[DB_Cooper]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

Maybe text your psychologist

I am good

Why would I text a psychologist ? I’m not buying any EVs lol. Poor effort at a joke.

And facts is facts buddy.

[Lex Templar]

Originally Posted by DB_Cooper

Why would I text a psychologist ? I’m not buying any EVs lol. Poor effort at a joke.

And facts is facts buddy.

Not his first attempt either.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I don’t know. Do you really think they won’t improve upon that? Because if they don’t, they’re screwed. There won’t be a 2035. There won’t be at 2085. If they can’t improve charge speed, electric vehicles will stay nothing more than neighborhood conversation pieces that self proclaimed greenies brag about at weekend tofu barbecues.

Let's leave Tesla out of it for a moment, because Tesla can't fill all the EV needs of the world and be the only charging network. That would be a monopoly, which under current law is illegal in the US; but who the hell knows, one Executive Order can change all that. But Elon bought Twitter, so... LOL.

Here is how I see it. In 2023 there is 400V and 800V EV architecture and public Level 2 and Level 3 fast charging. The internet says there are currently around 140,000 public chargers (the White House says 160,000). Even with 300-mile range (max on an ideal day) and 80% recovery (240 miles) in 30 minutes, EV acceptance is still going to be low since most of the driving public (above the age of 35 years old) wants an ICE equivalent recharge speed of 5 minutes. And any type of road trip is tied to routes where public chargers are.

Several articles on the subject of charging infrastructure tied to future EV expected take rate say charger installations have to increase 4-fold from 2023 to 2025 to get to 700,000 chargers (for a 40% EV fleet by 2025). If there is a magic new battery design that cuts in half the charge time and adds 50% range does the current charging network support that architecture without recapitalizing the network. I've seen some chargers that are somewhat future-proofed to deliver current at higher rates than current vehicle hardware supports, but there still is a limit based on physics. Considering Manufacturers are still competing on range and charging performance, there is no real standardization within the charger capability envelope of existing machine design. If EV does get to a 5-minute recharge architecture (vehicle hardware and charging network), can the average person afford it?

Engineers have been at EV tech for 30 years now. We've sort of plateaued at 300 miles and 30 - 45 minutes recharge rate to recover 80% range. Then throw in winter climates.

I still say the majority of the US market for the next 30 years or so wants 100% range recovery in 5 minutes and the ability to safely recharge almost anywhere in the US. It's a tough nut to crack.

The current ICE architecture and recharging network wasn't broken. As Alfisti professes, if there is a problem then fix it with PHEV. I say go further and take PHEV to a series hybrid design (like the Volt) and get on with life.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Let's leave Tesla out of it for a moment, because Tesla can't fill all the EV needs of the world and be the only charging network. That would be a monopoly, which under current law is illegal in the US; but who the hell knows, one Executive Order can change all that. But Elon bought Twitter, so... LOL.

Here is how I see it. In 2023 there is 400V and 800V EV architecture and public Level 2 and Level 3 fast charging. The internet says there are currently around 140,000 public chargers (the White House says 160,000). Even with 300-mile range (max on an ideal day) and 80% recovery (240 miles) in 30 minutes, EV acceptance is still going to be low since most of the driving public (above the age of 35 years old) wants an ICE equivalent recharge speed of 5 minutes. And any type of road trip is tied to routes where public chargers are.

Several articles on the subject of charging infrastructure tied to future EV expected take rate say charger installations have to increase 4-fold from 2023 to 2025 to get to 700,000 chargers (for a 40% EV fleet by 2025). If there is a magic new battery design that cuts in half the charge time and adds 50% range does the current charging network support that architecture without recapitalizing the network. I've seen some chargers that are somewhat future-proofed to deliver current at higher rates than current vehicle hardware supports, but there still is a limit based on physics. Considering Manufacturers are still competing on range and charging performance, there is no real standardization within the charger capability envelope of existing machine design. If EV does get to a 5-minute recharge architecture (vehicle hardware and charging network), can the average person afford it?

Engineers have been at EV tech for 30 years now. We've sort of plateaued at 300 miles and 30 - 45 minutes recharge rate to recover 80% range. Then throw in winter climates.

I still say the majority of the US market for the next 30 years or so wants 100% range recovery in 5 minutes and the ability to safely recharge almost anywhere in the US. It's a tough nut to crack.

The current ICE architecture and recharging network wasn't broken. As Alfisti professes, if there is a problem then fix it with PHEV. I say go further and take PHEV to a series hybrid design (like the Volt) and get on with life.

The city of Edmonton is now limiting the number of permits allowed to upgrade to 200 Amp services due to the impact on delivery. Folks want home charging stations but here is another example of the limits that are the reality. Mandating EV's is putting the cart before the horse, not really a surprise when it comes to government though.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/travel/new...am/ar-AA1a9bns

[akin67]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Let's leave Tesla out of it for a moment, because Tesla can't fill all the EV needs of the world and be the only charging network. That would be a monopoly, which under current law is illegal in the US; but who the hell knows, one Executive Order can change all that. But Elon bought Twitter, so... LOL.

Here is how I see it. In 2023 there is 400V and 800V EV architecture and public Level 2 and Level 3 fast charging. The internet says there are currently around 140,000 public chargers (the White House says 160,000). Even with 300-mile range (max on an ideal day) and 80% recovery (240 miles) in 30 minutes, EV acceptance is still going to be low since most of the driving public (above the age of 35 years old) wants an ICE equivalent recharge speed of 5 minutes. And any type of road trip is tied to routes where public chargers are.

Several articles on the subject of charging infrastructure tied to future EV expected take rate say charger installations have to increase 4-fold from 2023 to 2025 to get to 700,000 chargers (for a 40% EV fleet by 2025). If there is a magic new battery design that cuts in half the charge time and adds 50% range does the current charging network support that architecture without recapitalizing the network. I've seen some chargers that are somewhat future-proofed to deliver current at higher rates than current vehicle hardware supports, but there still is a limit based on physics. Considering Manufacturers are still competing on range and charging performance, there is no real standardization within the charger capability envelope of existing machine design. If EV does get to a 5-minute recharge architecture (vehicle hardware and charging network), can the average person afford it?

Engineers have been at EV tech for 30 years now. We've sort of plateaued at 300 miles and 30 - 45 minutes recharge rate to recover 80% range. Then throw in winter climates.

I still say the majority of the US market for the next 30 years or so wants 100% range recovery in 5 minutes and the ability to safely recharge almost anywhere in the US. It's a tough nut to crack.

The current ICE architecture and recharging network wasn't broken. As Alfisti professes, if there is a problem then fix it with PHEV. I say go further and take PHEV to a series hybrid design (like the Volt) and get on with life.

All good points but then I look at the Costco gas line and see a ton of people waiting on line for 15 minutes to save $3 on a fill up. These are the very same people who drop $300 - $400 every time they go to Costco and who are driving luxury brands and expensive trucks. Are people likely to spend 20 - 30 minutes at a charging station to save $30 on a fill up? I am guessing yes. And when you factor in the serene driving experience and stellar acceleration you get from electric cars, I am willing to bet electric cars will proliferate very quickly. Plus there is the convenience of being able to charge their car at home and avoid charging stations most of the time. If you follow advances in battery technology you will also see that we are getting closer to the realization of solid state batteries that can compress 2- 4 times the energy in a same size package as today's batteries. My biggest worry is that we are not seeing the necessary investment in the grid. If our demand for electricity doubles, will the installed infrastructure be able to handle it?

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by zero21

Pike's Peak is the only place an EV can outperform an ICE setup - I think we both know that. As such, it's kind of a crappy example to use with a 1 seater car that costs a million or more.

I think it is just a matter of time as technology advances, as investment is dropping off in ICE technology as little incremental gains are being made, but investment money from the manufacturers is now being diverted to BEV development instead.

The McMurtry also took the record at Goodwood this year, too, beating the previous F1 car record held by the MP4/13 by two and a half seconds, yet it is actually road legal in the UK.

It is expensive, but a technology demonstrator in many ways of what is possible.

I like my ICEs but appreciate there is significant change happening, I think the tipping point will be reached that the European manufacturers (at least) just won’t produce them in volume anymore (likely by about 2030 with phase out in 2035 to meet current EU requirements). Norway reached that point in terms of sales about 2 years ago, ICEs account for a tiny fraction of sales there now: https://www.electromaps.com/en/blog/...t-quarter-2023

Anyway, to pull this slightly back on to topic, I’m sure the “2030 H87” BEV will outperform the G87 in pretty well every area, c’est la vie!

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by akin67

All good points but then I look at the Costco gas line and see a ton of people waiting on line for 15 minutes to save $3 on a fill up. These are the very same people who drop $300 - $400 every time they go to Costco and who are driving luxury brands and expensive trucks. Are people likely to spend 20 - 30 minutes at a charging station to save $30 on a fill up? I am guessing yes. And when you factor in the serene driving experience and stellar acceleration you get from electric cars, I am willing to bet electric cars will proliferate very quickly. Plus there is the convenience of being able to charge their car at home and avoid charging stations most of the time. If you follow advances in battery technology you will also see that we are getting closer to the realization of solid state batteries that can compress 2- 4 times the energy in a same size package as today's batteries. My biggest worry is that we are not seeing the necessary investment in the grid. If our demand for electricity doubles, will the installed infrastructure be able to handle it?

I'd bet those same Costco people when road tripping are not going to stop at a Costco and wait 20 minutes to fill up. I've never been to a Costco, so I don't understand the mentality of it, but could it be a couple and one gets a head start on shopping while the other waits in line to get gas for $3 since he is already there? That's how I'd play it.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

The city of Edmonton is now limiting the number of permits allowed to upgrade to 200 Amp services due to the impact on delivery. Folks want home charging stations but here is another example of the limits that are the reality. Mandating EV's is putting the cart before the horse, not really a surprise when it comes to government though.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/travel/new...am/ar-AA1a9bns

Maybe to keep the ice frozen and the lights on at Rogers Place

[Sedoy]

Like always YMMV, I pump at Costco, they are continuously $0.35 cheaper for premium in my area. So let's assume 20 gal. tank = 20x0.35 = $7.00, plus using Costco VISA you get 4% off, so 20x4.00 - 4% = $3.2. So my total savings per fill-up are $10.2, plus I usually go after 8 pm when the gas station is empty.

Originally Posted by akin67

All good points but then I look at the Costco gas line and see a ton of people waiting on line for 15 minutes to save $3 on a fill up....

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'd bet those same Costco people when road tripping are not going to stop at a Costco and wait 20 minutes to fill up. I've never been to a Costco, so I don't understand the mentality of it, but could it be a couple and one gets a head start on shopping while the other waits in line to get gas for $3 since he is already there? That's how I'd play it.

No. But I bet they will stop for 20 minutes to eat or pee or just stretch their legs. When I go to NC in the Cayenne and the model 3 it takes about the same amount of time... and honestly I like taking the model 3 more... even though that was never my intention for that car. The difference is instead of stopping at a rest area I stop at a charging station which are always right off the highway. Even Bucees has charging stations now which is typically a place I always stop.

Plus why is it always the road tripping that comes up with EVs? Before we had the house in NC we would rarely drive more than 2-3 hours from the house, much less out of the state or across the country.

There's a difference between bashing government EV policies, questioning how we would charge all these EV if people switched etc to just bashing EVs for made up stuff. It's like bashing a 911 because what if you need to haul wood from Home Depot every week.... don't buy a 911.... buy a truck.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

No. But I bet they will stop for 20 minutes to eat or pee or just stretch their legs. When I go to NC in the Cayenne and the model 3 it takes about the same amount of time... and honestly I like taking the model 3 more... even though that was never my intention for that car. The difference is instead of stopping at a rest area I stop at a charging station which are always right off the highway. Even Bucees has charging stations now which is typically a place I always stop.

Plus why is it always the road tripping that comes up with EVs? Before we had the house in NC we would rarely drive more than 2-3 hours from the house, much less out of the state or across the country.

There's a difference between bashing government EV policies, questioning how we would charge all these EV if people switched etc to just bashing EVs for made up stuff. It's like bashing a 911 because what if you need to haul wood from Home Depot every week.... don't buy a 911.... buy a truck.

The U.S Government is not forcing any of its citizens to buy a truck. The Government IS forcing its citizens to buy an EV.

A lot of people road trip long distances because they can't afford to fly their family to a destination; they have to drive. Some people, like me, road trip without any detailed planning but have a direction they are headed but no planned path to get there.

I'm not bashing EV for made up stuff, but rather pointing out actual shortcomings that are impactful when comparing EV to ICE. ICE vehicles do not lose 25% - 30% range in the wintertime. ICE vehicles do not slow down charging rates in the winter because of battery temperature requirements. Most vehicle owners can't charge overnight at home. The 2nd tier ownership experience doesn't currently fit the used car market experience. And mostly, people are used to refueling to 100% range in 5 minutes*. That will most likely change as the children now in elementary school are being taught that every time they fart it kills the planet just a little bit more. Those kids, if they even ever drive, will be happy sitting motionless for a half-hour or more to recharge to 80%.

ICE currently fits everyone's transportation profile, EV does not. I think most of us on this thread who have a different perspective of EV have no issue with EV as a transportation choice, but rather the situation where EV is being forced upon society. I'll speak for some of us who are just advocating that the free market should drive the adoption of EV. It is unrefutably clear that the Government is forcing the creation of the EV market. The most recent examples are the $5B Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill, and just this past week, the EPA's new proposed emissions regulations.

* That will most likely change as the children now in elementary school are being taught that every time they fart it kills the planet just a little bit more. Those kids, if they even ever drive, will be happy sitting motionless for a half-hour or more to recharge to 80%.

[akin67]

The government regulates most things in life that when compared to their prior state represented some cost or inconvenience, but overall was meant to have a positive impact on society. At one point you did not need to get a drivers license, buy insurance, have seat belts, obey speed limits, have catalytic converters, and so on and so on. Every one of these resulted in some inconvenience or cost. However, every one of these things had a net positive effect on society. The same logic applies to the government starting to push electric cars. An overwhelming majority of the scientists agree on climate change and the the primary contributors to the acceleration of climate change and the damage this will do to the world. So something needs to be done to slow/reverse this and reducing the use of fossil fuels is at the top of this list. Yes in the initial phases of this transition it may take longer to recharge batteries and may pose additional inconveniences, but over time it will improve. Pound for pound batteries will be able to store considerably more energy than they do today. They will get lighter, cheaper and more efficient. One day we may be driving cars that can travel 1000 miles or more on a single charge and be even more convenient than filling up on gasoline. Cars will have far fewer parts and become far more reliable and maybe even cheaper to purchase and there will be charging stations in every parking lot. You can be an early adopter and buy an electric car now or wait a decade and buy one when much of these developments are realized. No one is forcing you to buy an electric car today.

[StradaRedlands]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'd bet those same Costco people when road tripping are not going to stop at a Costco and wait 20 minutes to fill up. I've never been to a Costco, so I don't understand the mentality of it, but could it be a couple and one gets a head start on shopping while the other waits in line to get gas for $3 since he is already there? That's how I'd play it.

Kirkland Nation joining the chat! It's just one data point, but I 100% plan road trips around Costco fill ups. Last spring we went to Seattle from SoCal, and started with a full tank from San Bernardino. Then Costco at Santa Maria, Santa Cruz, Santa Rosa, and Eureka, CA. A random fill up in Grant's Pass, then back to Costco in Vancouver, WA, Issaquah, Bend, Reno, random something in Bishop, then home.

2500 miles at 19mpg in our GL450 boat. Probably saved $50, so it bought us dinner for one night! I don't recall lines at any of them, at least not long ones. Fam goes into the store for toilets, sometimes we'll get pizza or smoothies. No downside! Anyway long/short is that it's not that hard to figure out a route based on where you want to fill up, and I think fast chargers at Costcos will be a thing in the near future! Costco members only, discounted rates... would work great for us traveling in an EV.

But again, just one data point. I can't be that much of a special unique person though...

Pics to prove it happened: https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjzGUYK

[zero21]

Originally Posted by aerobod

I think it is just a matter of time as technology advances, as investment is dropping off in ICE technology as little incremental gains are being made, but investment money from the manufacturers is now being diverted to BEV development instead.

The McMurtry also took the record at Goodwood this year, too, beating the previous F1 car record held by the MP4/13 by two and a half seconds, yet it is actually road legal in the UK.

It is expensive, but a technology demonstrator in many ways of what is possible.

I like my ICEs but appreciate there is significant change happening, I think the tipping point will be reached that the European manufacturers (at least) just won’t produce them in volume anymore (likely by about 2030 with phase out in 2035 to meet current EU requirements). Norway reached that point in terms of sales about 2 years ago, ICEs account for a tiny fraction of sales there now: https://www.electromaps.com/en/blog/...t-quarter-2023

Anyway, to pull this slightly back on to topic, I’m sure the “2030 H87” BEV will outperform the G87 in pretty well every area, c’est la vie!

The Goodwood record, again speaks to my point of being a one-trick pony in high discharge rates for extremely limited periods of time.

We're not going to get to a point where an electric car can do 10 laps for another 20yrs.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I don’t know. Do you really think they won’t improve upon that? Because if they don’t, they’re screwed. There won’t be a 2035. There won’t be at 2085. If they can’t improve charge speed, electric vehicles will stay nothing more than neighborhood conversation pieces that self proclaimed greenies brag about at weekend tofu barbecues.

We are near the limit for charging speeds for current battery tech. The next big leap in charging speeds will be with solid state batteries. We are at least a decade away from those being used mainstream. Even then they will first be introduced in upper tier vehicles, $100k and up. Before trickling down to less expensive vehicles.

Originally Posted by akin67

One day we may be driving cars that can travel 1000 miles or more on a single charge and be even more convenient than filling up on gasoline.

The ultimate goal really is to have lighter battery packs, that charge faster. Not to have 1000mile range EV's. The days of EV's with 100+kwh packs weighing 1500lbs will be in the past...eventually. When you start doubling or tripling the energy density of the cells, manufacturers can get back to building lighter vehicles.

[M3WC]

Until an EV can win overall at 24hr of Le Mans, we are still living in the dark ages of EV's.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by StradaRedlands

It's just one data point, but I 100% plan road trips around Costco fill ups. Last spring we went to Seattle from SoCal, and started with a full tank from San Bernardino. Then Costco at Santa Maria, Santa Cruz, Santa Rosa, and Eureka, CA. A random fill up in Grant's Pass, then back to Costco in Vancouver, WA, Issaquah, Bend, Reno, random something in Bishop, then home.

2500 miles at 19mpg in our GL450 boat.

No downside! Anyway long/short is that it's not that hard to figure out a route based on where you want to fill up

I did the same on a 3,818-mile trip from Cincinnati to SD, MT, WY, and CO and then back home last fall. The car got 30.6 mpg. Shell stations were my target, and that made planning a couple of parts of the route fun.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by zero21

The Goodwood record, again speaks to my point of being a one-trick pony in high discharge rates for extremely limited periods of time.

We're not going to get to a point where an electric car can do 10 laps for another 20yrs.

Two 20 mins sessions or about 23 laps of a typical 3.5km / 2.2 mile circuit are not a problem now in a Porsche Taycan on a single charge plus distance to and from the fast charger about 15km away from the track. Our track day club has a member with one who has taken it out a couple of times. Brakes are punished hard, but seem to hold up.

The next gen Porsche 718 is due to arrive as a 2025 EV-only model.

[allinon72]

Originally Posted by akin67

The government regulates most things in life that when compared to their prior state represented some cost or inconvenience, but overall was meant to have a positive impact on society. At one point you did not need to get a drivers license, buy insurance, have seat belts, obey speed limits, have catalytic converters, and so on and so on. Every one of these resulted in some inconvenience or cost. However, every one of these things had a net positive effect on society. The same logic applies to the government starting to push electric cars. An overwhelming majority of the scientists agree on climate change and the the primary contributors to the acceleration of climate change and the damage this will do to the world. So something needs to be done to slow/reverse this and reducing the use of fossil fuels is at the top of this list. Yes in the initial phases of this transition it may take longer to recharge batteries and may pose additional inconveniences, but over time it will improve. Pound for pound batteries will be able to store considerably more energy than they do today. They will get lighter, cheaper and more efficient. One day we may be driving cars that can travel 1000 miles or more on a single charge and be even more convenient than filling up on gasoline. Cars will have far fewer parts and become far more reliable and maybe even cheaper to purchase and there will be charging stations in every parking lot. You can be an early adopter and buy an electric car now or wait a decade and buy one when much of these developments are realized. No one is forcing you to buy an electric car today.

Was this written by ChatGPT?

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I don’t know. Do you really think they won’t improve upon that? Because if they don’t, they’re screwed. There won’t be a 2035. There won’t be at 2085. If they can’t improve charge speed, electric vehicles will stay nothing more than neighborhood conversation pieces that self proclaimed greenies brag about at weekend tofu barbecues.

this is so ignorant, its laughable.....

yet somehow they are the fast selling car in america though


Ive had my Tesla for almost three months now.....I've never even had to use a charger station It fills up while I'm asleep magically in the garage
no need to waste 5 minutes(15 minutes at Costco) and $75-100 at gas stations on a weekly basis anymore

You act like people are driving over 300 miles on a daily basis

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

this is so ignorant, its laughable.....

yet somehow they are the fast selling car in america though


Ive had my Tesla for almost three months now.....I've never even had to use a charger station It fills up while I'm asleep magically in the garage
no need to waste 5 minutes and $75-100 at gas stations on a weekly basis anymore

You act like people are driving over 300 miles on a daily basis

Ignorant? Perhaps you should look that word up young man. I would say your statement is multitudes more ignorant unless you claiming that every Tesla/EV owner in the USA has the same driving and charging habits/routines as you? Is that your claim?

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The U.S Government is not forcing any of its citizens to buy a truck. The Government IS forcing its citizens to buy an EV.

.

where????


OPEC is doing a fine job themselves, with the oil and gas prices these days, of forcing people to buy EV's