[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Too fast too furious

Yeah . The rookies are not done yet ...

And sometimes the 5H1T is real (!)

Just wait for Hadjar . The moment when his Algerian blood starts boiling again ..

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Artemis

What Lawson has to do: keep calm + hands on the dash + resume.

he's basically getting is first FP session for this GP during the sprint.

his car was in the garage for 57.5 mins of the 60 mins in the only FP in this GP

not sure what Marko did to his car

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Yeah . The rookies are not done yet ...

And sometimes the 5H1T is real (!)

Just wait for Hadjar . The moment when his Algerian blood starts boiling again ..

I'm guessing and its a good guess that Kimi A is finding the Merc easier to drive than what Liam is in the still snakey like 21 and Hadjar crying like a baby which was a s#it show.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

I'm guessing and its a good guess that Kimi A is finding the Merc easier to drive than what Liam is in the still snakey like 21 and Hadjar crying like a baby which was a s#it show.

No one can drive the RB20 and RB21 like MAX did and does in a car with a setup mess..
The RB21 has still the setup mess , that was very clear in the FP as MAX was what ?
Right . MAX was P16 and that shows again , the RB21 is still a freaking mess to drive with..

But there's light at the end of the tunnel as the Red Bull engineers figured out from where the setup mess comes from .
It won't be easy to fix it because just like in 2024 it's a fundamental design issue, but they are having a plan to make it work at the Japanese GP.
Well ,let's hope it for Lawson ...

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

No one can drive the RB20 and RB21 like MAX did and does in a car with a setup mess..
The RB21 has still the setup mess , that was very clear in the FP as MAX was what ?
Right . MAX was P16 and that shows again , the RB21 is still a freaking mess to drive with..

But there's light at the end of the tunnel as the Red Bull engineers figured out from where the setup mess comes from .
It won't be easy to fix it because just like in 2024 it's a fundamental design issue, but they are having a plan to make it work at the Japanese GP.
Well ,let's hope it for Lawson ...

So a sort of situation like last year then.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by G30M

he's basically getting is first FP session for this GP during the sprint.

his car was in the garage for 57.5 mins of the 60 mins in the only FP in this GP

not sure what Marko did to his car

Lawson has a track record in racing. We can trust that he got extensive training in the RBR simulator to get him acquainted. Not the real thing, true, but it helps.

In a way, the early setbacks are a good thing as ego check. Up to him now to silence everyone with an excellent performance.

According to Jacques Villeneuve, Lawson has an attitude problem.

"Liam Lawson has 'very strange attitude' as Red Bull star called 'arrogant' by F1 champion
Liam Lawson's attitude has been called out after his Red Bull promotion.
http://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-au...euve-Red-Bull/
Express - Dec 25, 2024
Liam Lawson has been labelled ‘arrogant’ by 1997 F1 world champion Jacques Villeneuve, who believes that the new Red Bull recruit has a ‘very strange attitude’ that could hamper his progress in the sport.
The 22-year-old was called up to replace Sergio Perez in the build-up to Christmas after the Mexican racer endured a miserable 2024 campaign. Lawson only has 11 Grand Prix starts under his belt, but the New Zealander’s bullish approach has already created a handful of enemies.
Lawson agitated Aston Martin’s Fernando Alonso at the United States Grand Prix, with the two drivers carrying a feud throughout the weekend, which was the Kiwi’s first back in the sport after replacing Daniel Ricciardo. Then, in Mexico, he got on the wrong side of Perez, and even showed the middle finger to the home hero while overtaking him on the pit straight.
"It's early to say [how Lawson will fare against Verstappen],” Villeneuve told Express Sport in association with SpinCasino. “We've seen drivers move up to their main team and get burned really quickly. [Liam] Lawson has been quick and has done a great job in the main.
“His attitude is very strange, though. He's very arrogant for someone with such little experience. So, we'll see how that attitude works with Max and within the team. If Lawson is quick and pushes Max, there will be friction.
“But if there is no friction, it means they are not winners. Nobody likes the young gun coming in and pushing you. It either makes you go faster, or you throw your toys out the pram. New Zealand is not a country that brings huge value to F1 or brings sponsors. They wouldn't have considered that. They just want the best drivers."
While Villeneuve is concerned about Lawson’s elbows-out approach, Red Bull team principal Christian Horner believes that this characteristic could work to the 22-year-old’s advantage in 2025."

[G30M]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Red Bull proposed Sainz a one (1)! year contract . But Sainz wanted a 2 year contract with a + 1 year option .
And there were so many financial discussions . Sainz just wanted too much from Red Bull.

Tsunoda was pissed that they signed Lawson. Tsunoda was/is their rightful heir.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

So a sort of situation like last year then.

Exactly . It's still the floor .
The floor is everything on these ground-effect cars .

You can make or break the car completely with just very little adjustments of the floor ..

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Artemis

“His attitude is very strange, though. He's very arrogant for someone with such little experience.

i recall that. first it was Fernando (didn't see what happened), then he was bowling Perez at every corner.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by G30M

Tsunoda was pissed that they signed Lawson. Tsunoda was/is their rightful heir.

Of course , Yuki was pissed . And Yuki was completely right .
And today I heard , Yuki is pissed even more . Just look where Lawson is and where Yuki is ..

Yuki improved 100% (!)

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Lawson has a track record in racing. We can trust that he got extensive training in the RBR simulator to get him acquainted. Not the real thing, true, but it helps.

In a way, the early setbacks are a good thing as ego check. Up to him now to silence everyone with an excellent performance.

According to Jacques Villeneuve, Lawson has an attitude problem.

"Liam Lawson has 'very strange attitude' as Red Bull star called 'arrogant' by F1 champion
Liam Lawson's attitude has been called out after his Red Bull promotion.
http://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-au...euve-Red-Bull/
Express - Dec 25, 2024
Liam Lawson has been labelled ‘arrogant’ by 1997 F1 world champion Jacques Villeneuve, who believes that the new Red Bull recruit has a ‘very strange attitude’ that could hamper his progress in the sport.
The 22-year-old was called up to replace Sergio Perez in the build-up to Christmas after the Mexican racer endured a miserable 2024 campaign. Lawson only has 11 Grand Prix starts under his belt, but the New Zealander’s bullish approach has already created a handful of enemies.
Lawson agitated Aston Martin’s Fernando Alonso at the United States Grand Prix, with the two drivers carrying a feud throughout the weekend, which was the Kiwi’s first back in the sport after replacing Daniel Ricciardo. Then, in Mexico, he got on the wrong side of Perez, and even showed the middle finger to the home hero while overtaking him on the pit straight.
"It's early to say [how Lawson will fare against Verstappen],” Villeneuve told Express Sport in association with SpinCasino. “We've seen drivers move up to their main team and get burned really quickly. [Liam] Lawson has been quick and has done a great job in the main.
“His attitude is very strange, though. He's very arrogant for someone with such little experience. So, we'll see how that attitude works with Max and within the team. If Lawson is quick and pushes Max, there will be friction.
“But if there is no friction, it means they are not winners. Nobody likes the young gun coming in and pushing you. It either makes you go faster, or you throw your toys out the pram. New Zealand is not a country that brings huge value to F1 or brings sponsors. They wouldn't have considered that. They just want the best drivers."
While Villeneuve is concerned about Lawson’s elbows-out approach, Red Bull team principal Christian Horner believes that this characteristic could work to the 22-year-old’s advantage in 2025."

There's an old English saying in 'that it takes all types'.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Exactly . It's still the floor .
The floor is everything on these ground-effect cars .

You can make or break the car completely with just very little adjustments of the floor ..

We've seen the car undersides and its a hotch potch of thin fins.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by FC4

Sure.

How many WDC teammates has Max ever had again?

Fair point Max has had none, however, Hamilton, esp in his MB days, never had anyone to beat other than a teammate (both of which were absolutely terrible and he still lost to Ros and neede team orders often to get past Bot) because their car was so much faster that no other car was really competing - the gaps between cars were cavernous and beyond that the talent until the new gen came in was atrocious. There still existed the F2 cars running after an F1 car. Furthermore, there was no budget, no testing restrictions, and generally speaking a free for all for MB (including free tire tests and MANY penalties that the FIA turned away from).
Max not only took down the MB in 2021 with a slower car, but now has won 3 WDC (including one with the 3rd fastest car) in the regulation cycle that has been the most competitive, most talented (by good margin), and done it with limited budget, massive testing restrictions, and has had to beat many cars vs just 1.

Just to prove how tight it is, here are the gaps from P1-P10 from 2012 to current

2012 1.3 seconds
2013 1.2
2014 1.6
2015 1.4
2016 1.3
2017 1.5
2018 1.2
2019 1.1
2020 1.05
2021 .95
2022 .85
2023 .75
2024 .65

Easy to see that the margins were much smaller, and if you were to index on P1-P3 you'd be talking so much tighter than it was earlier meaning winning was more difficult. Max's 4 WDC are equal if not more impressive than Ham's 7. Max's were like playing the F1 game on 100 difficulty while Ham's were like playing 65 difficulty.

[Artemis]

And here we go again: "Hamilton is F1 GOAT" - "Verstappen is F1 GOAT" - "Would be WDC title this" - "Would/should have WDC title that" - "No meaningful competition WDC title here" - "Asterisk WDC title there", yawn...

To wrap it up:

• Lewis Hamilton: arguably one of the greatest F1 racing drivers of his generation.
• Max Verstappen: arguably one of the greatest F1 racing and sim racing drivers of his generation.

Greatest F1 personality of all time ? Opinions may differ, but Juan Manuel Fangio was definitely outstanding in many ways.

"In seven full Formula 1 seasons (he missed one recovering from a nearly fatal injury) he was World Champion five times (with four different teams) and runner-up twice. (...)
He had very few accidents and his only serious injury was a by-product of impaired judgement caused by extreme fatigue following an all-night drive in 1952 through the Alps to race in a pre-season non-championship event at Monza. On the second lap he lost control of his Maserati and crashed heavily, suffering a broken neck that left him with a permanently stiff upper torso. (...)
He was a true gentleman in every sense of the word, proving the exception to the supposed rule that nice guys finish last. His generosity of spirit, sense of fair play, invariable courtesy, surprising humility and sheer humanity were universally praised and appreciated, especially by his peers.
"Most of us who drove quickly were bastards," according to his rival (and Mercedes team mate) Stirling Moss, who called him 'Maestro' and said he loved Fangio like a father. "But I can't think of any facets of Juan's character which one wouldn't like to have in one's own." (...)
His strengths included being both a team player and a team leader of the highest order, providing inspirational qualities (he always befriended his mechanics) and making practical contributions (he often wielded wrenches himself) that invariably improved morale and brought the best out of the personnel."



Now let's move on.

[E86Z4MC]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Fair point Max has had none, however, Hamilton, esp in his MB days, never had anyone to beat other than a teammate because their car was so much faster that no other car was really competing - the gaps between cars were cavernous and beyond that the talent until the new gen came in was atrocious. There still existed the F2 cars running after an F1 car. Furthermore, there was no budget, no testing restrictions, and generally speaking a free for all for MB (including free tire tests and MANY penalties that the FIA turned away from).
Max not only took down the MB in 2021 with a slower car, but now has won 3 WDC (including one with the 3rd fastest car) in the regulation cycle that has been the most competitive, most talented (by good margin), and done it with limited budget, massive testing restrictions, and has had to beat many cars vs just 1.

Just to prove how tight it is, here are the gaps from P1-P10 from 2012 to current

2012 1.3 seconds
2013 1.2
2014 1.6
2015 1.4
2016 1.3
2017 1.5
2018 1.2
2019 1.1
2020 1.05
2021 .95
2022 .85
2023 .75
2024 .65

Easy to see that the margins were much smaller, and if you were to index on P1-P3 you'd be talking so much tighter than it was earlier meaning winning was more difficult. Max's 4 WDC are equal if not more impressive than Ham's 7. Max's were like playing the F1 game on 100 difficulty while Ham's were like playing 65 difficulty.

One year max was gifted the wdc. People even try to cite metrics like his # of wins, discounting that one of those was the shameful spa "race" certification. In a driver takes all race, max wilted and was a no-show. He was saved by a decision so erroneous, it led to the individual's firing. Even newey said he was getting away with murder for his driving (see Brazil).

Another year he won it was with the team/car having gone above the cost cap, so yet another asterisk.

Will be interesting to see if he can win in a car not led developmentally from the greatest f1 designer of all time that literally also happened to have his phd in ground effect 30+ years ago.

RB won't get a competitive driver in the seat by design. How else could you explain the 2nd seat not being a meritocracy all this time?

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by E86Z4MC

One year max was gifted the wdc. People even try to cite metrics like his # of wins, discounting that one of those was the shameful spa "race" certification. In a driver takes all race, max wilted and was a no-show. He was saved by a decision so erroneous, it led to the individual's firing. Even newey said he was getting away with murder for his driving (see Brazil).

Another year he won it was with the team/car having gone above the cost cap, so yet another asterisk.

Will be interesting to see if he can win in a car not led developmentally from the greatest f1 designer of all time that literally also happened to have his phd in ground effect 30+ years ago.

RB won't get a competitive driver in the seat by design. How else could you explain the 2nd seat not being a meritocracy all this time?

Ham was gifted a WDC in a cheating scandal the FIA knew about and covered up. Then, he went on to basically not do anything in F1 until he obtained a car so fast Stevie Wonder would have won driving it. That car was not only developed illegally, but MB used their influence in the FIA to get them to sign off on it knowing they had 4 years of development over any other team. Sorry, not sorry, but 2014-2020 all have a massive asterisk on them.
When Max got a half decent car he took down MB. Sorry but Ham went over track limits 28 times in Bahrain, where he only beat Max by less than 1 second. Had even a single appropriate penalty been given out, AD means nothing and nothing wrong happened in Abu Dhabi at all - well within the rules. If you also DSQd MB for Bottas' deliberate crash after Toto tells him to initiate 'order 66', again it was Max. Either way, Max outdrove a car so fast it didnt need good drivers to win. His RB cars have been the most difficult to drive while being the most competitive landscape F1 has ever seen in terms of cars and drivers with limitations that push the field closer together each year. Max has done what Ham never could twice - winning in a car that wasnt material and substantially faster than every other one. Going 3 years without a win in a car far more competitive than Max had until 2022 tells that in volumes.
Again a reminder that Hamilton begged Toto not to go after Max because he didnt want a guy good enough to absolutely destroy his image of being a good driver. He did that on his own by going 3 years without winning in the 2nd fastest car on the grid and by still losing 2 of 3 seasons to George Russel (LOL).

[E86Z4MC]

And yet, all things considered, he can at least say he's beaten teammates of significance in equal machinery at the highest level that speaks to the level of driver he is. Without this, how can you truly discern impact of car vs driver? Out driving Alonso as a rookie is all that need be said

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by E86Z4MC

And yet, all things considered, he can at least say he's beaten teammates of significance in equal machinery at the highest level that speaks to the level of driver he is. Without this, how can you truly discern impact of car vs driver? Out driving Alonso as a rookie is all that need be said

I was waiting for this. Outperforming means you did better. Even with his preferential treatment and getting upgrades and Alonso's data, he still did not outscore him or win more races. We must have different definitions of beating. Max would have won the WDC if he had the same level of car his first year which is why Ham begged Toto not to sign Max. Even Lauda, who worked for MB, and knew ever intricate detail about Ham, his driving, his data, said Max was a century level talent. He never said a single superlative about Ham that way.

Let's look at their teammates:

Ham -
Alo, very good but was largely washed by the time Ham go to the team and they gave Ham preferential treatment.
Button - decent - and by the way he, himself said Max was the most talented driver he'd ever seen and he also knew ham about as well as anyone.
Ros - absolutely terrible and still beat Ham. Not in f1
Bot - got outscored by Zho and was atrocious - not in F1
Rus - maybe a top 15 driver in F1

Max
Ric - was at the time one of best drivers in F1 bar none.
Sai - a top talent still in F1
Alb - a top talent still in F1
Gas - a good driver still in F1
Per - decent driver no longer in F1
Law - not yet known

So Max has not only had more teammates, but overall the talent level was as good if not better. Max has had 3 top level talent teammates and Hamilton maybe 2 if you stretch. Max has beaten them all into submission beyond recognition. Ham on the other hand has never dismantled a teammate like Max has. Despite most of them being sub par drivers, they have stayed so close to Ham or in many cases he still needed team orders to beat Bot, and still lost 2 of 3 seasons to a guy who probably should be lucky to be in F1 because he frankly stinks.

Also worth mentioning - Sai was offered a 1 year deal at RB but apparently declined. That is the single hardest seat in F1. Odd because no one fears Hamilton as a driver but they are scared, and shake in their racing boots at the idea of racing next to him.

[///M Power-Belgium]

In 3 ....

[///M Power-Belgium]

FORMATION LAP !

[///M Power-Belgium]

The lights ...

[///M Power-Belgium]

P1 LEW
P2 MAX
P3 PIA

LANDO is P9 !