[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by shiftdnb

You realize his statements and this energy and fuel crisis isn't just about gasoline? Oil is used from everything from gasoline to plastics and chemical manufacturing to powering cities and heating homes. You say we don't have the infrastructure ready. Every single thing this administration has proposed is long term and not even saying we should do this within a year. , it's almost like he's saying let's get the infrastructure in place so we CAN do it.

….but let's buy it from Russia in the meantime.

[shiftdnb]

Originally Posted by M-technik-3

We also charge more for diesel that is less refined than Gas, that one has had me baffled forever.

You must not be old than because diesel up til about 10 years ago used to be cheaper in the US. It's a pretty recent change and diesel cars were on the outs long before the price change.

[shoei]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

EV motorcycle? I have been impressed with the MotoE bikes in MotoGP, but I still wouldn't want one. WAIT! I take that back. I would take one of those for track use.

Yeah it was nuts how quick he vanished. Then I realized Tesla plaid speed on a tiny aluminum frame lol

[shiftdnb]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

….but let's buy it from Russia in the meantime.

err, I'm pretty sure we've shut that down and it's a big reason why prices are up right now.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-...%20of%20choice.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by shiftdnb

err, I'm pretty sure we've shut that down and it's a big reason why prices are up right now.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-...%20of%20choice.

Convenient since he was being called out, but let's dial it back further. He shuts down the Keystone but then deals in Russian oil.

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by gjm120

Seriously! You don't recall him promising that during the campaign?

I do and will try to find something. But warning - it likely won't come from a "progressive" news source. They hide that stuff as much as your favorite Fox ignores anything positive about Biden.

Your demand for "sources" brings back memories of the Politics/Religion subforum.

Originally Posted by gjm120

Seriously! You don't recall him promising that during the campaign?

I do and will try to find something. But warning - it likely won't come from a "progressive" news source. They hide that stuff as much as your favorite Fox ignores anything positive about Biden.

Your demand for "sources" brings back memories of the Politics/Religion subforum.

?

You would think Claims like that would be easy to find…. On any news source. I guarantee any claim I make on here I can back up quickly

FYI I swore off liberal news sources back in 2008.

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Convenient since he was being called out, but let's dial it back further. He shuts down the Keystone but then deals in Russian oil.

Has our Importation of Russian oil changed since he was elected?

[gjm120]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Or the System's Paver worker using a circular saw and an ancillary tool at the same time. People are living pipe dreams with this EV thing.

Agree with both of you. I did say 'a lot' not a complete flip to EV's.

But I think the US runs at around 40% of capacity. So much capacity is built to handle the peak loads. But on this the devil is in the details.

BTW - I find Formula E and EV's in general to be horribly boring.

[shiftdnb]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Convenient since he was being called out, but let's dial it back further. He shuts down the Keystone but then deals in Russian oil.

I invite you to read this excerpt from an article about the pipeline. Try to read it with an "open-mind"

The Keystone XL pipeline, briefly explained
The Keystone XL pipeline became an almost perfect example of the various stakeholders — Native communities, climate activists, scientists, policymakers, farmers, landowners, and everyday citizens — engaging in the broader debate about climate change.

Canada-based TC Energy first proposed the 1,200 mile Keystone XL pipeline in 2008 as a way to quickly pump 830,000 barrels of tar sands (a.k.a. oil sands) per day from Canada’s Alberta province across the border to Steele City, Nebraska. Once there, the Keystone XL extension would converge with existing pipeline infrastructure, traveling south to Texas for processing in Gulf Coast oil refineries.

A map of the US and Canada shows the proposed path for the Keystone XL pipeline south from Hardisty, Alberta through Montana and into Steele City, Nebraska where it joins existing infrastructure to flow south to Port Arthur, Texas where it will be sent to refineries.
A map of the proposed Keystone XL extension. Laris Karklis/The Washington Post via Getty Images
When the idea for Keystone XL was conceived back in the 2000s, the project made a lot of sense — the US economy depended on oil, and supporters of the pipeline claimed it was in both countries’ interest to find a way to transport oil efficiently across the continent. With oil prices high and demand steady, Alberta’s oil sands easily racked up $200 billion in investment.

But there are considerable differences between oil from Alberta’s tar sands and conventional oil, which quickly began to wear on the region.

For starters, extracting oil from Alberta’s oil sands, which contain bitumen (tar), a dense type of petroleum, takes a lot of energy. Most of Canada’s tar sands oil is trapped beneath boreal forest — only 20 percent of the oil is located near the earth’s surface, where it can be easily mined, which means the forest must be cleared for the most intensive mining.

The majority of the oil is mined by injecting hot water into wells 75 meters below ground to liquefy the oil for pumping, which is why tar sands oil has a reputation for being among the dirtiest types of oil.

Many Indigenous rights groups and people from communities along the proposed route argued the pipeline extension would have disastrous impacts for Native communities in Alberta: A lot of the water used to help extract oil from Alberta’s oil sands comes from the Athabasca River. Studies have linked leaks from oil sands pipelines like Keystone XL to significant degradation of nearby land and water resources.

A major concern is tailings ponds, the product of toxic waste from mining in the tar sands that can sicken communities and wildlife that depend on the land to survive.

“The land is our solution, the water is our solution, the air is our solution to meet our needs,” Jesse Cardinal of the Kikino Metis Settlement, director of Keepers of the Water, a collective of First Nations who have come together to protect the nearby Mackenzie River Basin, told me. Cardinal helped lead the Tar Sands Healing Walk, a grassroots movement to bring people face to face with the destruction of the oil sands as a way of healing.

Environmental groups took note of Indigenous opposition to the Keystone XL pipeline. After then-President Barack Obama’s climate legislation suffered a stinging defeat, the climate movement coalesced around getting the Keystone XL pipeline canceled in 2011.

Inspired by Indigenous-led opposition to the pipeline, several environmental groups organized two weeks of sit-ins in front of the White House in the fall of 2011, leading to the arrest of more than 1,200 people. The arrests brought increased media attention at a time when there was relatively little national coverage of climate-change-related issues.

James Hansen, who has been called the “father of global warming” for his role in testifying before Congress about the science of human-induced climate change way back in 1988, attended the protests at the White House. At the time, Hansen said unchecked exploitation of Canada’s oil sands would be “game over” for the climate.

Facing immense pressure from the anti-Keystone movement, Obama finally canceled the pipeline in 2015. He defended his decision in a press conference, saying the pipeline wouldn’t make gas any cheaper or improve American energy security. He added that approving the pipeline would ultimately undercut US global leadership on climate change, which he’d previously said was a red line for approving Keystone XL.

In January 2016, TC Energy filed a lawsuit against the US for canceling Keystone XL, using the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) to request $15 billion in damages for what the company said was the arbitrary suspension of the project. The company then waited to try its luck with the next administration — which turned out to be Trump’s.

Keystone XL starts — and stops — under Trump
In January 2017, just days into his presidency, President Donald Trump issued an executive order inviting TC Energy to reapply for a presidential permit for Keystone XL to cross the Canadian border. He also promised a speedy process, just over a year after Obama had said the pipeline extension wasn’t in the national interest.

A few months later, the State Department granted the permit.

But Obama’s reasons for canceling Keystone XL — it wasn’t in America’s national interest, and it conflicted with US leadership on climate change — were still valid, and activists (and much of the public) were still paying attention.

“Before Obama’s decision, pipeline companies and the oil industry assumed every pipeline would get approved regardless of how poorly conceived the project was,” the NRDC’s Swift told me.

After Obama’s decision, it became more difficult to justify Keystone XL to the public.

“Public scrutiny around Keystone XL and the permitting process has shifted the expectation that pipelines would be rubber-stamped on its head. Now the public does want to see a robust analysis and a confirmation process that does make it difficult to move such pipelines forward,” Swift said.

Because oil spills from tar sands pipelines are commonplace, scientists and activists argued that a “robust analysis” to examine the risks to water resources and the communities that depend on them should be conducted before the Keystone XL project goes forward.

In 2016, the National Academy of Sciences released a study that said diluted bitumen (which composes the majority of tar sands oil) differed from the other types of oil traveling through US pipelines in a way that makes it more susceptible to hazardous leaks. In 2017, 210,000 gallons of oil leaked from the existing Keystone pipeline in South Dakota.

“Any fact-based environmental review reveals reasons policymakers should not grant permits to fossil fuel expansion projects like Keystone XL in a world that is trying to avoid the most catastrophic impacts of climate change,” said Swift.

But the need for an environmental review didn’t stop the Trump administration from trying to rush through Keystone XL.

In January 2020, Trump’s White House made a last-ditch attempt at fast-tracking Keystone XL and similar projects across the country by limiting implementation of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA), which requires the federal government to conduct assessments of the environmental, economic, and social impact of its actions before getting started on any project.

But in July 2020, the Supreme Court killed any hope of completing Keystone XL under the Trump administration, siding with environmental groups from Montana who argued that the Army Corps of Engineers’ permitting process for the Keystone XL pipeline should undergo a full environmental review because it would cross bodies of water.

Biden killed the pipeline for good — but demand for it had already weakened
Demand for oil, which had already been declining for some time, was hit hard in 2020 by falling investment, severe storms that hurt production, and the coronavirus pandemic. And in recent years, Alberta’s oil sands industry, once booming with money, has had trouble attracting investment.

“With falling oil prices, both because of the pandemic and generally down since 2014, the industry is under a real squeeze, and we’ve seen a lot of players exit the market,” Sven Biggs, Canadian oil and gas programs director at Stand.earth, an environmental grassroots organization, told me.

“ConocoPhillips, Shell, Statoil from Norway, [and] the Koch Brothers have sold their stakes in the tar sands and moved on, which means there’s less need for these pipelines than previously expected,” Biggs added.

TC Energy had a difficult time attracting private investors to Keystone XL — it was only capable of putting shovels to the ground in the project with the help of a subsidy from Alberta Premier Jason Kenney, who approved more than $1 billion in public funds in the spring of 2020 to help the project.

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

The grid couldn't handle every American citizen charging an EV even in the dead of night. The grid couldn't even handle all of Los Angeles County charging one EV per county resident. We have more residents in Los Angeles than some countries have citizens; more in the state of California than all of Canada. I'm starting to circle back to that population control thing. J/K!

Good Lord! Don't let Texans all plug in it once. We can't even handle a cold spell here.

[gjm120]

Originally Posted by Captain Blood

Has our Importation of Russian oil changed since he was elected?

Yes.

[M-technik-3]

Don't forget we don't want anymore Natural Gas Pipelines and we need to start converting to Electric heat for our homes. No Thanks, had a coworker tell me that his all electric house cost him 650 to heat and have lights on last month. No Thank you mine was 250 in gas and 85 for electric which is nearly double what last year was. $650 is crazy money for 1200 square ft. home

[hubbahubba]

You guys are something...

Supply/Demand. Right now costs are going up because there is a SUPPLY PROBLEM! It started the day in November that JB was elected. Look at the damn charts. It was increased when he took office. It was exascerbated when Russia parked troops on the border of Ukraine, and it hit full tilt when they marched those troops across the border.

IF! the US was not dependant on other countries for oil, and IF the problem did not have dependance on other countries, like potentially Iran and Venezuala to take care of the US need, this would only be a blip on the radar. (Iran and Venezuala are a whole different convo)...

We need to be energy independant again, and right now. All in, oil, nat gas, nuclear, EV, the whole shebang.

That aspect transfers further to mitigate the possible takeover of Taiwan by China. China manufactures all our crap. WHY? Because the lefty green whackos don't understand that it is one Earth. All of us are in the same boat. If China pollutes, it pollutes us. We are all heading down the same path. Period. Let's make it here, all of it, and when the atmosphere collapses, at least we have lived our best lives, and not given the golden years away.

All of this is a stupid conversation unless we take what the rest of the world offers, analyzye it for what it is, and make the best decision for those countries that choose freedom over tyranny. Period.

At least we can't talk politics on BP anymore...

[chris719]

Originally Posted by hubbahubba

You guys are something...

Supply/Demand. Right now costs are going up because there is a SUPPLY PROBLEM! It started the day in November that JB was elected. Look at the damn charts. It was increased when he took office. It was exascerbated when Russia parked troops on the border of Ukraine, and it hit full tilt when they marched those troops across the border.

IF! the US was not dependant on other countries for oil, and IF the problem did not have dependance on other countries, like potentially Iran and Venezuala to take care of the US need, this would only be a blip on the radar. (Iran and Venezuala are a whole different convo)...

We need to be energy independant again, and right now. All in, oil, nat gas, nuclear, EV, the whole shebang.

That aspect transfers further to mitigate the possible takeover of Taiwan by China. China manufactures all our crap. WHY? Because the lefty green whackos don't understand that it is one Earth. All of us are in the same boat. If China pollutes, it pollutes us. We are all heading down the same path. Period. Let's make it here, all of it, and when the atmosphere collapses, at least we have lived our best lives, and not given the golden years away.

All of this is a stupid conversation unless we take what the rest of the world offers, analyzye it for what it is, and make the best decision for those countries that choose freedom over tyranny. Period.

At least we can't talk politics on BP anymore...

This post shows such a lack of understanding of economics and manufacturing that I really can't even begin anywhere. The only thing we can agree on is that we should decrease our reliance on goods from badly behaved nations.

[shoei]

Originally Posted by chris719

This post shows such a lack of understanding of economics and manufacturing that I really can't even begin anywhere. The only thing we can agree on is that we should decrease our reliance on goods from badly behaved nations.

I don't think the other guy was speaking from a logistical or manufacturing standpoint. Obviously it's far more financially lucrative to have my packaging done in China but with that said, I think we ought to do a bit better than just - decrease our reliance on goods from badly behaved nations - I think what he was saying is we should decrease our reliance on goods from other nations, period, regardless if they're badly behaved or well behaved.

We don't need to be Wakanda isolated from the rest of the world but we could do more for this country or the country you reside in. Do you know how you know we, the USA, fucked up as a country? China stopped making English mandatory in their schools a couple years back. Tossed out western textbooks, kicked out all English tutors. So now, mandatory languages taught in their schools are Korean, Japanese, French and German and in that specific order of their importance scale. I'm not getting into a debate over China and whatnot I'm just speaking on this one alarming fact. That's how confident China feels that we're going to become irrelevant as a nation.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by shoei

I don't think the other guy was speaking from a logistical or manufacturing standpoint. Obviously it's far more financially lucrative to have my packaging done in China but with that said, I think we ought to do a bit better than just - decrease our reliance on goods from badly behaved nations - I think what he was saying is we should decrease our reliance on goods from other nations, period, regardless if they're badly behaved or well behaved.

We don't need to be Wakanda isolated from the rest of the world but we could do more for this country or the country you reside in. You know how you know we, the USA, fucked up as a country? China stopped making English mandatory in their schools a couple years back. Tossed out western textbooks, kicked out all English tutors. So now, mandatory languages taught in their schools are Korean, Japanese, French and German and in that specific order of their importance scale. I'm not getting into a debate over China and whatnot I'm just speaking on this one alarming fact. That's how confident China feels that we're going to become irrelevant as a nation.

Good information.

[shiftdnb]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Good information.

technically China didn't ban teaching English specifically, they banned all after school tutoring by private companies no matter the subject.

[shoei]

Originally Posted by shiftdnb

technically China didn't ban teaching English specifically, they banned all after school tutoring by private companies no matter the subject.

So I'm curious. Where did you get the word "ban" from? Using the word "ban" completely changes what I said - which I stand by because it's factual.

"China stopped making English MANDATORY in their curriculum." Certain cities (Shanghai) went so far as to completely remove it as a requirement. Even removing English as mandatory education for kids should tell us all we need to know. China makes calculated moves. They really feel that by the time these kids grow up to be entering into society, the West is going to be that irrelevant.

[shiftdnb]

Originally Posted by shoei

So I'm curious. Where did you get the word "ban" from? Using the word "ban" completely changes what I said - which I stand by because it's factual.

"China stopped making English MANDATORY in their curriculum." Certain cities (Shanghai) went so far as to completely remove it as a requirement. Even removing English as mandatory education for kids should tell us all we need to know. China makes calculated moves. They really feel that by the time these kids grow up to be entering into society, the West is going to be that irrelevant.

What's funny is it isn't as nefarious as you think. They still teach it, what they did is banned exams and again they did it for other subjects too. All it takes is a little searching and you can see this.

https://www.rfa.org/english/news/chi...021132625.html

Authorities in Shanghai have canceled primary school English exams in a bid to lighten the burden on children and parents, amid growing calls for English to be de-emphasized in China's state schools.

The Shanghai municipal government education bureau announced last week that primary school students should only have to sit final exams in Chinese and math, while other subjects will be subject to teacher evaluation with no test score.

What I also find hilarious is if they tested all students for any language like Chinese in America, you "patriots" would go insane. Here you are bitching they want to focus more on their language. Also, it's going to suck when China can no longer have any international pilots when they don't know English.

[cmyx6go]

Originally Posted by shiftdnb

You must not be old than because diesel up til about 10 years ago used to be cheaper in the US. It's a pretty recent change and diesel cars were on the outs long before the price change.

It's more than 10 years, but yes. Diesel used to be cheaper than regular. It's probably closer to 20 years. I think it happened around the time of Hurricane Katrina.

[hubbahubba]

Originally Posted by shoei

I don't think the other guy was speaking from a logistical or manufacturing standpoint. Obviously it's far more financially lucrative to have my packaging done in China but with that said, I think we ought to do a bit better than just - decrease our reliance on goods from badly behaved nations - I think what he was saying is we should decrease our reliance on goods from other nations, period, regardless if they're badly behaved or well behaved.

We don't need to be Wakanda isolated from the rest of the world but we could do more for this country or the country you reside in. Do you know how you know we, the USA, fucked up as a country? China stopped making English mandatory in their schools a couple years back. Tossed out western textbooks, kicked out all English tutors. So now, mandatory languages taught in their schools are Korean, Japanese, French and German and in that specific order of their importance scale. I'm not getting into a debate over China and whatnot I'm just speaking on this one alarming fact. That's how confident China feels that we're going to become irrelevant as a nation.

In a nutshell, you are pretty close to exactly what I was saying.

You guys remember a couple months ago, (and maybe still ongoing?), all the ships that were sitting off LA? Well, all the stuff that those ships carried was manufactured elsewhere…. What happens when any one of those nations that sends us all that stuff decides to go attack some other country? It could be China/Taiwan, but maybe any number of other scenarios. Are we going to continue to support such tyranny through purchase of the bad acting nation's goods? I'd bet not. What then? If we don't make it here, say goodbye to it. We should not sell out our souls for cheap TVs…. To think otherwise is just plain ignorant. If we need it, make it here. All of it.

[tgrundke]

Originally Posted by chris719

This post shows such a lack of understanding of economics and manufacturing that I really can't even begin anywhere. The only thing we can agree on is that we should decrease our reliance on goods from badly behaved nations.

Actually, that post was a pretty accurate summary of the situation, perhaps overstating Joe Biden's direct involvement to the point where you overlooked the message.

Joe Biden's campaign pledge was to significantly reduce fossil fuel use. Once in office, he killed Keystone. He has been actively signaling to investors and producers that this administration will be anti-oil. That sends pricing signals.

Next, add in the COVID snapback: more driving, more manufacturing, lots of pent up demand and fewer workers.

Next, add in three rounds of government stimulus.

Next, logistical and port traffic snarls.

Next, significant wage increase demands.

Toss in Russia's actions in Ukraine and the economic sanctions that weren't slowly rolled out, they were dumped - including from the private sector.

Finally, add in China's massive stockpiling of wheat, soy, copper and other commodities over the last 18 months.

Oh wait, we haven't even gotten to the best part: Russia's control over numerous rare earths like titanium, neon gas, helium and others. All needed for semiconductor manufacturing.

So, we've got a big confluence of events going on. Political signaling and actions have exacerbated the situation significantly - especially since we already had strained supplies and supply lines.

It's not a bad thing to move off of fossil fuels, but this breakneck pace is counter helpful. Germany (finally) realized this and is backing off some of their more recent moves to shutdown its remaining nuke plants, and has even begun discussing drilling in the North Sea.