[mbanck]

However, there are always two sides to every story. While the buyers don't think an M340i or a C43 is a real M/AMG, M GmbH (and AMG? not sure there, but I'd guess they also do) do count them in their books as cars they sold.

It's going so far that BMW started calling M cars "M High Performance Cars" to distinguish them just so slightly from "M Performance Cars" (the M340i tier), in a rather obvious shot at trying to lump both of them together.

Now the M Sports package on the lower models is a different thing; you can get that on a 2er Active Tourer if you want. Though at least with the G20 3 series, it means some stiffer suspension (that can be deleted in some markets for the entry models) and sports steering; you can no longer spec those on a non M-Sport car (but could in previous generations I think).

[six75LT]

Originally Posted by mbanck

However, there are always two sides to every story. While the buyers don't think an M340i or a C43 is a real M/AMG, M GmbH (and AMG? not sure there, but I'd guess they also do) do count them in their books as cars they sold.

It's going so far that BMW started calling M cars "M High Performance Cars" to distinguish them just so slightly from "M Performance Cars" (the M340i tier), in a rather obvious shot at trying to lump both of them together.

Now the M Sports package on the lower models is a different thing; you can get that on a 2er Active Tourer if you want. Though at least with the G20 3 series, it means some stiffer suspension (that can be deleted in some markets for the entry models) and sports steering; you can no longer spec those on a non M-Sport car (but could in previous generations I think).

im guessing thats a decision made by the accountants and not engineers

[mjr24]

Originally Posted by amrazM

nothing has really been an true motorsport car since the E34 which was built by the M division and most of them still run with 300k miles.

dont let the m cladding get to you its not that serious.

Arguments like this are stupid. No, M Sport cars are not real M cars. However, I love when people say basically no car has been a real M car since "one of those models from like 30 years ago" that the poster probably has never even seen in real life let alone driven.

[NorCalAthlete]

Originally Posted by mjr24

Arguments like this are stupid. No, M Sport cars are not real M cars. However, I love when people say basically no car has been a real M car since "one of those models from like 30 years ago" that the poster probably has never even seen in real life let alone driven.

Mostly agreed.

E46 M3 had ~340 hp and did 0-60 in 5.2s.
M340/M440 have 382 hp and do 0-60 in ~4.3s.

E46 M3 could handle 0.89g of cornering w/ a 49/51 front/rear weight distribution.
M340/M440 can handle 0.91g with a 53/47 weight distribution.

Track times have improved, handling has improved, reliability has improved, interiors have improved, everything.

Welcome to evolution - the definition of "M" is not set in stone nor static, it is merely representative of performance.

I think if we didn't have like 5 tiers of M cars it would be more widely and easily accepted that the M340 / M440 count as M cars, but when you have the M340 > M3 > M3 Competition > M3 CS > M3 GTS it admittedly makes it a bit difficult with all the variants.

If it were simply 330 > M340 > M3 I think it'd be fine as far as the M340 / M440 being publicly accepted as M cars. I get comments from non-BMW owners of "ooooo you got an M car?!" and I just sort of inwardly sigh at this point - too much to try and explain the nuance and differences to nontechnical, non-enthusiast people who are just trying to show some appreciation for a nice car. I just say something like "yeah pretty much, just a different engine...hah...". Might as well lean into it and roll with it.

[OSee]

Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete

Welcome to evolution - the definition of "M" is not set in stone nor static, it is merely representative of performance.

I totally agree. And BMW is being purposely vague and refraining from defining what a "M" car is or isn't.

Professional automobile journalists also contribute heavily to the idea that a m340i (or whatever) aren't real M cars. It's mentioned in the title or first paragraph of every review.

[brad850csi]

Originally Posted by OSee

The BMW enthusiast world collectively gasped when BMW announced that M-Sport would become more than just a trim. And on exhale, in chorus, “the M is just for marketing now!”

I’m seeing a lot of defenders in here now. So what’s changed that perception? Any specific car? M240? M550? M340? M440?

I think for me the M badging is OK when there isn't an M car AND when the car is quite different to other models in the range. Such as:

M135i, M140i in the F20 generation as it was the only 6 cylinder in the range, unique body work and so on

M760Li due to the same reasons, just 12 cylinders

I don't like how there is an M340i, then an M3, or M550i, then an M5.

[Fined]

Based on this thread (and others on this forum) BMW owners care way too much about this kinda thing. You buy the car you like, they buy what they like everyone is secure in their manhood/ladyhood and moves on with their lives. Folks seriously going on about the little plastic letters and numbers on the back of someone elses car..? wtf..

[MJBO]

I feel like M cars started to lose their status when they lost their special engines.

You couldn’t buy a “normal” BMW with an S65, S85, S54, etc.

Today’s M cars have reworked engines from the standard lines, and they’ve dropped the sharper DCT in favour of the too-smooth ZF even in the M3/M4.

Don’t get me wrong, the new cars are crazy fast and capable, but it’s come at the expense of the raw and more rarified driving experience.

My 2020 G01 X3 30i came with M badges all over it, it’s kinda silly.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by MJBO

Don’t get me wrong, the new cars are crazy fast and capable, but it’s come at the expense of the raw and more rarified driving experience.

Aren't we back to the core issue? We (most of us) have moved on. BMW certainly have, along with the rest of the motoring industry.

[Sublime00]

I'm honestly surprised that real M vs fake M or how people refer to their cars is this polarizing lol.

Who gives a fuck?

It's your car, call it whatever you want.

[JustinHEMI]

I don't particularly care how BMW labels their cars, but I hate upbadging. Eff those people.

[gqgambler]

Nope
And this is a silly debate. Most people on the forum will probably agree, but we are the minority. I've owned both M and M Sport cars and have bought each for their purpose and my desires. The M Sport is about looks and impression with some performance improvements, but performance is not their focus. Its a way for BMW to make affordable cars more visually appealing to the masses; i.e. I really like the look of an M car, but can't afford a full M. BMW is not alone as everyone does this on their cars and it works, they sell so why not keep doing it. It does dilute the brand to us enthusiast, but it helps with sales.

[Dagamus_NM]

They are all going to be electric soon enough. Then there will really be few differences.

[dscabra]

Originally Posted by Dagamus_NM

They are all going to be electric soon enough. Then there will really be few differences.

Oh, don't be silly! The M electric cars will have 4 x 1.21 jigawatt motors.

[TruthOne]

LOL @ what bothers people. First world problems. So if you buy an M car and don't track it are you a poser?

[xxpanipuri]

Its only an m-car if the MOTOR has an S in the engine code...

the m550i has an n63tu motor where the m5 has s63tu motor...

in the 1990 BMW made a BMW 850CSI - which was a bmw motorsport built v12..

where the 840i / 850i were NOT motorsport built motors...

[OSee]

Originally Posted by xxpanipuri

Its only an m-car if the MOTOR has an S in the engine code...

the m550i has an n63tu motor where the m5 has s63tu motor...

in the 1990 BMW made a BMW 850CSI - which was a bmw motorsport built v12..

where the 840i / 850i were NOT motorsport built motors...

So what do you make of the OG M2?

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by xxpanipuri

Its only an m-car if the MOTOR has an S in the engine code...

The early M635CSi had the M88 engine with more power than the later detuned S38 engine used in the US M6. Same for the original M5 which used the M88 prior to US introduction with the detuned S38. Even the M1 used the M88 engine. So the first M-car was . . . not an M-car?

We used to be told an M-car had to have one throttle per cylinder, batteries in the trunk, and two pairs of exhaust pipes, which left out plenty of "real" M-cars and all M-cars since the advent of turbos on M-cars. It does, however leave the door wide open for my 1964 BMW 700S Convertible which has two cylinders each with its own carburetor and throttle, battery in the rear "trunk" where the engine sits (mid-engine, in reality) and four tailpipes which is double the number of cylinder courtesy of its Abarth exhaust it was delivered with at the factory.

[Vivek.]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

The early M635CSi had the M88 engine with more power than the later detuned S38 engine used in the US M6. Same for the original M5 which used the M88 prior to US introduction with the detuned S38. Even the M1 used the M88 engine. So the first M-car was . . . not an M-car?

We used to be told an M-car had to have one throttle per cylinder, batteries in the trunk, and two pairs of exhaust pipes, which left out plenty of "real" M-cars and all M-cars since the advent of turbos on M-cars. It does, however leave the door wide open for my 1964 BMW 700S Convertible which has two cylinders each with its own carburetor and throttle, battery in the rear "trunk" where the engine sits (mid-engine, in reality) and four tailpipes which is double the number of cylinder courtesy of its Abarth exhaust it was delivered with at the factory.

Fully agreed--so many posters are making claims that don't align with M GMBH history.

What're your thoughts on the "IS" trim level that was offered on the 3-series from e30 thru e92 (except e46?)? To me it seems like the precursor to the current M-performance models like an M340i; back in the E30 days you'd even get a real mechanical LSD on an IS model, something that's today reserved for the "proper" M cars. Basically, a 325is in 1990 would be the equivalent of an M340i today, IMO.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by MJBO

I feel like M cars started to lose their status when they lost their special engines.

You couldn’t buy a “normal” BMW with an S65, S85, S54, etc.

Today’s M cars have reworked engines from the standard lines, and they’ve dropped the sharper DCT in favour of the too-smooth ZF even in the M3/M4.

Don’t get me wrong, the new cars are crazy fast and capable, but it’s come at the expense of the raw and more rarified driving experience.

My 2020 G01 X3 30i came with M badges all over it, it’s kinda silly.

It's not financially feasible to design a completely different engine any longer. I mean, it's arguable that it wasn't ever a good idea. S54 and S52 are not that far off of the types of changes we see in S55. S85 and S65 may not have been the wisest decisions. S85 is a great engine, but the character IMO never suited a 5 series, and they blow up at an alarming rate. S65 was more on-target for the car but still not exactly the high point of BMW engine reliability. Probably could have used more low-end torque in such a heavy car but cost forced them to chop 2 cylinders off of S85 and run with it. People love the 1M, and if they had gone the turbo route for S65 I think people would have still been happy with the E9x M3.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by OSee

So what do you make of the OG M2?

Or the wonderful and epic 1M for example....

Originally Posted by Vivek.

back in the E30 days you'd even get a real mechanical LSD on an IS model, something that's today reserved for the "proper" M cars.

G29 Z4 m40i also has an LSD.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by Vivek.

Fully agreed--so many posters are making claims that don't align with M GMBH history.

What're your thoughts on the "IS" trim level that was offered on the 3-series from e30 thru e92 (except e46?)? To me it seems like the precursor to the current M-performance models like an M340i; back in the E30 days you'd even get a real mechanical LSD on an IS model, something that's today reserved for the "proper" M cars. Basically, a 325is in 1990 would be the equivalent of an M340i today, IMO.

You're forgetting that the "s" designation in the E30 didn't get you any more power from the engine, just sport seats, air dam, trunk-lip spoiler, and a couple of other touches. In the E36 "is" simply meant it was a 2-door car instead of the 4-door. Don't remember any "is" designation in the E46 and even the ZHP option didn't offer a separate model designation though it purportedly offered more power than the standard car. It wasn't until the E92/93 that 335is actually meant more power.

My recollection is that when BMW offered LSD, you didn't need to order a different package to get it in most cases. It was just an option. I know in my E28 535is most of those came with it but it was still the same option as it was in the regular 535i.