[Matski]

Originally Posted by bodonx

The day BMW forum debates about sound systems, ultimate driving machine has died

Makes a change from people going on and on about the type of bulbs used in the tail-lamps!

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Xiaoxi

I'm ok with cheap interiors if it means keeping the weight down. And the interior feel, while not special, is not cheap either. Can't say there's been any creaking issues in my 2er. 1+ year, it's been very solid.

Sorry, but I can't take this seriously. You're opining about audiophile level audio quality in an environment that is inherently and extremely compromised. You cannot tell the difference when the car is in motion. Also, I almost never have the stereo on. Much rather listen to the engine and everything else. Regardless of my personal preferences, no one is using the CD tray.

By the way, my formal background is in music production.

Dr. Dre, is that you!?

Honestly, the H/K system leaves more to be desired, to my ears.

[nyalpine90]

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Xiaoxi

An environment that is inherently and extremely compromised.

Not going to argue with you there. But even in a less-than-perfect environment, sound quality matters: see below.

Originally Posted by Xiaoxi

Regardless of my personal preferences, no one is using the CD tray.

Yes they are. Me, for one. Particularly on the 2 Series, which has an audio system that is expressly designed to handle low-quality digital programming and make higher-quality programming sound just as bad, the CD player is a boon if you've upgraded anything -- even just the speakers.

Originally Posted by Xiaoxi

By the way, my formal background is in music production.

Please do a test someday. Drive an F22 with stock audio and listen to an audiobook at highway speeds. That's right: not music. An audiobook. Then, drive a similar car with the speakers and amplifier upgraded. You will change your mind.

See, it's not even all about music. It's about clarity. If you're in music production, you know damn well that good sound can overcome less-than-ideal acoustic environments. Good, even response across the midrange spectrum, combined with frequency adjustability and heft in the higher bass and lower treble realms, will make a voice audible over white noise. No recent BMW I've ever been in provides this.

The problem here is that if I'm buying a luxury car, I expect good sound in the audio -- or at least the tools to provide good sound. Not great sound, but good sound. If, say, you remove the CD player, then at least provide an easy way to feed lossless digital audio to the car and have it come out sounding properly. Will BMW do this? I'm not sure -- and if the 2 Series stereos are any indication, it won't.

[Xiaoxi]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

See, it's not even all about music. It's about clarity. If you're in music production, you know damn well that good sound can overcome less-than-ideal acoustic environments. Good, even response across the midrange spectrum, combined with frequency adjustability and heft in the higher bass and lower treble realms, will make a voice audible over white noise. No recent BMW I've ever been in provides this.

You're fundamentally talking about something different than Tracus

The speakers themselves make a great deal of difference that is clearly noticeable by just about anyone. You are referring to quality of the acoustics.

However, the audio source itself (eg CD vs mp3) is not nearly as easy to distinguish. In a controlled environment, it is already difficult to tell the difference between 44.1khz / 320kbps lossy compression and same sample rate lossless (CD quality). The difference in quality of the audio "snapshots" are so minimal that it is physically hard to tell. Say you're in a moving S Class with great listening conditions. I'm completely comfortable to state it is downright impossible to tell if you were listening to an audiobook via CD or mp3 (at least 256bps). They will both be equally crisp (in perception) in this environment. This is like arguing between Retina Display PPI and other high density PPIs beyond what your eyes can practically detect.

https://cdvsmp3.wordpress.com/cd-vs-...-test-results/

The problem here is that if I'm buying a luxury car, I expect good sound in the audio -- or at least the tools to provide good sound. Not great sound, but good sound.

I don't think it's a stretch to say when people think iconic BMW (E30 M3, 2002tii, or 3.0CSL, 1M, etc), they're reminiscing on the fantastic music listening experience inside...

I don't want to waste more time splitting hairs about this. This guy gets it:

Originally Posted by bodonx

The day BMW forum debates about sound systems, ultimate driving machine has died

[raysspl]

Minor hiccup in demand. BMW will adjust accordingly, no problem

[pbjjj]

Originally Posted by cc3

The key test for me is - other than some of the M range - which models are the 'Ultimate Driving Machines'?

I am not sure if any non-M range models can be referred as the "Ultimate Driving Machines."

I didn't realize BMW still refers their cars as the "Ultimate Driving Machines"? BMWUSA needs to update their website to remove the statement "Every model boasts near-perfect 50/50 weight balance—resulting in its renowned road-hugging agility." That has been a false since the introduction of the 2 series Active Tourer and F48 X1.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Xiaoxi

You're fundamentally talking about something different than Tracus

I don't think it's a stretch to say when people think iconic BMW (E30 M3, 2002tii, or 3.0CSL, 1M, etc), they're reminiscing on the fantastic music listening experience inside...

I don't want to waste more time splitting hairs about this. This guy gets it:

No, I'm not. When the media HDD in a BMW downsamples to 256 Kbps, a rate at which bass and treble frequencies are severely chopped and depth is all but removed, I'm not. I fight the sound quality fight because it is absolutely destroying good programming. Why record and mix dense tracks if the majority of its listeners won't hear its faults because they've grown up (or are used to) on material rife with EQ correction (example: Beats headphones) and data compression?

And no, he doesn't. But yes: I digress. To wit:

"The Ultimate Driving Machine" means different things to different people. That's part of what makes it a great slogan ... and partially why BMW makes models other than those "iconic BMWs". So: the "people" above that you're referring to are so-called performance car enthusiasts (Of which I am one, but I can see a picture past my own predilections) ... which the vast, vast majority of BMW owners, past and present, are not. They are luxury car buyers -- at least in the U.S.

To me, part of having a luxury car is having a capable audio system in it. If it doesn't, it's no longer "ultimate". In that respect (and others ... ), BMW is no longer living up to its slogan -- and that's totally why a discussion about a BMW's audio system is salient.

Context, folks. Context!

[Pentium]

Originally Posted by David70

I thought the 740 and 235 had the same twin turbo inline 6 and the 730 isn't offered here? Then my point was a car that costs almost twice as much but comes with the same engine.

The 730i/li is not available in the states, but it has the new 4 Cylinder 2 liter turbo B48 which replaced the old 228i/328i engine N20.
B48 is available on the LCI model of 328i which was renamed to 330i in europe and coming next year to the states...
so basically it's the same concept anyway

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by pbjjj

I am not sure if any non-M range models can be referred as the "Ultimate Driving Machines."

I didn't realize BMW still refers their cars as the "Ultimate Driving Machines"? BMWUSA needs to update their website to remove the statement "Every model boasts near-perfect 50/50 weight balance—resulting in its renowned road-hugging agility." That has been a false since the introduction of the 2 series Active Tourer and F48 X1.

Actually they are both still 50/50 even though they are FWD.
you can read it in page 12 of the press release.

[Law]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Actually they are both still 50/50 even though they are FWD.
you can read it in page 12 of the press release.

If Mr. Marketing is going to lie, at least be a good one.
A transverse FWD platform is not going to yield 50/50 weight distribution.

BMW's own technical specs on the F48 X1 tell a different story from Scott.


Given that the X1 is xDrive and still doesn't achieve 50/50, common sense only dictates that a non-xDrive transverse car like a 225i Active Tourer should be closer to 60/40.

Whatever the case, FWD/transverse BMWs are NOT 50/50.

[pbjjj]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Actually they are both still 50/50 even though they are FWD.
you can read it in page 12 of the press release.

The specifications of X1 on the BMWUSA website states that weight distribution is 56.4/43.6 %. Maybe one can still argue that it's close enough, but I can sense the front-heavy tendency when pushing my X1 into a corner. It's lacks the balanced feel that I got from driving my F30 328i.

I do enjoy my X1 very much but in different ways from how I enjoyed my previous BMWs. I would say BMW may be pushing it a bit if they want to apply "near 50/50 weight distribution" description to X1 and 2 series Active Tourer/Gran Tourer. I would still say X1 is very fun to drive, but I can quickly think of 2 other similar cars that provide more satisfying driving experience - Audi Q3 and Mazda CX-5.

[cc3]

Here's the answer from the boss

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/in...tant-car-sales

[mc3456]

Originally Posted by bodonx

Hopefully, the realize their new strategy doesn't work.

Luxury buyers move away to other brands. Stop making excuses.

The day BMW tarnish their iconic product, we know it will go down sooner or later.

Civic has better interior than 3-series. A lot of competitors handle better than 3-series. Go back to E46 recipe.

After owning 4 successive AMGs, when I test drive the M5 CP, I was utterly disappointed. It felt very heavy and much slower than what I was used to. I ended up opting for a completely loaded M3 instead and have been very happy with it.

However, when I tested the 335i, I actually liked how it drove very much. The only suggestion I would have is that BMW should upgrade the leather from Dakota leather. It is very pleather-like. Offering Merino leather and leather dashboards as an upgraded option would really elevate the car for those who only need 3 Series size. Likewise, it is time to update the exterior look of the M-Sport package, and also offer some additional color combinations.

[TheBry]

Originally Posted by kevinlevrone

BMW needs to realize that their latest cars are simply ugly.

G11 7-series - frankly it looks uglier than the facelifted previous generation 7-series.

I beg to differ, sir! Looks can be subjective, but as a former owner of the F02 (previous generation 7) I can say unequivocally that my new G12 7 Series beats it in every way -- including looks. This car is NICE!!

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Matski

Makes a change from people going on and on about the type of bulbs used in the tail-lamps!

It has. Go read the first few pages of the F30 Post Forum...

[bodonx]

Originally Posted by TheBry

I beg to differ, sir! Looks can be subjective, but as a former owner of the F02 (previous generation 7) I can say unequivocally that my new G12 7 Series beats it in every way -- including looks. This car is NICE!!

Yes looks is subjective. But, we cannot deny the the black plasticky door handle insert quality on G11.

They spend so much time to make everything on the door on par with S-class. Then, they cut cost by maybe $1 on the door insert.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Law

If Mr. Marketing is going to lie, at least be a good one.
A transverse FWD platform is not going to yield 50/50 weight distribution.

BMW's own technical specs on the F48 X1 tell a different story from Scott.


Given that the X1 is xDrive and still doesn't achieve 50/50, common sense only dictates that a non-xDrive transverse car like a 225i Active Tourer should be closer to 60/40.

Whatever the case, FWD/transverse BMWs are NOT 50/50.

Maybe Scott26 was thinking the 50/50 weight distribution was with 470 pounds of press materials in the cargo hold...

I wish I liked the F30, now sounds like the time to negotiate a good price for one. Do I hear discounts and 0% financing anyone? BMW is getting more like GM every day.

[gtron]

When I was shopping for cars it was almost a hassle to filter out all the BMWs for sale. Every page was flooded with them. I found it almost annoying. ha ha

I bet the residual on these are going to be horrible.

I hate to say it but their greed really watered down their brand bad. I can't blame them though, I like money too. I'm just not sure if I would ruin a cash cow for just one big steak.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by TheBry

I beg to differ, sir! Looks can be subjective, but as a former owner of the F02 (previous generation 7) I can say unequivocally that my new G12 7 Series beats it in every way -- including looks. This car is NICE!!

The 7er is not cheap. If you think the interior of the 7er is cheap then you have not been inside one. In fact in areas where the S-Klasse uses coated plastic, BMW uses actual aluminium for its switch gear.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Law

If Mr. Marketing is going to lie, at least be a good one.
A transverse FWD platform is not going to yield 50/50 weight distribution.

BMW's own technical specs on the F48 X1 tell a different story from Scott.


Given that the X1 is xDrive and still doesn't achieve 50/50, common sense only dictates that a non-xDrive transverse car like a 225i Active Tourer should be closer to 60/40.

Whatever the case, FWD/transverse BMWs are NOT 50/50.

From the actual Press Release from BMW AG regarding the X1.
[QUOTE][the BMW X1 is the likewise newly developed chassis technology, which ensures not only precisely controllable handling, but also noticeably improved ride comfort. Together with the car’s low centre of gravity, virtually perfect 50 : 50 weight distribution, a wide track, short overhangs, optimised weight and the impressive rigidity of the body and chassis, this lays the foundation for a driving experience familiar to BMW drivers but without parallel in the segment./QUOTE]

[lemetier]

BMW is being pro-active this time around. Other brands are going to find themselves falling in the same hole they fell down back in 2008/2009 trying to heavily incentivize leases to move excess inventory. It cost BMW over $2.1 Billion Dollars in losses and I doubt they'll make the same mistake again and risk the least trust rating that has recovered and prospered.

This goes far beyond brand DNA, values, and personal opinions about product decisions. Everyone will be hurting soon if they aren't already beginning to feel the effects.

South Florida, specifically Miami Real Estate, is a very good indicator as to the future economic trends. Chinese and Eastern Europeans came in, drove prices far beyond historic records and now it's starting to fall rather quickly towards a recession rather than a small correction.