 2014 and they aligned it right up and made no mention of the age or wear of the suspension. The Cadillac dealership I've taken my Hummer to for insurance work (rodent damage) and one recall notice has a fantastic service department. That same dealership I had a terrible experience with the sales staff however. Point is dealerships are dealerships. To go and make a blanket statement about how bad Cadillac dealerships are as a reason you wouldn't buy an ATS-V is just Roundel fanboyism.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by scoobysaurus

I'm sorry but isn't that exactly what every German manufacturer is doing these days? Something to do with corporate face or whatever...

Yes, but their identity face isn't so polarizing as caddie or symplystic as the 5 horizonal bars from the front of a tonka truck.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

1 marketing. Every caddie commercial shows some person I wouldn't want to spend 30 seconds speaking to talking about why their caddie fit their unconventional lifestyle, family, wacky fashion, etc. Where's the man's man example in there? The exec who goes to the hockey game with colleagues or his kid after work? The triathlete doctor? The Lincoln Mathew McConaughey or the Bradley Cooper? Marketing sucks. Those are the guys who seek performance. Not florists. The original ATS commercial showed two guys saying wow. The new Elantra commercial does too. Why not actually show what you can do like GM used to?
2 the styling is polarizing. Like infinity cars, you love it or hate it. No middle ground. I think Lexus is like this now too. I don't like either. The dumb Lexus hourglass grill or the caddie vertical headlights and many lines not parallel to the horizon like interior door panel lines for no reason. Sharp edges and harsh lines vs sexy swoopy organic ones. Fugly.
3 they continue to downsize everything. Their new flagship sucks. Then need an S class killer not it's little brother.

#1 - Interesting that the number one reason is because of the image and commercials that show people you don't want to be around and people not like you. Didn't see this coming on a BMW forum
#2 - Styling - no point in trying to debate styling so if you don't like it you shouldn't buy it.
#3 - Downsize everything - Not following, they have the ATS which is small, the CTS which is bigger and soon the CT6 which is big, seems like if you want a bigger car you move to the next model up. If you want a car bigger than the CT6 then you will have to go somewhere else.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

If you didn't test drive an ATS-V how can you evaluate the build quality, gauges, button feedback, and CUE? Assuming one has to go to a dealership to test drive a car, how do you know the dealership as good or bad?

X2, if you want a BMW so bad that you aren't interested in trying something else I can understand (but don't agree in principle with putting any brand up that high), but don't then try to compare them.

[Fundguy1]

#1 commercials are supposed to appeal to the target group they are selling to so you can imagine yourself in the car in this example. Their target group seems to be the LGBT minority crowd as I don't see any traditional white guy or girl examples. I think someone there thinks this will make caddie look hip but it's really not doing anything for them. See the other poster comments on the Jason Wu commercial as an example. Do I want my personal image associated with him? No. Personally I prefer the old stereotypes of mafia and pimp car over this crap.
#2 Styling. Styling should be unique, identify the brand, and pleasing to the vast majority of the population. Caddie and a few other brands have styling that misses on the third point. It's so overdone it's polarizing and like hillary or trump, you love it or hate it. This looses a lot of potential buyers who just can't get past the looks.
#3 BMW and most makers have upsized each generation for decades. Caddie, known for being the big American luxury car, has downsized and it's flagship car is now about the size of a 5 series. Even caddie has recognized this and says this is a filler until they bring out their real full size sedan S class 7 series competitor.