[Vmaxx]

Originally Posted by NSX2M4

Whatever happens, after owning the R1S I will hold my F82 until a all electric M4 drops.
You are comparing caveman tech to computerized precision when comparing ice to EV.Turbos are 60-70 years old!
Unfortunately, chassis development lacks because the technology is too modern. I know BMW will figure it all out.

Right now it seems the M4 may not make it that far. If the all electric M car makes it into production it seems it will be a sedan only. At least for now. That’s another reason why there is a good chance BMW will extend ICE production and possibly develop a new engine for M products because that’s one of the only ways the M4 might survive.

[Erebor]

Originally Posted by Vmaxx

Right now it seems the M4 may not make it that far. If the all electric M car makes it into production it seems it will be a sedan only. At least for now. That’s another reason why there is a good chance BMW will extend ICE production and possibly develop a new engine for M products because that’s one of the only ways the M4 might survive.

There will not be another M designated engine after the S58.
Which leads to the conclusion, that there will be either electrified S58-hybrid M cars or fully electric.
Also, BMW clearly stated that the G87 M2 is (and will be) the last model with pure ICE drivetrain.

[Vmaxx]

Originally Posted by Erebor

There will not be another M designated engine after the S58.
Which leads to the conclusion, that there will be either electrified S58-hybrid M cars or fully electric.
Also, BMW clearly stated that the G87 M2 is (and will be) the last model with pure ICE drivetrain.

That was the plan, but as previously mentioned, BMW, along with other automakers, have been quickly recalculating their strategy due to recent trends and changes in the political environment with regards to EV regulations and mandates being reduced/delayed.

Check out the article below, this is just another example, and people I know in the industry have mentioned that this may not be the exact plan, but BMW is hedging their bet and also developing a new ICE M car due recent declines in EV demand and naturally increasing demand for ICE vehicles. So we may not see both pure "M" cars make it into production, but BMW is indeed looking into extending the ICE program.

https://www.motor1.com/news/711596/b...-and-electric/

[frankatcheson]

I was able to assist a client of mine by getting him to do a reset by pressing and holding down the volume roller till everything is off on the screens / he went back to the Flap and it worked

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Vmaxx

Toyota is wiping the floor with every other automaker. That brand has gone absolutely insane over the past 4 years, in the best possible way for them. They were the only brand last month that was able to increase their average per vehicle sale price YoY. They also took the number one spot and sold more vehicles than Tesla globally, first time in nearly 18 months. So as they say, the numbers don’t lie, and they are doing better than just about everyone out there.

We are also seeing targets and mandates for EVs relax, being delayed, or outright cancelled. This is due to multiple reasons, but Toyota is the one now cashing in on their decisions, while the others (except Tesla) are still trying to figure out how to make EVs work.

Only outselling VW by 1 million units is far from "wiping the floor" with the other manufacturers.

https://www.factorywarrantylist.com/...ufacturer.html

Toyota is, and consistently has been, behind other manufacturers for years in innovation, and new technology. Sales is only one measure of "getting it right" and the vision for the future. Co-opting other people's technology cannot be the plan for the future. That's the "Enron" approach.

Saying sales is the only measure of an automobile manufacturer is saying that Walmart is the worlds best retailer. It does have the most sales, but so?

When Toyota can't independently manufacture it's own EV, or it's best sport cars without the assistance of another manufacturer, I question the "wiping the floor" assertion. Toyota is very very good at manufacturing and sales - innovation not so much. The hybrids have been good, but up until now, have been sow pig ugly.

I can't say toyota is crap. I just can't. But, if I had to rely on modern Toyota engineers to design the future, that would be a sad sad day. Everyone driving a GR Camry would just be....yeeeech.

Shawn

[NSX2M4]

Originally Posted by Vmaxx

Right now it seems the M4 may not make it that far. If the all electric M car makes it into production it seems it will be a sedan only. At least for now. That’s another reason why there is a good chance BMW will extend ICE production and possibly develop a new engine for M products because that’s one of the only ways the M4 might survive.

All it is going to take is high gas prices and we will be right back to where we were a couple of years ago. OPEC has been keeping gas prices low to get people to stay in their ICE mindset. Once gas gets up again to 5-6 dollars, it's the end for it. But I get it, not everyone has the luxury to charge at home.

[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by eugenebmw

I can confirm BMW EV's are sitting on lots and dealers are desperate to give them away in Vancouver, Canada. I never come across with BMW Canada offer that low lease interest rate (1.99%)

So because I was bored I decided to look at what dealership inventory looks like. I started locally then just expanded to include a total of 63 dealers nationwide on new 2024 car inventory. All the Center of Excellence dealers plus others are included here.

I'm not in the market for a new car other than possible G60 540i so I haven't really paid attention to what's out there other than those models. I separated out between the ICE and BEV models based on how the dealer filter works. Very interesting to see that dealers are loaded with i4/i5/i7 models at over 60% of the total, but if you're looking for a 430i or M440i then good luck. Want an i4? They are everywhere.

Also notice where the incentives are right now. You don't give away $ on a product that is selling well on it's own. 7series is in its 2nd model year and 5er is only 6 months in from launch. Having lots of inventory says either you're planning on selling a huge volume or what you built isn't selling. What this will look like in another 3 months is anyone's guess.

Model/Series....qty.......%Total..............Incentives
4ser...................455.....10%
5ser...................936.....20%................ ..3.99% APR + $1000 credit
7ser...................382.......8%.....38%....... 3.99% APR + $4000 credit
i4......................1725......37%............. ....3.99% APR + $5000 credit
i5........................816......17%............ ......3.99% APR + $5000 credit
i7........................401........9%.....62%... ...3.99% APR + $7500 credit
Grand Total.....4715

[Vmaxx]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Only outselling VW by 1 million units is far from "wiping the floor" with the other manufacturers.

https://www.factorywarrantylist.com/...ufacturer.html

Toyota is, and consistently has been, behind other manufacturers for years in innovation, and new technology. Sales is only one measure of "getting it right" and the vision for the future. Co-opting other people's technology cannot be the plan for the future. That's the "Enron" approach.

Saying sales is the only measure of an automobile manufacturer is saying that Walmart is the worlds best retailer. It does have the most sales, but so?

When Toyota can't independently manufacture it's own EV, or it's best sport cars without the assistance of another manufacturer, I question the "wiping the floor" assertion. Toyota is very very good at manufacturing and sales - innovation not so much. The hybrids have been good, but up until now, have been sow pig ugly.

I can't say toyota is crap. I just can't. But, if I had to rely on modern Toyota engineers to design the future, that would be a sad sad day. Everyone driving a GR Camry would just be....yeeeech.

Shawn

That data is for 2023 and I have been referring to recent trends thru Q1 of this year. Especially March where almost every automaker saw flat or declining sales while also experiencing lower avg. sale price per vehicle. However, the trend for Toyota continues upwards while others decline, and they not only continue to capture more market share, but they have also been able to charge more for their vehicles while nearly everyone else is lowering their prices. That’s an extremely strong position to be in, and reiterates the strong demand for their products.

With regards to sales, we are talking about a company as a whole, not just one aspect of a company. I never said Toyota makes the best vehicles on the road, I mentioned their success with regards to what they have accomplished in the past 4yrs. They have continued to gain more market share, while increasing their prices and maintaining sales growth YoY. That’s not easy these days! Toyota makes good (perhaps not great) vehicles, but they understand how to leverage their strategy to ensure they are here for the long haul.

They have a wholistic approach, they are not focused too heavily on any one aspect of their operation. Their vehicles are not for the niche and are certainly not an ‘Ultimate Driving Machine’ because they are designed for the masses, so one could argue they will always be behind with regards to innovation.

Take BMW for example, they certainly rocked the boat with their innovative design changes on recent models and their new tech in vehicles. Some long time customers were less than thrilled with these changes, and although some eventually came around to liking these changes, others have decided to move onto to something different. So there is more risk involved with pushing innovation because it involves change and people are usually reluctant to change. People want more of the recipe they like, but just slightly better, which limits innovation. Toyota understands this, and has taken advantage of this characteristic in people. It may not be for everyone, but it’s for the majority.

So someone else may have a better designed vehicle, a more innovative vehicle, or even a more affordable vehicle, but ultimately if you are not selling said vehicles you won’t have a company for long. Automotive sales are much different than retail sales. Toyota selling 1M more vehicles than VW is substantial because it is not easy to shift that much market share YoY, that takes time and represents the very strong demand for their products. Also, automakers can’t easily swap out products on shelves like Walmart can. If an automaker has just one bad generation of vehicles it can bankrupt them or take them years to recover (Infiniti is one example).

Ultimately, you will hear most people in the industry wish they were in the position Toyota is in! And a close second is selling used Toyotas lol. Even a luxury brand dealer will get excited when they find out a potential customer is trading in a Toyota, and the total opposite if they find out it’s an EV they are trading in.

[Vmaxx]

Originally Posted by NSX2M4

All it is going to take is high gas prices and we will be right back to where we were a couple of years ago. OPEC has been keeping gas prices low to get people to stay in their ICE mindset. Once gas gets up again to 5-6 dollars, it's the end for it. But I get it, not everyone has the luxury to charge at home.

I agree we’ll see some changes in demand as gas prices change, but not as much as before. We’ve seen in recent fuel price spikes that although demand for ICE vehicles may decline a bit, the percentage of SUVs and trucks within those sales didn’t change much. So it seems people still buy what they want regardless of the gas prices. Also, the cost to charge an EV away from home has increased significantly over the years and is no longer much cheaper than fueling up an ICE vehicle.

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by Vmaxx

I agree we’ll see some changes in demand as gas prices change, but not as much as before. We’ve seen in recent fuel price spikes that although demand for ICE vehicles may decline a bit, the percentage of SUVs and trucks within those sales didn’t change much. So it seems people still buy what they want regardless of the gas prices. Also, the cost to charge an EV away from home has increased significantly over the years and is no longer much cheaper than fueling up an ICE vehicle.

When fuel costs rose leading up to 2008 people were dumping trucks like crazy; new truck sales slowed to a crawl and you couldn’t give away a used one. The “lifestyle truck” market wasn’t as entrenched in society back then, but was well underway.

If the economy doesn’t take a drastic turn for the better soon, I think we’re going to see the same thing happen. I doubt it will drive much EV sales as the entry cost is still very high. I could see the value of cheaper used EVs increasing, though.

[Vmaxx]

Originally Posted by Blue Angel

When fuel costs rose leading up to 2008 people were dumping trucks like crazy; new truck sales slowed to a crawl and you couldn’t give away a used one. The “lifestyle truck” market wasn’t as entrenched in society back then, but was well underway.

If the economy doesn’t take a drastic turn for the better soon, I think we’re going to see the same thing happen. I doubt it will drive much EV sales as the entry cost is still very high. I could see the value of cheaper used EVs increasing, though.

We shall see, but another big difference between then and now is the fact that manufacturers pivoted away from cars and now have more suvs and trucks in their vehicle lineup. Take Ford for example, they don’t even really sell cars anymore with the exception of the Mustang. So we may just see some killer deals on trucks and SUVs but I honestly don’t think we’ll see them drastically slow down as much as we saw back then.

[Blue Angel]

All great points! Let’s hope things don’t go badly and we don’t have to find out!

EDIT: right after posting that, realized a company like Toyota with smaller vehicles to offer is in a good position if things do go badly and more efficient vehicles are in demand.

[Vmaxx]

Originally Posted by Blue Angel

All great points! Let’s hope things don’t go badly and we don’t have to find out!

EDIT: right after posting that, realized a company like Toyota with smaller vehicles to offer is in a good position if things do go badly and more efficient vehicles are in demand.

Agreed. I have no desire to go back to $60-$70 fill-ups on a 3 series.

[bloozemanAZ]

NSX2M4 wroteRIMAC is a much, MUCH smaller company than BMW. They would be better off hiring RIMAC designers...

Originally Posted by TXSchnee

Rimac isn’t that small… https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2021...%20for%202023.

Exactly as technically it's a JV originally started as Bugatti Rimac so deep pockets already. Porsche then bought in 45%. So now it's 55% ownership by the Rimac Group and 45% Porsche.

So to your point far from small and Mate Rimac through the original JV is also the CEO of Bugatti. In other words deep pockets all around and no incentive for BMW to try and buy out Rimac or hire their developers.

[TinCanSailor]

Any word on whether this effort will include IP they lic from SLDP?

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by Blue Angel

Except if you need a vehicle that has none of the many drawbacks of an EV, but still want the efficiency of an EV for daily commuting. PHEV makes perfect sense and the market seems to agree.

Plug in hybrid might make perfect sense for a second car.

But I personally will never own one.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

What do you mean electric is clearly way beyong anything ICE has to offer [non-performance cars]? Just looking to understand your viewpoint

I personally am against the complexity of a hybrid. I’d much rather drive full electric.

But in certain parts of the world people want a performance gas car, but they’re gonna need electric when they drive into the city. For an example London.

So you drive into the city on full electric and then once you leave the city, you can fire up the fire breathing dragon again… 🤣

Once weight of the battery and the platforms can be reduced to something reasonable and the suspension and the tires aren’t being taxed by the extra weight then I believe the ice platform will drop off the face of the Earth.

I’m on my fifth EV in 10+ years.

My M car will eventually be replaced by an electric sports car, it’s just a matter of time. I have my eye on the upcoming Porsche 718 electric as the replacement.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

What does that even mean?

Originally Posted by eugenebmw

I can confirm BMW EV's are sitting on lots and dealers are desperate to give them away in Vancouver, Canada. I never come across with BMW Canada offer that low lease interest rate (1.99%)

It’s not just EV’s… They have to give huge incentives right now including low rates because the bank rates are ridiculous

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

Once weight of the battery and the platforms can be reduced to something reasonable and the suspension and the tires aren’t being taxed by the extra weight then I believe the ice platform will drop off the face of the Earth.

I agree. Eventually EV will make more sense once battery tech achieves a certain cost/energy density, we'll hit a tipping point and the market will shift.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by Blue Angel

I agree. Eventually EV will make more sense once battery tech achieves a certain cost/energy density, we'll hit a tipping point and the market will shift.

Absolutely, it’s just a matter of time

The dominos are already in motion… 💨

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

I personally am against the complexity of a hybrid. I’d much rather drive full electric.

But in certain parts of the world people want a performance gas car, but they’re gonna need electric when they drive into the city. For an example London.

So you drive into the city on full electric and then once you leave the city, you can fire up the fire breathing dragon again… 🤣

Once weight of the battery and the platforms can be reduced to something reasonable and the suspension and the tires aren’t being taxed by the extra weight then I believe the ice platform will drop off the face of the Earth.

I’m on my fifth EV in 10+ years.

My M car will eventually be replaced by an electric sports car, it’s just a matter of time. I have my eye on the upcoming Porsche 718 electric as the replacement.

All fair points. I am very much in agreement that the complexity of a hybrid (essentially you have 2 drivetrains / 2 engines) is not good. But imo, non-electric enthusiasts, will want it to overcome range exiety especially as infrastructure is built out. In that meantime dealerships, indy shops, and DIY youtube pages will be working overtime to pickup the elevated service demand.

I may disagree that the ice platform drops off the planet, the suburbs and country regions will hold onto them for a long time.

Best,
Antz

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

I may disagree that the ice platform drops off the planet, the suburbs and country regions will hold onto them for a long time.

It’s for this exact reason I could see gasoline being phased out, but diesel living well into the future. It may not be as clean as gasoline, but industry runs on diesel and it’s going to be a very long time before batteries can replace it.